Was Nero/Rome the "Beast"?

[robycop3]

I started this thread here so our non-Baptist brethren could chime in if they wish. It's a continuation of a thread in the Baptist theology sub-forum about the religion of the 'beast, started by Black Sheep.

Lodic posted, in reply to one of my posts:

Yes, the Roman Empire did nearly collapse from within with the "Year of the Four Emperors" before Vespasian took over. "The Beast" refers to both Rome and Nero. That's why Nero's suicide supports this case. Still not sure about the details of Rev. 19:20. This may refer to final judgment. Regardless, it doesn't sway me to rejoin the "futurist" camp.

My answer: No, the Roman empire did NOT nearly collapse then. The "Pax Romana" remained in place, with the Senate & tribunal system functioning quite well at that time. The only near-chaos was in the Caesarship.

"The beast" refers both to the coming antichrist and his empire, which will at first be made from the peoples & nations of the old Roman empires. Neither of those empires was worldwide, but here's what GOD has to say about the future empire:

Rev. 13:7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

THAT doesn't leave out too many people, eh?

And Nero's having his secretary stab him with a sword, leading to his death, is one fact which rules out his having been the antichrist, as here's one of the Scriptural criteria for the antichrist:

Rev. 19: 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast ***alive*** into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

GOD'S WORD above should end all goofy notions that Nero was the antichrist! How can any Christian still believe that garbage in face of this Scripture, let alone other Scriptural criteria for the antichrist that Nero didn't fulfill ?????????????????????????????

So, we see, both the notion nero was the AC & the notion that old Rome was the 'beast' empire are proven false by GOD'S WORD!

 

[kyredneck]

The book was written during the sixth 'head' of the beast.

 

[robycop3]

The book was written during the sixth 'head' of the beast.

We're KINDA on the same page. The previous heads were Assyria, Egypt, Babylon, Medo-Persia, & Greece. The 7th was the Holy Roman empire (ended 1806) scripture sez the 8th will be of the 7th, & we know the 7th was of the 6th, so the beast's empire will be at first formed from the peoples/nations that were in the old Roman empires. (Then, it'll take in most of the rest of the world.)

 

[kyredneck]

We're KINDA on the same page.

Let's see. Let's begin at the beginning.

15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3

"..."And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel" (Gen. 3:15).....Here we have the beginning and germ of all prophecy." A.W. Pink

Your thoughts on Genesis 3:15?

It IS pertinent to the OP.

 

[robycop3]

Let's see. Let's begin at the beginning.

15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3

"..."And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel" (Gen. 3:15).....Here we have the beginning and germ of all prophecy." A.W. Pink

Your thoughts on Genesis 3:15?

It IS pertinent to the OP.

We've seen this emnity ever since Cain murdered Abel. it won't end til Satan is cast into the lake of fire.

While Nero was a bad boy, he was not the "beast", as he did not meet many Scriptural criteria for the beast.

 

[blacksheep]

2 Thessalonians 2:8
“And then the lawless one [that is one of the titles given to the coming world leader] will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.”

The Bible says this “lawless one,” the Antichrist, will be brought to an end by the Lord. When? At “His coming!”

Did you get that? The “lawless one,” the Antichrist, will be brought to an end by “the Lord” Himself at “His coming” (2 Thess. 2:8, Rev. 19:19-20). This verse is very problematic for the preterist viewpoint.

This was not how Nero died. Suetonius (a first century Roman historian) tells us that Nero committed suicide at the age of 31, when “he drove a dagger into his throat.” [Source: Suetonius (c.69 – c.140) The Lives of the Twelve Caesars, “he drove a dagger into his throat”]. Far from being consumed by the breath of Christ at His coming, Nero actually took his own life.

Nero committed suicide two years BEFORE preterists say Jesus came back. Preterists believe Jesus’ prophecy about coming back in Matthew 24 was fulfilled in A.D. 70. But Nero committed suicide in June of 68, two years BEFORE A.D. 70!

 

[church mouse guy]

For the record, Rome was very strong until at least 180 AD and Marcus Aurelius.

 

[robycop3]

2 Thessalonians 2:8
“And then the lawless one [that is one of the titles given to the coming world leader] will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.”

The Bible says this “lawless one,” the Antichrist, will be brought to an end by the Lord. When? At “His coming!”

Did you get that? The “lawless one,” the Antichrist, will be brought to an end by “the Lord” Himself at “His coming” (2 Thess. 2:8, Rev. 19:19-20). This verse is very problematic for the preterist viewpoint.

This was not how Nero died. Suetonius (a first century Roman historian) tells us that Nero committed suicide at the age of 31, when “he drove a dagger into his throat.” [Source: Suetonius (c.69 – c.140) The Lives of the Twelve Caesars, “he drove a dagger into his throat”]. Far from being consumed by the breath of Christ at His coming, Nero actually took his own life.

Nero committed suicide two years BEFORE preterists say Jesus came back. Preterists believe Jesus’ prophecy about coming back in Matthew 24 was fulfilled in A.D. 70. But Nero committed suicide in June of 68, two years BEFORE A.D. 70!

Well, actually, Nero died by having his secretary, Epiphrodatus, stab him with a sword.

When General Galba overthrew Nero, he sent men to arrest him, knowing Nero was in a villa 4 miles outside Rome. When those men approached, Nero ordered Epaphroditus to stab him. Those men tried vainly to keep him alive. Among Nero's last words were "What an artist dies with me", & "Too late! This is fidelity!" His body was buried in the Ahenobarbus family cemetery in what's now the Pincian Hill area of Rome.

