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The Case for Penal Substitution

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JonC

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Your theory failed your own test. For example, you attempted to use John 3:18 to demand a singular basis for condemnation
Stop.

I see where you are going BUT it is not where I'm at. I am not saying that there is a single basis for condemnation. All I did was provide a passage of Scripture. You have been arguing against the passage, not me.

That is the danger of holding onto one single theory and interpreting Scripture through that lens. You have to qualify passages such as John 3:18 because if taken at face value it may not actually fit into the theory. My point is that there are more aspects - not just one single basis.
 

The Biblicist

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You have been arguing against the passage, not me.

Absolutely false! I have correctly exegeted the passage and you have had no exegetical based response to counter anything I have said! NADA,ZILCH NONE. Do I need to remind you that in many of your past threads you have clearly and explicitly and repeatedly stated that "unbelief" is the singular criteria with regard to Christ as judge??? Everyone following your posts knows this is true. Now you are doing a 180. Shall I go back and repost your posts that deal with your reasons for even quoting John 3:18???
 

The Biblicist

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I am not saying that there is a single basis for condemnation. All I did was provide a passage of Scripture. My point is that there are more aspects - not just one single basis.

I had stated that I believe this condemnation is the Judgment (the final judgment). - Jon #13

That does not, however, allow for an interpretation that those who do not believe are condemned for anything other than their refusal to believe. - Jon - #23

Does "for anything other" mean many other things?
 
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JonC

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When I argue I often do in excess (I emphasize certain things and deemphasize others to demonstrate a difference).

But the issue here is that Scripture provides ideas and aspects about the Atonement that is not contained in the Penal Substitution Theory of the Atonement. Do these passages really matter?

Jesus spoke of “sin” within the context of interpersonal dealings between Christians, and Paul spoke of the atonement as having a result in this aspect of “sin”. Jesus, Paul, and John spoke of “sin” in the context of a power or principle. More often than not, Paul deals with “sin” as a power that Christ overcame in order to free mankind from its grip. The primary theme of the Atonement in Scripture a freedom from the bondage of sin and death with a focus on the resurrection.

Do these things, these passages and doctrines, really matter or are they merely products of the Atonement?

That is the real difference here. I attend a church that holds to Penal Substitution Theory. I have no problem with that. But there is a need to consider Scripture in full, not in part.

Half of a truth simply does not do justice to this doctrine.
 

JonC

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I had stated that I believe this condemnation is the Judgment (the final judgment). - Jon #13

That does not, however, allow for an interpretation that those who do not believe are condemned for anything other than their refusal to believe. - Jon - #23

Does "for anything other" mean many other things?
My argument is not that those who are condemned are not still in their sins. My argument is that they are condemned because they do not believe in Christ - this is why they remain in their sins and why they will be condemned at the Judgment (the final judgment). This, I believe, is why it is worded as all judgment being given to the Son (while at the same time the Son judging no one). They are already condemned because they do not believe.

Let me use an example that may help -

Todd fell into the ocean. A lifeboat came by. Todd refused help and drowned. Why did Todd drown? He drowned because he refused to get into the lifeboat. This is why he remained in the ocean and drowned for falling in.

It is not "either" or, but the ultimate condemnation is a refusal to believe. This is why they remain in their sins.
 

The Biblicist

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When I argue I often do in excess (I emphasize certain things and deemphasize others to demonstrate a difference).

No, you flatly make mistakes and then try to recover by using such statements as this

But the issue here is that Scripture provides ideas and aspects about the Atonement that is not contained in the Penal Substitution Theory of the Atonement.
Absolutely and completely and utterly false!


Jesus spoke of “sin” within the context of interpersonal dealings between Christians, and Paul spoke of the atonement as having a result in this aspect of “sin”. Jesus, Paul, and John spoke of “sin” in the context of a power or principle. More often than not, Paul deals with “sin” as a power that Christ overcame in order to free mankind from its grip. The primary theme of the Atonement in Scripture a freedom from the bondage of sin and death with a focus on the resurrection

In every single one of these contexts sin is a moral issue! In interpersonal relations it is a moral issue. As a principle and power it is set in a context that is undeniably a MORAL issue just read Romans 7:14-15, 18-21 as Paul repeated contrast "good" and "evil" when describing this "law of sin".

