An Amillennial Timeline leading up to the end

[1689Dave]

There is no temporary physical kingdom planned for this world. The kingdom arrived with Jesus at his first coming Luke 11:20. It is spiritual Luke 17:21, and flesh and blood cannot inherit it 1 Corinthians 15:50. It is a kingdom only the born again can see John 3:3. It is a kingdom of faith and cannot be a kingdom of sight 2 Corinthians 5:7 as millennial theories claim Luke 17:20.

The great Tribulation was Jewish only and happened as foretold by Jesus in 70 AD. By destroying the temple and Jerusalem Matthew 24:ff. Jesus told his disciples, “when you see” all of this, spoken in the second person plural, meaning those in his present audience, leave Jerusalem. This they did according to history.

Tribulation is the normal lot of all Christians between the first and Second Advent Acts 14:22.

Nothing remains unfulfilled before Christ returns*. It will be as in Noah’s day, much like today where people marry and are given in marriage Matthew 24:36–39.

On the last day Christ returns followed by the resurrection of the Just John 6:39. Followed by the Rapture 1 Corinthians 15:51–53. Accompanied by the resurrection of the damned and their judgment John 5:29. Accompanied by the destruction of the universe by fire, followed by the creation of the New Heavens and Earth 2 Peter 3:10–13. Where believers of all-time meet and live in the house of the Lord forever Psalm 23:6.

*Many look for the symbols of Revelation to literally appear in the future. But if we look for what the symbols represent, we can see Revelation’s predictions fulfilled time and again throughout history.

 

[Revmitchell]

The rapture and the second coming are not the same thing and do not hold any of the same characteristics except Jesus. In the Rapture Jesus is met in the air by the church. In the second coming Jesus steps foot on the Mount of Olives. Etc.

 

[1689Dave]

The rapture and the second coming are not the same thing and do not hold any of the same characteristics except Jesus. In the Rapture Jesus is met in the air by the church. In the second coming Jesus steps foot on the Mount of Olives. Etc.

Scripture places the rapture after the resurrection. And Jesus places this on the last day.

 

[Revmitchell]

Naa you are conflating two different things

 

[1689Dave]

Naa you are conflating two different things

Scripture does not directly support a pre-trib rapture. Only one rapture following the resurrection on the last day.

 

[Revmitchell]

What in the word does that mean....."directly"?

 

[1689Dave]

What in the word does that mean....."directly"?

It means not one scripture says anything about a pre-trib rapture. The only scriptures mentioning a rapture say it happens after the resurrection.

 

[Revmitchell]

It means not one scripture says anything about a pre-trib rapture. The only scriptures mentioning a rapture say it happens after the resurrection.

Yea except it doesn't say that

 

[1689Dave]

Yea except it doesn't say that

Where do you find any verse calling for a pre-trib rapture?

 

[Walter]

I found this on another Christian forum and I was curious as to how you might respond:


Christ will come back once and only once. The rapture belief has him coming back in "secret" for the Christians and then coming back again. This is wrong and very unbiblical.

1 Thess. 4:17 - Paul writes that "we will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." Many Protestants call this experience the "rapture." This theory says that Christ will take the faithful up to heaven before the final coming.

John 14:3; 1 Cor. 15:52 - these are other passages that Protestants use to support the rapture experience. The problem with the rapture theory is that is assumes three comings of Christ. This is contrary to Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.

Heb. 9:24 - instead, the Scriptures are clear that "Christ will appear only a second time, when he comes in glory to save us." See also Rev. 19:11-16. The Scriptures only reveal two comings of Christ.

2 Thess. 2:1-4 - concerning the coming of the Lord, there will be a time of great trouble. As part of their rapture theory, Protestants call this period the "tribulation."

1 Thess. 4:17; 2 Thess. 2:1-4 - the question is when the rapture will occur. Will it occur before (pre), during (mid) or after (post) the tribulation?

Rev. 20:2-3; 7 - these verses refer to the thousand year period where satan is bound and Christ reigns. Protestants often called this period the "millennium." However, the "thousand" year period only means a very long time. It, like much of apocalyptic literature, is not to be taken literally.

