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The Conundrom.

Gup20

Gup20

Active Member
Reformed said:
How can someone who is dead hear? I am not talking about hearing words, I am talking about "spiritual" hearing. The Holy Spirit first makes spiritual hearing possible through regeneration. I know we disagree about this and that is OK. I just want to make sure you understand what I am saying.

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Do you forget the fruit Adam ate was the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil?” It included the knowledge of good, not just evil.

Romans 2:14
For when Gentiles who do not have the Lawdo instinctivelythe things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witnessand their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

How can the unsaved be totally depraved if they have the knowledge of good, and even the unsaved have God’s good law written on their conscience?
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
As I've said before, God saves both Arminians and Calvinists the same way. They differ only in repentance. Jesus says "whoever believes has eternal life". So both realize salvation at that point. The Arminian repents by "choosing to believe" which shows he believes or he would not choose to believe. This he follows by living a holy life. The Calvinist omits choosing to believe and repents by living a holy life.
 
Gup20

Gup20

Active Member
1689Dave said:
As I've said before, God saves both Arminians and Calvinists the same way. They differ only in repentance. Jesus says "whoever believes has eternal life". So both realize salvation at that point. The Arminian repents by "choosing to believe" which shows he believes or he would not choose to believe. This he follows by living a holy life. The Calvinist omits choosing to believe and repents by living a holy life.
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Yet both are wrong ... both falsely believe that faith leads directly to salvation. However, this is not the case. Faith first qualifies one for human adoption. One doesn't need to be regenerated for human adoption. Once adopted as a descendant of Abraham, one is qualified to inherit the promise given to Abraham that his descendants would inherit the righteousness Abraham was given in Genesis 15:5. This promise is given in Genesis 17:7.

Gen 15:5-6 NASB
5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Gen 17:4-8 NASB
4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

Galatians 3:7
Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:26
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

Galatians 4:30
But what does the Scripture say? “CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”

Romans 9:6
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Hebrews 2:16
For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

Luke 19:9
And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.”

Isaiah 54:1
“Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no child; Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one will be more numerous Than the sons of the married woman,” says the LORD.

Rom 8:15-17
15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, ((synergism see Deut 30:19)) 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]​

Both Calvinism and Armenians make the same false assumption - that faith directly qualifies one for righteousness. Calvinists can't see how a person being completely dead in their sin can have any affect on God. Armenians believe that God is beholden to human will. Both of these positions are incorrect. Calvinists are wrong because faith doesn't lead directly to regeneration but to human adoption. Human adoption doesn't require regeneration. But once adopted into the group known as chosen people of God, they inherit salvation.

Armenians are wrong because, in fact, it is God's promise to Abraham (and Christ) which motivates God to save, not man's will. God gives open enrollment into the group known as "the chosen people" or "the elect." Having the same faith as Abraham had in the gospel of Jesus Christ qualifies us as an adopted descendant of Abraham and an heir of the promise of everlasting life given to him. But it is God honoring his promise which motivates Him to save the chosen group, not the individuals in the group.

Galatians 3:19
Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.​

Begs the question doesn't it - why does God promise the salvation that comes through faith to Jesus Christ?
 
Gup20

Gup20

Active Member
kyredneck said:
Oh, trust me, @Reformed and I are both monergists, you a synergist, I've much more in agreement with him than you.
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Deu 19:15
“A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed.

Deu 30:19
“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Rom 8:16
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

The Old and New testament both support a synergistic view of salvation.

Deuteronomy 30 absolutely destroys any possibility of Calvinistic theology. It flat out says that salvation is a human choice, and that the choice is not too difficult for man to make, and that the choice is not made by God in heaven.

Deu 30:1
“So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,

6 “Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

11 For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
15 See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

The only Calvinist argument against this chapter is that it is for the Jews only, and part of the law and doesn't' pertain to the salvation of faith. However, Paul set the record straight on that and confirmed Deuteronomy 30 is absolutely talking about Christian salvation.