NOWHERE does the bible teach that sin has inherent power in and of itself - NOWHERE! The Bible teaches that its power is in its relationship to MORAL LAW - 1 Cor. 15:56. It's power is in relationship with the "power" of Satan (Eph. 2:2-3) as expressed in MORAL ISSUES.

What you are teaching is the epitomy of "half-truths"
 

The Biblicist

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My argument is

That does not, however, allow for an interpretation that those who do not believe are condemned for anything other than their refusal to believe. - Jon - #23

There is no ambiguity in the above statement. The words "for anything other" is completely restrictive in meaning. If you don't mean what you clearly say until what you say is proven wrong and then you deny that is what you meant - give me a break! However, I am glad you now have changed your view and you have changed your view of John 3:18 whether you admit it or not as the record is the record.






Let me use an example that may help -

Todd fell into the ocean. A lifeboat came by. Todd refused help and drowned. Why did Todd drown? He drowned because he refused to get into the lifeboat. This is why he remained in the ocean and drowned for falling in.

It is not "either" or, but the ultimate condemnation is a refusal to believe. This is why they remain in their sins.

Your example is completly flawed! Why did Todd fall into the ocean? Why is man condemned in the first place? Not because of unbelief but the Bible repeated and explicitly states in the most unambiguous clearest language possible -

for the judgment was by one to condemnation,
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;


This is the primary cause for condemnation. This is why Todd fell into the ocean. What Todd did AFTER he fell into the ocean are consequential condemnations not the primary condemnation. The fallen nature, the state of unbelief are not the primary causes for condemnation but are consequences. NOTHING experiential in your life is the primary cause for your condemnation but "by the offence of ONE...came UPON ALL MEN to condemnation."
 

Reformed1689

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I do not expect others to do what I will not. (I would much prefer people stick to Scripture itself than resort to defending and holding a systematic theory of doctrine....at least such important a doctrine).

Do I understand you to say that Systematic Theology has no value?
 

percho

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I have questions for all.

Was not Adam the very first man in need of PSA?

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

Now, I believe that applied to Adam, yet I ask; How could that apply to Adam? What could Adam have known, about the only begotten Son of God? ----- What, Name?

Should Adam have named, one, born to Eve, Jesus?

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Matt 1:20,23

Was Eve the first virgin?

BTW, I am not trying to stir things up. I am truly asking questions from my mind. Consider what the Word of God says concerning what Eve says concerning Cain in Gen 4:1 Check all translations. LORD, first time we know of she used this name. Jehovah
 
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JonC

Moderator
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That does not, however, allow for an interpretation that those who do not believe are condemned for anything other than their refusal to believe. - Jon - #23
Exactly. Those who do not believe are condemned already because (the "why") they do not believe in the only begotten Son of God. The Atonement is God reconciling the world to Himself. It is Christ-centered. It is not about the law, but about Christ. Salvation is Christ-centered AND judgment is Christ-centered. The reason people are condemned is that they do not believe in Christ.

The idea that the passage is merely a window though which we should see something else is absurd. All have sinned and all have fallen short of the glory of God. The condemnation is not this sin but that they do not believe (Jesus did not present a half-truth in the passage). This is why they remain in their sins, but their ultimate condemnation is a rejection of Christ.

Your example is completly flawed! Why did Todd fall into the ocean? Why is man condemned in the first place?
It does not matter why Todd fell into the ocean. The fact of the matter is he fell in and salvation had come. But he refused to get in the boat.

The fatal flaw of your argument is that you want to go back and find out exactly how this condemnation occurred. Scripture tells us that it was through Adam's transgression. BUT even here, ask yourself why did Adam sin. Was he "tricked"? Not really. He was deceived but not in that God willed him to eat the fruit. He put his belief in his own hands (the fruit was desirable to make one wise, to be like God). Even here the root cause is one of belief.