Psalm 50:10 - for example, we see the cattle on a "thousand hills." The word "thousand" here obviously means a very long time. It cannot be taken literally. This is the same with the "thousand" used in the Apocalypse.

Dan. 7:10 - a "thousand thousands" served him. Again, "thousand" means a very long time. It is not to be taken literally.

2 Peter 3:8 - with God one day is a "thousand" years and a "thousand" years is one day. "Thousand" is symbolic for a long time.

Matt. 16:27; 25:31-46 - the fact that there is immediate punishment rejects the premillenialism idea of a 1,000 year span between the second coming of Christ and the final judgment.

Matt. 24:24-31; Mark. 13:24-27; 2 Thess. 2:1-12 - these verses reject the premillenialism and mid-tribulation view because the rapture and the tribulation occur together.

Matt. 13:24-30; 36-43 - the wheat and weeds parable rejects the postmillenialism idea that the world will be Christianized before the end of time.

Rev. 20:4 - this verse shows the millennium is the period of Christ's current reign with His saints in heaven and His rule through the Church. This view, which Protestants call "amillenialism," is consistent with the Catholic view. The rapture and the second coming will occur after Christ's reign and the end of the Church Militant on earth. There is thus no "rapture" that precedes the second coming of Jesus.

Rev. 20:3; Matt. 12:29-30 - satan is currently bound during this millennium insofar as he cannot prevent the spreading of the Gospel.

Luke 10:17-18 - after the elders preached the Gospel, Jesus said He saw satan fall like lightning. Thus, satan is currently bound and cannot prevent us from evangelizing the world.

2 Peter 3:10-15 - in the meantime, we wait for the Lord's coming with zeal, avoiding sin, and being at peace, in the hope of our salvation.

 

[Revmitchell]

Where do you find any verse calling for a pre-trib rapture?

You have given two of them. 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50–54. Further, the church is represented in Revelation Ch 4. The problem you run into with your philosophy is that the Tribulation period is not just a time of trouble or difficulties but a time of God's judgment which the church cannot be here for.

 

[1689Dave]

You have given two of them. 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50–54. Further, the church is represented in Revelation Ch 4. The problem you run into with your philosophy is that the Tribulation period is not just a time of trouble or difficulties but a time of God's judgment which the church cannot be here for.

But your references place the rapture after the resurrection which the gospels say is on the last day.

“But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:13–18)

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 15:50–58)


“And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” (John 6:39)

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:40)

 

[Revmitchell]

Nope not there. The mystery spoken of is the Rapture which is because the church itself was also a mystery. Then you still have the church represented in Ch 4 of Rev. Right after 5 the judgment of God is unleashed on the earth. Since the church cannot be here for that they are already taken up.

 

[1689Dave]

Nope not there. The mystery spoken of is the Rapture which is because the church itself was also a mystery. Then you still have the church represented in Ch 4 of Rev. Right after 5 the judgment of God is unleashed on the earth. Since the church cannot be here for that they are already taken up.

Let's walk through your verses.

“But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:13–18) = resurrection first, rapture second.

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 15:50–58)

Since flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, Satan would have only glorified saints to deceive and cause to fight each other when loosed according to Revelation 20.

 

[Revmitchell]

Not sure what you are doing here.

 

[1689Dave]

Not sure what you are doing here.

Laying it out to show the rapture follows the resurrection. And since flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, this leaves only glorified saints in the "millennium" for Satan to deceive after being loosed.

 

[Revmitchell]

Laying it out to show the rapture follows the resurrection. And since flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, this leaves only glorified saints in the "millennium" for Satan to deceive after being loosed.

Break it down for me. What does your version of flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom mean?

 

[1689Dave]

Break it down for me. What does your version of flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom mean?

It means that the only people in a millennium, it there was one, would be glorified saints. And these would be the only subjects for Satan to deceive when loosed.

 

[Revmitchell]

It means that the only people in a millennium, it there was one, would be glorified saints. And these would be the only subjects for Satan to deceive when loosed.

Why does it mean that to you?

 

[1689Dave]

Why does it mean that to you?

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 15:50–58)

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, = only glorified saints in a millinnium if there were one.