Those whom the Gospel hasn't reached

[canadyjd]

Our answers come directly from our view of God, and not necessarily from scripture. If you view God as a God of justice, then you must necessarily then believe that all who have not heard are lost, because they were unable to comply with a "law" that God established that one must believe and accept Lord as Savior.

Yet we are not saved by God's justice (law), but only by his grace and mercy. When we see God described in the scripture, he is always first and foremost a God of grace and mercy. Yes, he his also a God of truth, but never does truth come before grace and mercy in his description. If you look at the design of the Ark of the Covenant, the contents - including the law - are covered by the seat of mercy. The law is important, but it isn't coincidence that law is inside the Ark, while the seat of Mercy is outside the Ark and covers it. Grace and Mercy always come before law, because God is first and foremost a God of Grace and Mercy. Praise be to God!

It isn't for justice that God became flesh. It was exclusively an act of grace and mercy. Jesus didn't come to condemn the world through justice, but save it through grace and mercy. His blood doesn't save us for the purposes of justice, but because it covers us through grace and mercy and renders us justified.

Furthermore, the Blood is intended for all men. God's desire is that no one should perish. 2 Peter 3:9. Certainly, there is an urgency for the Gospel to be preached to the entire earth, hence Christ's charge to his apostles; not necessarily because some savages in a jungle are otherwise "lost", but because they will never experience the fullness of great joy and peace of the Gospel in this present life, and that is a great tragedy.

As for those who lived prior to the cross, the blood, through grace and mercy, flows backward to them, as has been discussed here by others already.

This is where I disagree. Our answers come from scripture, not our view of God. Our view of God becomes quite distorted if not viewed through the lens of scripture.

The OP questions the fairness of the condemnation of those who died never hearing the gospel. Scripture is clear, at least to me, that those people perish because they have already rejected God.

When we look at it with a human perspective, we say that wouldnt be fair. When you do that, you are judging God according to human understanding.

Peace to you

 

[ChurchofChristguy]

This is where I disagree. Our answers come from scripture, not our view of God. Our view of God becomes quite distorted if not viewed through the lens of scripture.

The OP questions the fairness of the condemnation of those who died never hearing the gospel. Scripture is clear, at least to me, that those people perish because they have already rejected God.

When we look at it with a human perspective, we say that wouldnt be fair. When you do that, you are judging God according to human understanding.

Peace to you

Allow me to clarify. I am not stating that it is proper for our view of God to enter in, but it most certainly does. Many have grown up in households and churches where God is a God of revenge. He's mad. He's waiting for us to screw up. The devil tells us this all the time. He wants us to believe this about God. Our view of scripture comes through the lenses of our personal history, as well as our view of God. That view is often distorted, if not outright molested.

Answers come from scripture. But only some answers, not all. For example, there is no answer in scripture as to why bad things happen to good people. Only God knows all answers. And while scripture infers that we may know more answers in heaven, certainly we will never know all of the answers because we will never be God, even in our glorified state.

God was, is, and always will be, a God of grace and mercy before all other things. People who have not heard the Gospel have had no opportunity to reject God by not having heard it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Allow me to clarify. Answers come from scripture. Our view of scripture comes through the lenses of our personal history. That view is often distorted, if not outright molested. God was, is, and always will be, a God of grace and mercy before all other things. People who have not heard the Gospel have had no opportunity to reject God by not having heard it.

Do they commit sins worthy of death?

 

[Reynolds]

Allow me to clarify. Answers come from scripture. Our view of scripture comes through the lenses of our personal history. That view is often distorted, if not outright molested. God was, is, and always will be, a God of grace and mercy before all other things. People who have not heard the Gospel have had no opportunity to reject God by not having heard it.

All have rejected God, that is plain in the above Scriptures in this thread. Above all, God is just. He demands justice. His just wrath was satisfied by the shed blood of Jesus. No application of that blood to the sinner = the just sentence of eternal Hell.
Those who truly seek Him will find Him.

 

[Iconoclast]

#3

This does not address the issue in that you do not offer an answer.

 

[ChurchofChristguy]

All have rejected God, that is plain in the above Scriptures in this thread. Above all, God is just. He demands justice. His just wrath was satisfied by the shed blood of Jesus. No application of that blood to the sinner = the just sentence of eternal Hell.
Those who truly seek Him will find Him.

If God is just, above all, then we are all lost.

God is first and foremost a God of grace and mercy. He describes himself as follows in Exodus 33:18:

"Jehovah,Jehovah,a God merciful and gracious,slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness and truth,preserving loving-kindness for the thousands,pardoning error and transgression and sin..."

Hebrews 4:16 - Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Ephesians 2:4-5 - But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us...

Psalms 86:5 - For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.

Lamentations 3:22-23 - It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

Deuteronomy 4:31 - For the LORD thy God is a merciful God; he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

Romans 12:1-2 - I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Luke 6:36 - Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

1 Peter 1:3 - Blessed the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

 

[ChurchofChristguy]

Do they commit sins worthy of death?