There are several other Scriptural criteria for the AC that Nero did not fulfill, while the TRUE AC must fulfill all of them to the letter. Plainly, Nero was NOT the beast/AC, as history compared to Scripture plainly proves.

 

[robycop3]

2 Thessalonians 2:8
“And then the lawless one [that is one of the titles given to the coming world leader] will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.”

The Bible says this “lawless one,” the Antichrist, will be brought to an end by the Lord. When? At “His coming!”

Did you get that? The “lawless one,” the Antichrist, will be brought to an end by “the Lord” Himself at “His coming” (2 Thess. 2:8, Rev. 19:19-20). This verse is very problematic for the preterist viewpoint.

This was not how Nero died. Suetonius (a first century Roman historian) tells us that Nero committed suicide at the age of 31, when “he drove a dagger into his throat.” [Source: Suetonius (c.69 – c.140) The Lives of the Twelve Caesars, “he drove a dagger into his throat”]. Far from being consumed by the breath of Christ at His coming, Nero actually took his own life.

Nero committed suicide two years BEFORE preterists say Jesus came back. Preterists believe Jesus’ prophecy about coming back in Matthew 24 was fulfilled in A.D. 70. But Nero committed suicide in June of 68, two years BEFORE A.D. 70!

Yes; Jesus will cast the AC & false prophet alive into the LOF. While Rev. 19 doesn't directly say Jesus will do it, combining its statement with that of 2 Thess. 2:8 shows He will.

 

[kyredneck]

We've seen this emnity ever since Cain murdered Abel. it won't end til Satan is cast into the lake of fire.

Wow. That's deep.

 

[robycop3]

Wow. That's deep.

Well, it's TRUE. Remember, when Jesus prophesied the "days of vengeance" against that generation of Jews, He began it with Abel's murder. (Matt. 23:34-36)

 

[Yeshua1]

I started this thread here so our non-Baptist brethren could chime in if they wish. It's a continuation of a thread in the Baptist theology sub-forum about the religion of the 'beast, started by Black Sheep.

Lodic posted, in reply to one of my posts:



My answer: No, the Roman empire did NOT nearly collapse then. The "Pax Romana" remained in place, with the Senate & tribunal system functioning quite well at that time. The only near-chaos was in the Caesarship.

"The beast" refers both to the coming antichrist and his empire, which will at first be made from the peoples & nations of the old Roman empires. Neither of those empires was worldwide, but here's what GOD has to say about the future empire:

Rev. 13:7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

THAT doesn't leave out too many people, eh?

And Nero's having his secretary stab him with a sword, leading to his death, is one fact which rules out his having been the antichrist, as here's one of the Scriptural criteria for the antichrist:

Rev. 19: 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast ***alive*** into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

GOD'S WORD above should end all goofy notions that Nero was the antichrist! How can any Christian still believe that garbage in face of this Scripture, let alone other Scriptural criteria for the antichrist that Nero didn't fulfill ?????????????????????????????

So, we see, both the notion nero was the AC & the notion that old Rome was the 'beast' empire are proven false by GOD'S WORD!

Jesus did not return and slay him at that time!

 

[robycop3]

The facts of history about Nero's life are clear. He was never in Jerusalem, and he died, as was witnessed by several people, & his body was buried. Jesus did NOT cast him alive into the LOF, a fact, which, by itself, PROVES Nero was NOT the "beast".

 

[Grasshopper]

"The beast" refers both to the coming antichrist and his empire,


let alone other Scriptural criteria for the antichrist that Nero didn't fulfill ?????????????????????????????

Perhaps you can show us where “Antichrist” is found in Revelation or any other prophetic text.

While your at it go ahead and give us the scriptural criteria for this “Antichrist” you see all over Revelation.


https://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/walker-don_pp_01.html

 

[robycop3]

Perhaps you can show us where “Antichrist” is found in Revelation or any other prophetic text.

While your at it go ahead and give us the scriptural criteria for this “Antichrist” you see all over Revelation.


https://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/walker-don_pp_01.html

"Antichrist" is a term that's largely implied in Scripture, as is "Holy Trinity" While John briefly mentioned antichrist, he gave its criterion as being against Christ or indifferent toward Him.

Now, the "beast, man of sin, that Wicked" who shall enter the temple & declare himself God will be the penultimate antichrist, the ultimate one being Satan. Remember, he will go against the saints & overcome them.

And this "man of sin", beast, etc. will be one man. And it's been irrefutably shown that Nero was NOT that man. The pret nonsense is wrong. The reasons are shown in the OP of this thread. Daniel called him "the prince who is to come" " from the people that shall destroy Jerusalem", showing he will be of Roman descent. That covers a lotta ground, as there are descendants of Romans in most world nations. Paul calls him one man.Revelation calls him one man, but with a miracle-working false prophet, the "beast from the earth" as his sidekick.

The preterist stuff in your link is mostly nonsense. There are umpteen systems of gematria which can be used to make almost any name to add up to 666, including many names of inanimate, lifeless objects. And your source seems to rely heavily upon the writings of Josephus, whose main purpose in his writings was to entertain Vespasian & thus keep his own head upon his neck.

Some of the antichrist's criteria are that he shall root up three other rulers, that his forces will be unbeatable in battle against other men, that he shall form an 8th empire from the remains of the 6th & 7th, the old Roman empires, that he shall enter the temple in Jerusalem, set up his image in it, & declare himself to be above God or anything else worshipped as a god, & that, when Jesus returns, he shall send his army to attack Him, but that he & the false prophet shall be cast alive into the lake of fire. And Nero did NONE of those things.

Yes, Nero was a bad boy, but so were many others before & after him. And NONE have fulfilled ALL the Scriptural criteria for the beast/antichrist.