Rom 10:5-11 NASB
5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."​
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
Gup20 said:
Yet both are wrong ... both falsely believe that faith leads directly to salvation. However, this is not the case. Faith first qualifies one for human adoption. One doesn't need to be regenerated for human adoption. Once adopted as a descendant of Abraham, one is qualified to inherit the promise given to Abraham that his descendants would inherit the righteousness Abraham was given in Genesis 15:5. This promise is given in Genesis 17:7.

Gen 15:5-6 NASB
5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Gen 17:4-8 NASB
4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

Galatians 3:7
Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:26
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

Galatians 4:30
But what does the Scripture say? “CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”

Romans 9:6
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Hebrews 2:16
For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

Luke 19:9
And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.”

Isaiah 54:1
“Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no child; Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one will be more numerous Than the sons of the married woman,” says the LORD.

Rom 8:15-17
15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, ((synergism see Deut 30:19)) 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]​

Both Calvinism and Armenians make the same false assumption - that faith directly qualifies one for righteousness. Calvinists can't see how a person being completely dead in their sin can have any affect on God. Armenians believe that God is beholden to human will. Both of these positions are incorrect. Calvinists are wrong because faith doesn't lead directly to regeneration but to human adoption. Human adoption doesn't require regeneration. But once adopted into the group known as chosen people of God, they inherit salvation.

Armenians are wrong because, in fact, it is God's promise to Abraham (and Christ) which motivates God to save, not man's will. God gives open enrollment into the group known as "the chosen people" or "the elect." Having the same faith as Abraham had in the gospel of Jesus Christ qualifies us as an adopted descendant of Abraham and an heir of the promise of everlasting life given to him. But it is God honoring his promise which motivates Him to save the chosen group, not the individuals in the group.

Galatians 3:19
Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.​

Begs the question doesn't it - why does God promise the salvation that comes through faith to Jesus Christ?
Click to expand...
No matter how you slice it, Jesus says "whoever believes has eternal life".
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Benjamin said:
No one knows the mind of God.
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Oh, ". . . But we have the mind of Christ. . . ." And Christ is not God too? (1 Corinthians 2:10-16)

We are of God, are His sheep, and are of the truth prior to hearing which precedes faith and regeneration which results in us having that understanding.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Gup20 said:
The Old and New testament both support a synergistic view of salvation.
Click to expand...
How does that work? Break it down step by step. Noting we are some how of God, His sheep, of the truth prior to hearing, which is prior to faith which is proir to regeneration.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Gup20 said:
Our faith qualifies us as adopted sons & daughters of God
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The adoption has not happened yet, ". . . waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. . . ." -- Romans 8:23.

And the issue in this thread is how are we of God, being His sheep, of the truth that we hear God's word prior to faith, prior to regeneration? The Calvinist argument of regeneration prior to faith does not answer hearing precedes faith, and being of God and His sheep, of the truth is prior to the choice of hearing.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
1689Dave said:
As I've said before, God saves both Arminians and Calvinists the same way. They differ only in repentance. Jesus says "whoever believes has eternal life". So both realize salvation at that point. The Arminian repents by "choosing to believe" which shows he believes or he would not choose to believe. This he follows by living a holy life. The Calvinist omits choosing to believe and repents by living a holy life.
Click to expand...
Biblical repentance precedes faith, Mark 1:15.
 
InTheLight

InTheLight

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
1689Dave said:
This speaks to Jews telling them to repent from the Old Covenant into the New. They were already born again or they would not have entered the New Covenant.
Click to expand...

Yes, Calvinist excuse #2. "The verse is directed at someone other than the group you think it is."

Meanwhile Ezekiel 36 is directed at everyone, not just Israelites.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
1689Dave said:
It's not intended to show any more than Calvinist and Arminians are saved in exactly the same way.
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That being true does not answer the question of being of God, His sheep being of the truth prior to hearing and believing.
1689Dave said:
This speaks to Jews telling them to repent from the Old Covenant into the New. They were already born again or they would not have entered the New Covenant.
Click to expand...
Repentance precedes faith regardless.
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
That being true does not answer the question of being of God, His sheep being of the truth prior to hearing and believing.
Repentance precedes faith regardless.
Click to expand...
Who would repent if they did not first believe?
 
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