Neither Arminianism nor Calvinism

[Iconoclast]

Friend, this teaching is woefully wrong. The notion that this refers to original sin is inflicted upon the text, not drawn from it. In fact, Paul spends the bulk of Romans 2 establishing who and why all are concluded under sin:

​

If it meant that "all had sinned" applied perpetually to all people of all times, that would be warranted. But to impose the meaning that this referred to Adam's sin is completely extra-textual, and far beyond the scope of what could rationally be accepted from the text itself. My friend, I'm sorry, but it just doesn't speak of Adam in any way, shape, or form.

If you want to correctly understand the passage, I would urge you to read over the teaching offered to you.from all these men I posted.

The teaching is that ...ALL SINNED....at one point in time, at one point in History.

It is not all have sinned by experience [which is true}, but it is teaching all sinned at one point oin time.
The only place where spiritual death entered the human race is the FALL>

 

[Iconoclast]

He died spiritually, and physically.

Genesis 3:21 (NASB) The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.

We see the first death to come into the world was literally to cover Adam & Eve for their sin.

Genesis 2:17 (NASB) but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

(From Genesis 2:17—“You Shall Surely Die” ):

The phrase “you shall surely die” can be literally translated from the Hebrew biblical text as “dying you shall die.” In the Hebrew phrase we find the imperfect form of the Hebrew verb (you shall die) with the infinitive absolute form of the same verb (dying). This presence of the infinitive absolute intensifies the meaning of the imperfect verb (hence the usual translation of “you shall surely die”). This grammatical construction is quite common in the Old Testament, not just with this verb but others also, and does indicate (or intensify) the certainty of the action.​

I agree Gup.
That is why what i offered the historic teaching for you to consider.

 

[37818]

That is what I am asking you
Did Adam die that day?
Did He die physically or spiritually

My answer was, "Did God lie to Adam about dying that day?" ". . . for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. . . ." -- Genesis 2:17. Since Adam did not physically die that very day, that leaves the interpreation of spiritual death, does it not?

Now regarding the book of life. According to the day of Judgment, those whose names are not found in the book persish (Revelation 20:15). There are three references to names blotted out of some book. Exodus 32:33 being the first reference. Psalms 69:27-28 being the second reference. And the third reference is a promise to not in any way have one's name blotted out, and that rerference specifices without dispute the book of life (Revelation 3:5).

Now there three claims. One, that God's kingdom is for little children (Mark 10:14). That meeting the requirment of a little child in order to enter the kingdom (Mark 10:15). And that Jesus told Nicodemus that one must be born over to even see the kingdom (John 3:3-4).

 

[Gup20]

My answer was, "Did God lie to Adam about dying that day?" ". . . for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. . . ." -- Genesis 2:17. Since Adam did not physically die that very day, that leaves the interpreation of spiritual death, does it not?

Genesis 3:21 (NASB) The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.

A death to cover Adam's sin did take place that day (in both a literal a figurative sense). The first substitution sacrifice. This is why Cain should have known that plants would not be a sufficient sacrifice.

 

[37818]

Genesis 3:21 (NASB) The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.

A death to cover Adam's sin did take place that day (in both a literal a figurative sense). The first substitution sacrifice. This is why Cain should have known that plants would not be a sufficient sacrifice.

That is an interpertation.

 

[37818]

What stands out is that only those whose names are not in the book of life perish (Revelation 20:15).

Jesus teaches that God's kingdom is for little children (Mark 10:14).

And Jesus teaches being counted as a little child as some kind of prequisit to enter God's kingdom (Matthew 18:3; Mark 10:15; John 3:3-4).

And the promise of not having one's name removed is made (Revelation 3:5; 1 John 5:4-5).

Otherwise there are two OT references to names being blotted out on the account of sin (Exodus 32:33; Psalms 69:27-28).

 

[Gup20]

That is an interpertation.

What's not open to interpretation is that death entered the world on that very day because of sin. You can't make clothes out of animal skins without killing the animal.

 

[37818]

What's not open to interpretation is that death entered the world on that very day because of sin. You can't make clothes out of animal skins without killing the animal.

Death existed prior, Genesis 2:17. And you are arguing interpretation!

 

[Gup20]

Death existed prior, Genesis 2:17. And you are arguing interpretation!