Yes, as have all men.

 

[ChurchofChristguy]

This does not address the issue in that you do not offer an answer.

Then try #32. I don't know how much more plainly it can be explained.

 

[Iconoclast]

Then try #32. I don't know how much more plainly it can be explained.

I understand Dave's post 32.
Itl suggested the great commision...
My question to him and to you is...how did people in distant lands have the gospel?
They did not, that is why missionaries go.
God never intended to save every sinner as claimed.

 

[ChurchofChristguy]

I understand Dave's post 32.
Itl suggested the great commision...
My question to him and to you is...how did people in distant lands have the gospel?
They did not, that is why missionaries go.
God never intended to save every sinner as claimed.

Then John 3:16 need to be revised to say "For God so loved certain people living after the cross, that he gave his only begotten Son..."

2 Peter 3:39 needs to be revised to say "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting certain people to perish, but whomever he chooses to come to repentance."

In fact, there are several hundred scriptures that will need revising. I don't have time today though.

Your view of God and his nature isn't from scripture, I can tell you that.

 

[InTheLight]

God never intended to save every sinner as claimed.

#4

 

[Iconoclast]

Then John 3:16 need to be revised to say "For God so loved certain people living after the cross, that he gave his only begotten Son..."

2 Peter 3:39 needs to be revised to say "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting certain people to perish, but whomever he chooses to come to repentance."

In fact, there are several hundred scriptures that will need revising. I don't have time today though.

Your view of God and his nature isn't from scripture, I can tell you that.

Actually you cannot tell me that. I will go online soon and demonstrate why these texts are fine just as they are when properly understood, instead of pulled out and wrested from the scriptures as you are doing.
For example...everyone in 2 pet.3:9 is going to be saved because God has decreed, destined and purposed they are going to be saved. He indeed is NOT WILLING that any of them perish.
You have no answer for that, do you?

 

[ChurchofChristguy]

Actually you cannot tell me that. I will go online soon and demonstrate why these texts are fine just as they are when properly understood, instead of pulled out and wrested from the scriptures as you are doing.
For example...everyone in 2 pet.3:9 is going to be saved because God has decreed, destined and purposed they are going to be saved. He indeed is NOT WILLING that any of them perish.
You have no answer for that, do you?

As a matter of fact, I do not have any further answers for this forum at all. The demeanor that permeates here is the antithesis of anything holy and Christ-like. “Pearls to swine” comes to mind, with swine being a compliment.

Good day and a good from-now-on to you all, I’m out.

 

[InTheLight]

As a matter of fact, I do not have any further answers for this forum at all. The demeanor that permeates here is the antithesis of anything holy and Christ-like. “Pearls to swine” comes to mind, with swine being a compliment.

Good day and a good from-now-on to you all, I’m out.

I wish you wouldn't leave. I was enjoying reading your point of view. You are correct that Calvinists need to redefine what Bible verses actually say in order for it to fit into their theology. That's #1 on my list of faulty Calvinist debating points (in my signature, below.)

Don't let the curmudgeonly Calvinists get to you.

 

[Iconoclast]

As a matter of fact, I do not have any further answers for this forum at all. The demeanor that permeates here is the antithesis of anything holy and Christ-like. “Pearls to swine” comes to mind, with swine being a compliment.

Good day and a good from-now-on to you all, I’m out.

Self righteousness is not a fruit of the Spirit. Many leave when they cannot answer simple responses , you are not the first, or the last.
It is easier to do then to offer a biblical answer for non biblical ascertions .

 

[Iconoclast]

I wish you wouldn't leave. I was enjoying reading your point of view. You are correct that Calvinists need to redefine what Bible verses actually say in order for it to fit into their theology. That's #1 on my list of faulty Calvinist debating points (in my signature, below.)

Don't let the curmudgeonly Calvinists get to you.

4,.....5

 

[FreeBaptist]

Those who pass away without embracing Jesus as their Savior will go to Hell even if they never heard about Jesus.

So, all those millions/billions of people from the beginning of time until the end of it who have not heard of Jesus will be condemned to hell. Doesn't sound like the God I know, or the God of the Bible.

 

[FreeBaptist]

As a matter of fact, I do not have any further answers for this forum at all. The demeanor that permeates here is the antithesis of anything holy and Christ-like. “Pearls to swine” comes to mind, with swine being a compliment.

Good day and a good from-now-on to you all, I’m out.

Stay, please. I need all the help I can get here.

You have contributed a lot of good things.

 

[Iconoclast]

So, all those millions/billions of people from the beginning of time until the end of it who have not heard of Jesus will be condemned to hell. Doesn't sound like the God I know, or the God of the Bible.

What happened to those outside the Ark?
That is the God of jn3:16 my friend

 

[FreeBaptist]

What happened to those outside the Ark?
That is the God of jn3:16 my friend

I'm not saying everyone will go to heaven. But I know God is more fair and merciful than any human being. I also believe my view is supported in scripture, in Romans, for example.