So Christ's words stand - those who do not believe are condemned already because they do not believe in the only begotten of Son. These remain in their sin and God's wrath will be poured out "on that day".
 

The Biblicist

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It does not matter why Todd fell into the ocean.

This is the entire essence of your error!

It does not matter to you because it utterly repudiates your whole theory but it is essential to God's view of atonement. To say the initial cause which defines the primary problem does not matter demonstrates the absolute bankruptcy of your theory as your theory necessarily is built on half-truths, partial truths at the expense of the whole truth. Your theory depends upon not merely ignoring the primary cause of condemnation but repudiating it and then replacing it with "unbeleif."

It does matter why Todd fell into the ocean, it does matter why man fell into condemnation because everything that follows is mere consequential rather than causual condemnations. Your theory attempts to make the whole taco out of the partial and consequential while repudiating the precise cause of condemnation and thus the necessary remedy or solution for the PRIMARY problem.
 

The Biblicist

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Exactly. Those who do not believe are condemned already because (the "why") they do not believe in the only begotten Son of God.
You are still repeating your eisgetical based error! John 3:18 in context repudiates that reasoning as "unbelief" is a symptom condemnation while the depraved heart is the underlying experiential causual condemnation (v. 19). Both of these are symptomatic and consequential to the real cause of condemnation (Rom. 5:16,18). So, you are doubling down on pure error.
 

The Biblicist

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The fatal flaw of your argument is that you want to go back and find out exactly how this condemnation occurred. Scripture tells us that it was through Adam's transgression. BUT even here, ask yourself why did Adam sin. Was he "tricked"? Not really. He was deceived but not in that God willed him to eat the fruit. He put his belief in his own hands (the fruit was desirable to make one wise, to be like God). Even here the root cause is one of belief.

False! He did not exercise faith in anything but the Bible says it was a WILLFUL act of pure defiance - he knew better but intentionally, purposefully, and willfullly sinned. NO faith was involved as willful sin does not require or include faith of any kind but is rather pure rebellion with full knowledge of the facts.
 

The Biblicist

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The idea that the passage is merely a window though which we should see something else is absurd.
The only thing that is "absurd" is your eisgetical veiw of this passage which has been thoroughly exposed and you have absolutely no comeback except to repeat your totally unfounded assertion! I placed hard exegetical facts before you and your response???? NADA, ZILCH, NONE! You simply reassert your proven error.


The condemnation is not this sin

Amazing! Utterly amazing! You flatly contradict the clear express unambiguous word of God which says the very opposite!!!

And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) {by one man’s … : or, by one offence }
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;


Jon says "the condemnation is not this sin" but Paul says "by the offence of one...came upon all men to condemnation"! A direct contradiction between Jon and Paul with regard to this SINGULAR sin by this SINGULAR man!! Who shall we believe? I think I will go with Paul because he is inspired and Jon is not!

Jon not only reverses the cause and effect with regard to condemnation of all men but repudiates the stated cause of condemnation upon all men!

Not only so, but John attempts to make the experiential causes for condemnation found in the life of man (which are consequential to the real cause) to be the primary cause of condemnation for all man. Why? Because it is by this one sin that death entered the world in the full sense of the term "death" = spiritual and physical and Jon's theory stands or falls upon denying spiritual death entered the world when in fact that is precisely what Jesus is definng as the underlying cause for unbelief in John 3:18-20. Why "unbelief"? Because the human spiritual condition LOVES darkness and HATES light and that is why unbelief occurs due to another underlying cause which itself has been "passed" down from Adam due to his ONE SIN.

This is another reason why your view is such a dangerous error!
 
