The Conundrom.

[37818]

Arminaism and Calvinism share some beliefs.

Both believe those who are God's sheep are born from God.
". . . My sheep hear my voice, . . ." -- John 10:27 (Compare with John 8:47; John 18:37)
So both sides agree that those who are born of God heed Jesus' teachings.
Here is the difference, regeneration after faith in Christ versus regeneration before faith in Christ.

Now being God's sheep is explicitly the prereqisit to heeding Christ's words.
Now how do the ones called God's sheep to be God's sheep before they hear?
And how is that if faith precedes regeneration?
If one is not God's sheep until they are born of God?

 

[kyredneck]

Here is the difference, regeneration after faith in Christ versus regeneration before faith in Christ.

Unless it's 'hyper-Monergism' (like me), there's only a couple nanoseconds difference between the two. So close that 'regeneration' appears to be simultaneous with belief in both views, so what's the big deal with only a couple nanoseconds difference?

 

[kyredneck]

Now how do the ones called God's sheep to be God's sheep before they hear?

8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3 YLT

No 'hearing' involved in it. John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit and jumped for joy in his mother's womb, David was made to hope while on his mother's breast, preachers don't convey the Spirit of God, He goes where He wants.

 

[Gup20]

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB) 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Acts 11:16-17 (NASB) 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"

The Bible is explicit as to whether the indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes before or after belief. It clearly comes after belief.

 

[kyredneck]

The Bible is explicit as to whether the indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes before or after belief. It clearly comes after belief.

Born of the Spirit and indwelling of the Spirit two different things.

The heavenly birth:
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; Jn 3

...is synonymous with 'born of the Spirit':
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.`Jn 3

Isaac was born from above (after the Spirit) by the time of his weaning:
26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. Gal 4

Before one can enter or even see the kingdom of God one must first be born from above:
3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, `How is a man able to be born, being old? is he able into the womb of his mother a second time to enter, and to be born?`
5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God; Jn 3

 

[Reformed]

Arminaism and Calvinism share some beliefs.

Both believe those who are God's sheep are born from God.
". . . My sheep hear my voice, . . ." -- John 10:27 (Compare with John 8:47; John 18:37)
So both sides agree that those who are born of God heed Jesus' teachings.
Here is the difference, regeneration after faith in Christ versus regeneration before faith in Christ.

Now being God's sheep is explicitly the prereqisit to heeding Christ's words.
Now how do the ones called God's sheep to be God's sheep before they hear?
And how is that if faith precedes regeneration?
If one is not God's sheep until they are born of God?

Actually, the difference starts with election. Did God choose the Elect in eternity past without any condition on their part that induced Him to save them? Regeneration comes after that.

 

[Gup20]

Born of the Spirit and indwelling of the Spirit two different things.

The heavenly birth:
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; Jn 3

...is synonymous with 'born of the Spirit':
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.`Jn 3

Isaac was born from above (after the Spirit) by the time of his weaning:
26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. Gal 4

Before one can enter or even see the kingdom of God one must first be born from above:
3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, `How is a man able to be born, being old? is he able into the womb of his mother a second time to enter, and to be born?`
5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God; Jn 3

This distinction is irrelevant to the sequence. Man & the Holy Spirit join to become a new creature (like a man & woman join to produce new life)... viola... born again. It still relies upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which comes AFTER one has faith in the gospel of Christ.

Romans 8:15-17 (NASB) 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (NASB) Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
Galatians 3:29 (NASB) And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

 

[Gup20]

Actually, the difference starts with election. Did God choose the Elect in eternity past without any condition on their part that induced Him to save them? Regeneration comes after that.

Just how does God choose whom His holy people are?

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy peopleto the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen youto be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenantand His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

Nehemiah 9:7
You are the LORD God, Who chose AbramAnd brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You,And made a covenant with himTo give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.

John 6:64
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginningwho they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, “For this reasonI have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

1Peter 1:2
[chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

John Calvin himself said of God’s predestined elect, “God has attested this [predestination] not only in individual persons, but has given us an example of it in the whole offspring of Abraham."

So even John Calvin recognized that God chose Abraham’s descendants as a group, and not each person individually. God’s elect (or chosen) are those who inherit the oath he made with Abraham. Those who are qualified as heirs of the promise or covenant.

