Calvinism

Arminianism really only has 4 articles. On dealing with eternal security, Classical Arminianism leaves that up to the individual. It does not attempt to refute nor agree with "p".

 

And where may one find an unbiased, simple listing of the five points of Arminianism?

 

Worthy of a politician or the SBC.


"God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ" ... God will definitely save SOMEONE (but we have no idea if it is because of God's choice or man's choice ... but it is definitely God's UNCHANGEABLE PURPOSE and it is definitely IN CHRIST.

"through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace" ... The GRACE of the HOLY GHOST definitely has something to do with it. It sounds to a Calvinist like you are are giving credit to the Holy Ghost for drawing, and it sounds to an Arminian like the belief of the man opens the door to the Holy Ghost. True POLITICIAN-SPEAK at its finest. All things to all people.

"to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath" ... Since we have sidestepped the question of whether God draws man, or man chooses God as the 'first cause' of salvation, the issue of the Rights of a Sovereign God and the Love of a Just God are sidestepped.

Calvinism and Arminianism agree on everything ... except what the words really MEAN and the roles of God and Man in justification, sanctification and the whole 'salvation' thing from eternity past to eternity future.

 

"through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his son Jesus"

Sounds to me like it's saying the Holy Ghost enables one to believe. I mean it's not wishy-washy at all. I don't see any wiggle room for the belief of man to open the door to the Holy Ghost

 

Baptist Calvinism tends to be centered around Sotierlogy pretty much, while the strictly Reformed center around the entire Covenant theology framework.

 

Of course it sounds that way to you ... now what if it had been written by an early Methodist and was referring to the Prevenient grace given by the Holy Spirit to all men.

As in "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." [John 12:32]

Would John Wesley not also affirm Article 1 as true?
Synergism does not deny that God plays a part in salvation, it asserts that man plays a part as well.

 

I suspect that it was not the carefully worded Articles that sparked the response, but the body of writings and beliefs that stood behind it. Much as the Baptist Faith and Message 2000 was crafted to allow room for broad interpretation through careful selection of words with different meanings to different people, the Articles of Remonstrances were probably carefully crafted to present the most "orthodox" face of a movement with both a moderate and radical wing.

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Will you also present the 5 Points?

 

And what are you insinuating?

This is the first time I've seen the 5 points of Arminianism.

What if?

What if you just read what it says without any bias and make your own determination?

I don't know. I'm not a mind reader.

Well I suppose the entity needing saving has to play some sort of a part. Sheesh.

 

I am accusing you of being a monergist.
So you viewed Article 1 as affirming the work of God.

A synergist would view Article 1 as empowering the choice of man (like the example of John Wesley).

 

Let's play a game ...

Thus says the LORD:

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. [Ephesians 2:1-10 NASB]​

What part does the "entity needing saving" play in salvation as described by God in the paragraph above?
Is it an "active" part or a "passive" part?

 

I'll play...

30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!” [Ezekiel 18:30-32 NKJV]

 

Ultimately, I have always considered it God's business whose sins he carried within himself and nailed to that cross. It is clearly far beyond my power to add or subtract from Christ's propitiation with my opinions. Yet God has invited me to "come and let us reason together", so I feel free to ask questions and have my own thoughts.

If all sins were paid at the Cross, then it always seemed to me that God was punishing the same sin twice. For the "damned", Christ died once for that sinful act and they die a second death for the same act. That smacks of the same charge of innately "unfair" as God is accused of for damning those that God chose not to save. Is there even a little unfairness in God's Justice?

The second thing that bothers me about that is the "uncertainty factor". There is a sense in which Jesus propitiation saved no one. If Jesus death bought everyone a CHANCE at forgiveness, but only some will benefit from that death, then the Death of God Incarnate was insufficient all by itself to save anyone. Salvation is the Blood of Christ plus ... something else.

As a former nihilist, I have little use for a God whose arm is even a little bit short. I want TRUTH (with a capital 'T') and GOD (with a capital 'G') ... nothing less.

 

I was hoping for something closer to conversation than "Scripture Pong".
I quit, so you win.