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MB

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It would take an enormous ego to think I can tread new ground on the doctrine of Penal Substitution. More accomplished theologians have written on this topic with greater clarity and insight. The Reformer John Calvin wrote eloquently on the topic as did the modern English theologian J.I. Packer. Charles Spurgeon also made the doctrine a charge to his ministerial students. The doctrine is often accused of being a modern invention with no foundation in church history from the time of the Apostles to the Reformation. This criticism does not consider the multitude of problems the church dealt with in the early Patristic Age. The Patristic Age was rife with error and often came to erroneous, if not heretical conclusions. By the beginning of the 5th Century, the papacy plunged Christendom into a millennium of increasing error and idolatry. Although there were a few wicks of gospel truth left burning during this time, they were not enough to point the masses to Christ. A temperamental Benedictine Monk named Martin Luther was used by God to challenge the status quo. What became known as the Reformation unleashed a torrent of opposition against Rome. The Word of God was now in the hands of the people and the truths that Rome had suppressed were now being proclaimed; first in continental Europe and then in Scotland and England. One of the most consequential of these truths was the teaching that Jesus Christ died to satisfy God’s wrath against sin and to pay the sin-debt for the Elect. This teaching is better known as Penal Substitution. The word “penal” means “of, relating to, or involving punishment”. Substitution means “the act, process, or result of substituting one thing for another”. Ergo, Penal Substitution teaches that Jesus was punished on behalf of another. Isaiah 53:5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.” Another thread on the Atonement began with a discussion about sin. It is right that this thread starts with the same topic.

One accepted definition of sin by theologians is, “Thoughts, words, or deeds that constitute a deliberate violation of God’s will and law and are thus sinful”. The first example we see of sin is recorded in Genesis 3:6. God expressly commanded Adam not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil under penalty of death (Gen. 2:17). With full knowledge of God’s command, Adam disobeyed God and ate the forbidden fruit. Because of his sin, Adam experienced two types of death. First, Adam’s body began the slow but deliberate march towards decay and physical death (Gen. 5:5). Second, Adam experienced spiritual separation from God. This is what the Apostle Paul refers to as νεκροὺς τοῖς παραπτώμασιν καὶ ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις (nekros tois paraptomasin kai tois harmatias), dead in trespasses and sins. This is commonly referred to as being spiritually dead. All those who are outside of Christ are described this way (Eph. 2:1; Col. 2:13). Being spiritually dead means that the sinner is in a state of sin and separated from a right relationship with God. A person is a sinner for two reasons. First, they are born into a fallen state because of the sin of Adam (Rom. 5:12). The 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith describes it thus, “They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free.” This view of the imputation of sin is referred to as the Federal Headship View. Adam was the first human being. He was created without sin. Neither his mind nor his body had experienced the corruption of sin. Adam acted as humanity’s fair and just representative. In his federal capacity, Adam acted on our behalf. When Adam sinned it was as though we sinned through his agency. This is where original sin comes from.

continued...
The underlined above is what makes this Non scriptural nonsense. Jesus died for the world no matter how hard Calvinist twist this scripture to make it agree with there man made doctrine of unconditional election. It is false to claim that Jesus died only for the elect when scripture says He died for the world. Do you really have to discard Jn 3:16 to make it fit your pitiful doctrine?
MB
 

Reformed1689

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Jesus died for the world no matter how hard Calvinist twist this scripture to make it agree with there man made doctrine of unconditional election.
There are plenty of verses regarding unconditional election. Look at Romans 8 and 9.

It is false to claim that Jesus died only for the elect when scripture says He died for the world. Do you really have to discard Jn 3:16 to make it fit your pitiful doctrine?

This argument would be sound if world only meant one thing all the time. But we know, and I am sure you know too, that it doesn't.
 

The Biblicist

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It does not matter why Todd fell into the ocean.

May I ask you from what primary source is the fallen nature described by Christ in John 3:19-20 derived? What is its origin? Is it "passed" down from Adam and thus inherent in all conceived in the womb or is it derived from post birth decisions?
 

JonC

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Looking at the posts, @Reformed , something stands out to me.

No one here is condemning me for what I believe. Everyone here is condemning me for what I do not believe.

The “problem” is not that I believe something that is not in the Bible. It is that I believe the Atonement addresses sin which I believe is more than a moral issue (which is in the Bible, but not in the Theory in question).

My greatest heresy seems to be that I believe Adam’s sin was at its core an expression of disbelief in God. Something had to be behind the action (Adam did not just “flip a coin”). I believe this is why those who are condemned are condemned for their rejection of Christ and remain in their transgressions (and judgment will be exercised because of those transgressions).
 
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