Romans 5:12 (NASB) Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

You can’t have death before sin. God created the world in 6 days and called it very good. In 1 Cor 15, it calls death “the enemy” so it can’t be “very good” with death. You can’t have death before man. Genesis 2 is the 6th day of creation expounded. Death is the punishment for sin, not a “very good” part of creation. Christians who are willing to compromise on that are willing to compromise on anything.

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (NASB) 20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

If you can’t accept Adam, how can you accept Christ?

Isaiah 11:6 (NASB)
And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the young goat, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them.

If you can’t accept what the Bible says about the natural world, how can you accept what it says about the spiritual world?

 

[37818]

You can’t have death before sin.

That is an [unBiblical] interpretation. What God warned Adam makes this so that death was before that sin. Genesis 2:17, ". . . for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. . . ." God did not speak of what had no existence. Which would make no sense to speak meaninglessly.

 

[Gup20]

That is an [unBiblical] interpretation. What God warned Adam makes this so that death was before that sin. Genesis 2:17, ". . . for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. . . ." God did not speak of what had no existence. Which would make no sense to speak meaninglessly.

This is absolutely hands down the worst argument I’ve ever seen.

Genesis 2:17 literally translates as “...and dying you will die.” If death already existed, a slow, natural death would be no punishment at all.

Apparently God is incapable of prophesying the future too.

Romans 4:17 (NASB) (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

 

[37818]

You can’t have death before sin.

Well we did. Genesis 2:17. Genesis 3:3, ". . . God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. . . ."

 

[37818]

This is absolutely hands down the worst argument I’ve ever seen.

That is, sad to say, because your view is irrational.

Genesis 2:17 literally translates as “...and dying you will die.” If death already existed, a slow, natural death would be no punishment at all.

Apparentlyr God is incapable of prophesying the future too.

Romans 4:17 (NASB) (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

No, on a number of points. First off, sin of man did not originate death. Secondly, the fall of man did make sin a cause of death, making death the enemy. God does not lie and yes, God does speak of things that are not yet.

 

[JonC]

Death existed prior, Genesis 2:17. And you are arguing interpretation!

I never thought about it that way. That is a good point to consider. Along those same lines, I suppose it would have to be a physical death that had been observed in nature/ creation.

 

[Christian Baptist]

Ah, so am to understand you think infants and little children do not need Christ's death and resurrection?

Of course not. Your conclusion is incorrect.

 

[Gup20]

That is, sad to say, because your view is irrational.
No, on a number of points. First off, sin of man did not originate death.

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 (NASB) 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.​

Notice it doesn’t say “as in Adam all sin”... but rather by man came death... and in Adam all die.

Secondly, the fall of man did make sin a cause of death, making death the enemy.

Romans 5:17 (NASB) For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.​

God does not lie and yes, God does speak of things that are not yet.

Like He did when He told Adam that dying he would die if he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 3:22 (NASB) Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--​

By your logic, Adam must have known good & evil prior to the fall because God tells him not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good & evil or dying he would die... yet here we see that the knowledge of good & evil resulted from the sin. And indeed we see they didn’t know they were naked until they sinned. How can half the sentence be a lie? It cannot.

Do you understand why God cannot lie? Probably not since you don’t appear to take Genesis as true.

Genesis 1 is the reason it is impossible for God to lie. Reality itself conforms to God’s lies... He said “let there be light” when there was no light, and then suddenly there was light. There is so much power in His Word, if God lies, reality conforms to make it truth. Therefore it is literally impossible for God to lie.

 

[37818]

Of course not. Your conclusion is incorrect.

It is not my concusion. I hold Christ died for all, to either be their Savior or their Judge. In the case of little children that die, their Savior.

 

[37818]

By your logic, Adam must have known good & evil prior to the fall because God tells him not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good & evil or dying he would die...

Not my logic, yours. You illogical thinking denies that death preexisted Adam. Yet you suppose Adam understood what death meant.

 

[Revmitchell]

“For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (I Corinthians 15:21,22).

Death is a result of man's sin. There was no death prior to this according to scripture.

 

[Christian Baptist]

It is not my concusion. I hold Christ died for all, to either be their Savior or their Judge. In the case of little children that die, their Savior.

Your conclusion that I do not believe that is wrong. Please re-read my post and yours.