Uh....yes
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Is it really synergism?
- Thread starter Revmitchell
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I should have been more selective on which part of your quote I was responding to. I have since corrected it.
It's all good.
Gup20
Active Member
Not ignored, just understanding the proper sequence.
Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB) 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Acts 11:17 (NASB)
"Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"
Scripture is clear on the sequence - the Holy Spirit indwells AFTER belief, not before.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
Obviously, the answer is that the fallacy of false dichotomy does not exclude the law of the excluded middle, as the latter only applies to binary situations.
Insisting the situation is binary even when another describes a third alternative is to shut down further discussion. Sometimes it's called "not listening," or "hearing without understanding."
Gup20
Active Member
Jesus excluded the middle when He said,
Matthew 12:30 (NASB)
"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.“
The question is not whether it’s reasonable to entertain “middle options”, but rather do those middle options align with scripture. If they do not align with scripture, they are “against God” and will “scatter.” Therefore, it is wise to approach middle options with a black & white - exclusionary - mindset asking “is this true or not true according to the scripture.” We must be noble-minded.
Acts 17:11 (NASB)
Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.
37818
Well-Known Member
In analyizing metaphysical truth claims, they should be done only in pairs, even though there may be a dozen or more possibilities. And eliminating a claim one by one. This method is not well studied. It is popularly called a "Pascal's Wager." The failure of Pascal's Wager is do to introduction of multiple other possibilities, and not pairing them.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
Yes, you are right of course, but it is the same point. It is only reasonable if it aligns with God’s Word. Or do you imagine we should treat or apply Scripture without reason?
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
Again, this works if and only if the pairs are true binary options. They must be sufficiently pared to be properly paired. Otherwise you will create a false dichotomy.
37818
Well-Known Member
You failed to understand the point of my last arguement. Metaphysical analysis to work must be done in pairs. You can have points of view A, B, C, D, E, F, etc. One would compare A with B. Then if B is removed, then A against C and C against A. And so one.
We are going to have to disagree here Is that all right with you?
There is no middle. We either end up in Heaven or hell there is no in between we all will be in one place or the other. If there is a middle then it is right here where you are trying to decide. eventually you will be in one place or the other
MB
I have no doubts of my Salvation.
MB
On a side note, what parts of Classical Arminianism do you disagree with? C.A. allows either view of eternal security. You can hold Eternal Security and be a Classical Arminian. From conversing with you, It really seems as if you hold the other 4 points.
1. I deny Total inability, I hold to human depravity
2. I have a big problem with Universal Grace. According to the link there is no mention of the word of God being preached. I hold that the gospel was lived and provided by Jesus. He said He, Himself will draw man to Him (John 12:32). The Holy Spirit inspired word of God says that the gospel is the power to salvation (Romans 1:16). It also says faith comes from the gospel (Romans 10:17).
3. I deny conditional perseverance. I hold that we are now new creatures in Christ (2 Cor 5:17) Our salvation is kept by god not us (1 Peter 1:3-5).
4. Regeneration lack and point on the role of the gospel in man's salvation. Big problem.
The Making of a Classical Arminian
I am not so sure the true Arminian definition of total depravity greatly differs from what you believe. The Gospel is and always has been central and essential to the Arminian doctrine. The link is a group of Arminians that call themselves Classical, but they don't totally line up with the foundational doctrine of Classucal Arminianism which is the Articles Remonstrance. I don't exactly agree with article 2.
- Article I — That God, by an eternal, unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ, his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ's sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his Son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John iii. 36: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him," and according to other passages of Scripture also.
- Article II — That, agreeably thereto, Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption, and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins, except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John iii. 16: "God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"; and in the First Epistle of John ii. 2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
- Article III — That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasyand sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do anything that is truly good (such as having faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the word of Christ, John xv. 5: "Without me ye can do nothing."
- Article IV — That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of a good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without that prevenient or assisting, awakening, following, and co-operative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But, as respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is notirresistible, in as much as it is written concerning many that they have resisted the Holy Ghost,—Acts vii, and elsewhere in many places.
- Article V — That those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory, it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled, nor plucked out of Christ's hands, according to the word of Christ, John x. 28: "Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginnings of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scriptures before they can teach it with the full persuasion of their minds.[1]
It has to, I completely deny Total Depravity.
Are you aware that Arminian total Depravity is not the same as Calvinistic Total Depravity?
Arminian T.D. simply holds that man is totally incapable of accepting Christ until The Holy Spirit calls him.
If I am not mistaken, that is exactly what the vast majority of "traditionalists" believe.
Can you be kind enough to explain your view of depravity to me? "Human Depravity" is a term that in the few texts I can find it is interchangeable with total depravity.
Do you believe in original sin?
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What I hold to is that man does not go seeking after God without some revelation from Him about Him to lost man. Romans 1 says that what can be understood about God is revealed by creation. We cannot ignore that yet every statement I have read fails to mention it or consider it part of the salvic process. Further, scripture says that faith comes from the gospel. Now combine that with Jesus' statement that He will draw all men....we have to consider what that means how does the drawing occur? I hold that the drawing occurs when God sends the gospel (the death, burial, & resurrection) is the drawing Jesus talked about. The gospel being presented is in fact, according to scripture, the drawing of Jesus being lifted up.
Creation reveals God, & the gospel opens man's heart up to salvation. What is the Holy Spirit's direct role in all of this? The Holy Spirit inspired word of God, & the gospel as it is written and delivered which has the power that leads to salvation. Does lost man need an extra measure of grace, by God, to open his heart? If so that would appear to contradict Romans 1. Does man need to be regenerated before He can understand and receive the gospel? Scripture never indicates that idea.
I do not see my position as being similar to cals or arms.
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