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Featured The Extent of Jesus' Death

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Acts2.21, Jun 15, 2019.

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  1. Acts2.21

    Acts2.21 Member

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    Did Jesus Christ die for everyone without exception, that is, the entire human race, from the time of Adam, to the last person on earth? Or, did Jesus Christ die for only a certain few, that is, the "elect"?

    I believe that one text from the New Testament, among many others, is very clear to the fact, that Jesus Christ not only died for a limited number of sinners, those He chose before the foundation of this world, His "elect", as some Reformed and Calvinists put it.

    The text is from The Apostle Peter's Second Letter, chapter 2, verse 1:

    "But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction"

    It is very clear from the language here, that these "false prophets", and "false teachers", cannot be part of the "elect", whom Jesus would have chosen to salvation. As these are said to "bring on themselves swift destruction", language that cannot be used for those who are born-again believers!

    The normal word for "Lord" (κύριος), is not here used, but rather, "δεσπότης", which is also used for Jesus in Jude 4, which context is very similar to the second chapter of 2 Peter. This Greek word is for an absolute ruler, in a good sense when used for Jesus Christ, and God elsewhere, which is for His Sovereignty. Some have supposed that this Title, "δεσπότης", because it is not the usual one used for Jesus Christ, "κύριος", does not refer to Jesus, but to God the Father. This reasoning is used to try to weaken the application of this verse to the Death of Jesus Christ, and its scope. The context, as we shall see, clearly shows that it is Jesus Christ, and not the Father, Who is meant.

    It should be noted, that these heretics, who are destined to "swift destruction", by their false teachings, are said to have been BOUGHT by the Lord Jesus Christ. Here we have the use of the Greek verb, "ἀγοράζω", which is used for the purchase of slaves, in classical Greek, and has exactly this meaning when used for the Death of Jesus Christ. In 1 Corinthians 6:20, the Apostle Paul tells Christians, that they had been ""ἀγοράζω", with a price". Exactly the same thing he says in chapter 7:23. In Revelation 5:10, the Apostle John uses "ἀγοράζω", for believers, where it is translated, "redeemed". Likewise in chapter 14, verses 3-4. No doubt on the use of this word in the New Testament, and its relation to the Death of Jesus Christ on the cross. Thus, it is very clear to those who don't have theological preconceptions, that Jesus Christ did not only die for the "elect", but also for those who sadly will end up in hell.
     
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  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes, Jesus died for everyone without exception. But Jesus also died to save those who would believe (those given by the Father, the sheep). Jesus is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe.

    I believe that the opportunity is there for all. The condemnation is that the Light has come into the world and men loved darkness rather than Light. They are condemned (or remain in their condemnation) because they do not believe in the Only Begotten Son.

    But that is where we all were. We were all lost in our sins, rejecting God, rejecting Christ, rejecting the Light. And the Father drew us out of that darkness into the Light.
     
  3. Acts2.21

    Acts2.21 Member

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    You say, "Jesus died for everyone without exception". Exactly in what sense did He do this, if not that all these could also have been saved. There is not a single Scripture that says that Jesus died to save only "those who would believe". If there is, then please provide this here. John 3:16, which is very clear about the extent of God's love, and salvation, is for the WHOSOEVER, which John Calvin calls, "everyone without exception"! The fact that the lost are able to "reject", shows that they must have "free will", or else this is moot!
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I say that Christ died for everyone without exception in the context that all men can be saved. I also say that Christ lay down His life for the sheep and will lose none that the Father gives Him.

    I do not believe we have to choose which parts of Scripture we are to believe. Christ died for all men. All men can be saved. Not all men will be saved. Chirst died in order to save those who will believe .

    "For God so loved the world [i.e , mankind] that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will have everlasting life."

    All can be saved but God gave Hos Son that all who believe will be saved.
     
  5. Acts2.21

    Acts2.21 Member

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    I have a problem with this, "Christ died in order to save those who will believe ", because it teaches a limitation, which is only believers. In this case, He did not die for the entire human race, as the majority are not believers!
     
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  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    It is my understanding that He did. To either be one's Judge or one's Savior. Romans 14:9-11; Romans 8:34. 1 John 2:2; 2 Corinthians 5:14.
     
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  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yet that is what Scripture indicates. Christ is tge Savior of all, especially those who believe. Christ loves the Church. Christ lay dilown His life for the sheep. Christ will loose none the Father gives Him.

    The difference is simple - we cannot change Scripture to read Christ was given that all men (regardless of belief) would have eternal life. This does not mean Christ did not die that all may be saved.

    It means Christ died that all may be saved AND that those who believe would be saved.
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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  9. Acts2.21

    Acts2.21 Member

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    The Bible does not teach universal salvation, that everyone will be saved whether or not Jesus Christ is their personal Saviour and Lord. Salvation is only for those who truly repent of their sins, and accept Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour and Lord. Salvation is for everyone without exception, because Jesus has died for them, but all must first repent and believe the Gospel, in order to receive this salvation.
     
  10. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Where does it say he died for everyone without exception and then qualifies it to be especially those who believe? That is not found in Scripture.

    All men can be saved. Can, meaning it was possible, but not all will be saved, God does not choose everyone. Could God have chosen all? Yes, but He did not. Christ only died for those that believe and those are only the ones that were chosen before the foundation of the world.
     
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  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    False gospel. A typical missinterpretation of truth, such as Christ's warning, Luke 13:1-5.
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do not see that anyone here suggested that the Bible teaches universal salvation.

    I referenced 1 Timothy 4:10 - that Christ is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe. This speaks of Christ - not men. Christ is the only way that all men may be saved. Those who remain condemned remain so NOT because of a lack of provision (Christ died that all may be saved) but because of a lack of belief (those who confess and believe WILL BE saved).
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  14. Acts2.21

    Acts2.21 Member

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    "Christ only died for those that believe and those are only the ones that were chosen before the foundation of the world."

    Am I right in saying from what you say here, that you don't think universal Atonement (not, universal salvation), is taught in the Holy Bible? If, as you say, that Christ "Christ only died for those that believe", then the ones who do not believe, and end up in hell, He did not die for? But, as I have shown in the OP, 2 Peter 2:1 shows otherwise
     
  15. Acts2.21

    Acts2.21 Member

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  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Ok. Repentance (changing of one's mind or view) precedes one having faith.
     
  17. Acts2.21

    Acts2.21 Member

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    this "changing one's mind and view", is to do with ones personal sins, and not only what the sinner though about God/Jesus Christ. As Jesus Himself says in Luke 24:43, "repentance for the forgiveness of sins", the two being taken together. the former leads to the latter, and this leads to the hell-bound sinner becoming a child of God.
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    He also died to be the Judge of those who perish, Romans 14:9-11; Romans 8:34.
     
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  19. Acts2.21

    Acts2.21 Member

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    Indeed. While they were still alive and could have repented, He was their Saviour. They died without Jesus as their personal Saviour, so He is their Righteous Judge
     
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Where is that explicitly taught? please cite Scripture. That the objective of faith is forgiveness is not at issue, Hebrews 10:17.
     
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