Galatians 3:7
Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:9
So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenantsand the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Calvin didn’t realize that allChristians are saved by becoming qualified as part of the group of the “offspring of Abraham.” He mistakenly thought we all obtain righteousness the same way Abraham did – directly for his faith. However, this would mean that Christ (or some other sinless figures) would have to die once for each person who was saved – a life for a life. In the same way that we all inherited death from Adam, so too have we all inherited Christ’s righteousness. Christ directly exchanged (redeemed) His righteousness with Abraham, and then God promised Abraham that this righteousness would be an inheritance to all his descendants.

As Deuteronomy 30 says, you don't need to be regenerated to make the choice... it is a choice God commands us to make, not a choice God makes in heaven.

 

[kyredneck]

indwelling of the Holy Spirit which comes AFTER one has faith in the gospel of Christ.

Man does not convey the Spirit of God. He goes where He wants, he is not constrained only to where His messengers can carry Him:

8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.`Jn 3

15 for he shall be great before the Lord, and wine and strong drink he may not drink, and of the Holy Spirit he shall be full, even from his mother`s womb;
41 And it came to pass, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe did leap in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit,
44 for, lo, when the voice of thy salutation came to my ears, leap in gladness did the babe in my womb; Lu 1

Born of the Spirit and indwelling of the Spirit two different things.

 

[37818]

Unless it's 'hyper-Monergism' (like me), there's only a couple nanoseconds difference between the two. So close that 'regeneration' appears to be simultaneous with belief in both views, so what's the big deal with only a couple nanoseconds difference?

The law of the excuded middle. The issue of regeneration preceding faith versus faith preceding regeneration. And in this thread, being of God prior to faith. It would certianly seem that regeneration precedes faith. Yet, I hold that faith precedes regeneration.

 

[37818]

Actually, the difference starts with election. Did God choose the Elect in eternity past without any condition on their part that induced Him to save them? Regeneration comes after that.

There is one primary condition: Without merit on the part of those whom He chooses.


Notice in the Judgement referenced in Matthew 7:21-23, those who were not in God's will where trusting in what they thought they had done, trusting in their merit they thought they had.

 

[Reformed]

There is one primary condition: Without merit on the part of those whom He chooses.


Notice in the Judgement referenced in Matthew 7:21-23, those who were not in God's will where trusting in what they thought they had done, trusting in their merit they thought they had.

That is what we see in Titus:

Titus 3:5-7 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (emphasis mine)

 

[Benjamin]

Unless it's 'hyper-Monergism' (like me), there's only a couple nanoseconds difference between the two. So close that 'regeneration' appears to be simultaneous with belief in both views, so what's the big deal with only a couple nanoseconds difference?

Yeah, I’m sure that is the knowledge the Word was instructing us in – that faith proceeds regeneration but only by a nanosecond or two/an amount of time insignificant to us – which is no big deal seems it’s so quick that you would never know, just thought you should be aware that faith comes first, totally unimportant though, ...really.

 

[kyredneck]

Yeah, I’m sure that is the knowledge the Word was instructing us in – that faith proceeds regeneration but only by a nanosecond or two/an amount of time insignificant to us – which is no big deal seems it’s so quick that you would never know, just thought you should be aware that faith comes first, totally unimportant though, ...really.

My post was sarcasm, fyi, kinda sorta aimed at the likes of @Reformed and other robots following the script that claim 'regeneration before faith', but say couldn't be no more than a nanosecond before.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that all of His elect are born, from the womb, 'regenerate', like John the Baptist and Paul.

 

[Gup20]

Man does not convey the Spirit of God. He goes where He wants, he is not constrained only to where His messengers can carry Him:

8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.`Jn 3

15 for he shall be great before the Lord, and wine and strong drink he may not drink, and of the Holy Spirit he shall be full, even from his mother`s womb;
41 And it came to pass, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe did leap in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit,
44 for, lo, when the voice of thy salutation came to my ears, leap in gladness did the babe in my womb; Lu 1

Acts 2:38 (NASB)
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:45 (NASB)
All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

The Holy Spirit is a gift from the giver of gifts.

Romans 3:24 (NASB)
being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:23 (NASB)
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 2:8 (NASB)
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Do you suppose the Holy Spirit has the option of not going to whom the Father has given Him?

God chose a group of people - the descendants of Abraham. When we have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had, then we are qualified as the descendants of Abraham and become members of the chosen group. Think of it as “open enrollment” in the group known as the elect.

Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

So who makes the choice for who can join this group?

Deuteronomy 30:1
So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,

Deuteronomy 30:6
Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

Deuteronomy 30:11
For this commandment which I command you todayis not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heavenfor us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?
13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the seafor us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
15 See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heavenand earthto witnessagainst you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose lifein order that you may live, you and your descendants,


The most common objection to Deuteronomy 30 comes from those who say this is part of the covenant of The Law and doesn’t pertain to the covenant of faith. However, Paul sets the record straight about the nature of the choice offered by Deuteronomy 30 in Romans 10:

Romans 10:5
For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.
6 But the righteousness based on faithspeaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),
7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heartthat God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Isaiah 28:16
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone [for] the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes [in it] will not be disturbed.

This human choice in Deuteronomy 30 comes beforeregeneration, and afterone has believed.

 

[Gup20]

That is what we see in Titus:

Titus 3:5-7 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (emphasis mine)

Oh, I like that one. I will add it to my study which disproves Calvinism (and disproves Arminianism also).

Gal 3:6-9, 16 with Gen 15:5-6 and Gen 17:4-7 tells us the way we become qualified as the heirs mentioned in Titus 3:7... by following the example of the very first person the Bible says was saved by grace through faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[37818]

Ok. But those who are of God are the ones who through faith are saved. So how are we of God prior to being born again? Calvinist position is regenration prior to faith. But faith is prior to regeneration. And those who hear God's word are of God prior to hearing (John 8:47; John 10:26-27).

 

[Gup20]

John 8:31
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
38 “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham.
40 “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
41 “You are doing the deeds of your father.”They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44 “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Here, we see that Jesus was saying that if they had faith in him, they would be saved, or made righteous and free from sin and death. They say “we are not slaves” but Jesus responds that anyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. Then, they make the point that they are Abraham’s descendants. Jesus says “If you were Abraham’s descendant, you would do what Abraham did”. What did Abraham do? He believed the gospel of Jesus Christ! Jesus is saying if they were truly Abraham’s descendants as God defines it, they would believe in Him. Jesus goes on to say that their father is the devil, thereby demonstrating that being a descendant of Abraham in God’s eyes is not a literal, but spiritual kinship. But take special note of verse 43 of John 8. I used to skip over this verse, but God is showed me the meaning of that verse; Jesus asks – “Why is it that you do not understand?” Then Jesus answers his own question; “it is that you cannot hear my word.” Remember faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:16-17,Isaiah 53:1). Jesus is saying they do not have faith because they do not hear His word, confirming they did not have faith in Him, and then pronouncing them disqualified as children of God and of Abraham, and instead qualified as children of Satan.

Colossians 1:12
giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified usto share in the inheritanceof the saints in Light.

Later in John 8, Jesus confirms that Abraham did indeed have faith in Him:

John 8:56
“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

Another apostle, Peter, also had this view of adoption to the family of Abraham through faith.

1 Peter 3:4
4 but [let it be] the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.
5 For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands;
6 just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.

John 10 is like John 6:44. People never read on to the “why” of John 6:44 in John 6:64-65

John 6:64-65 (NASB) 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

BECAUSE Jesus knew from the beginning who would & who would not have faith. Because of this foreknowledge he said no one can come unless it is granted. So then the deciding factor on whom will be drawn is whom God had foreknowledge that they would have faith.

1Peter 1:2
[chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

 

[Reformed]

So how are we of God prior to being born again?

Again, the key to understanding this is election:

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,

God did not choose His elect based on anything they would do in the future, including faith. He predestined His elect, "according to the kind intention of His will" (Ephesians 1:5). Election comes before repentance and faith. As far as being of God prior to conversion, that is an incorrect assumption. No one is "of God" until they are converted. Paul, (referring to the Christian's prior spiritual condition) writes, "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest" (Ephesians 2:1-3). Before we are converted we are "children of wrath". That is certainly not "of God".

 

[tyndale1946]

Again, the key to understanding this is election:

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,

God did not choose His elect based on anything they would do in the future, including faith. He predestined His elect, "according to the kind intention of His will" (Ephesians 1:5). Election comes before repentance and faith. As far as being of God prior to conversion, that is an incorrect assumption. No one is "of God" until they are converted. Paul, (referring to the Christian's prior spiritual condition) writes, "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest" (Ephesians 2:1-3). Before we are converted we are "children of wrath". That is certainly not "of God".

I have a question on regeneration... In your natural birth did you believe and then you knew who your natural father was or were you made alive and then came to believe?... I can also go with what Kentucky said... Birth before belief... Now explain one thief on the cross?... Had a heart transplant didn't he?... Brother Glen