Comma in Luke 23:43

[MartyF]

Luke 23:43 NLT
[43] And Jesus replied, "I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise."

I was introduced to this possibility last week by a family member.

This is a different translation problem than most of you are use to. This is not about advanced Greek grammar or the arguing over which word to use or what a word actually means. For this translation, one really has to ask what was intended.

Personally, I would like it to be “before” because it feels nicer to jump straight to Heaven. However, when looking at this from the viewpoint of the context of the rest of the Bible and the Resurrection, I would have to say that “after” is most likely correct.

So state your cases and ponderings. I’m interested in others opinions on this except for the following:

1. KJVO - I realize that if one believes KJVO then one can say the KJVO says “before” and that is that. But if I don’t believe in KJVO, then you’re just talking past me and not to me.

2. Arguments from your vast knowledge of Greek concerning this passage. Arguments from the grammar rarely work. You will not convince me one way or the other using this method.

3. Any arguments from tradition from the birth of Augustine forward. Arguments from tradition won’t really convince me but may support a biblical position.

Now, nothing is stopping you from using these arguments and they may confirm what someone already believes, but I doubt it will change their minds. I ask that people don’t hijack the thread.

 

[rlvaughn]

My first observation is that the comma after "Today" would seem an odd way to speak. When I'm telling you something today, I don't have to tell you I'm telling you today.

Second, it appears that every Bible translation at Bible Gateway has the verse translated in such a way to mean that "today" refers to when he would be in paradise. (In some the comma doesn't come into play due to how the sentences are written.)

 

[MartyF]

Ok,

Found another passage to support the immediate departure to Heaven.

Philippians 1:20-24 NLT
[20] For I fully expect and hope that I will never be ashamed, but that I will continue to be bold for Christ, as I have been in the past. And I trust that my life will bring honor to Christ, whether I live or die. [21] For to me, living means living for Christ, and dying is even better. [22] But if I live, I can do more fruitful work for Christ. So I really don't know which is better. [23] I'm torn between two desires: I long to go and be with Christ, which would be far better for me. [24] But for your sakes, it is better that I continue to live.

I am still looking at whether there is evidence Jesus went to Heaven the day he died.

 

[MartyF]

My first observation is that the comma after "Today" would seem an odd way to speak. When I'm telling you something today, I don't have to tell you I'm telling you today.

Second, it appears that every Bible translation at Bible Gateway has the verse translated in such a way to mean that "today" refers to when he would be in paradise. (In some the comma doesn't come into play due to how the sentences are written.)

I understand. However one can look at it as an emphasis.

The criminal says

Luke 23:42 NLT
[42] Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom."

And Jesus says

“I assure you today, with me you will be in paradise.”

In order words, Jesus was saying he didn’t have to remember he could tell him right then.

Like I said, a relative brought this up and it is making me wonder.

 

[MartyF]

To me, this passage implies Jesus did not go to Paradise the day he died.

John 20:17 NLT
[17] "Don't cling to me," Jesus said, "for I haven't yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

 

[Deacon]

Curiously I just put this book on my “wish list” today

To Cast the First Stone [link], by Jennifer Knut and Tommy Wasserman

At 464 pages, I bet if I read it I”d have an opinion after finishing.
Right now all I can say is, huh???

Rob

 

[MartyF]

Curiously I just put this book on my “wish list” today

To Cast the First Stone [link], by Jennifer Knut and Tommy Wasserman

At 464 pages, I bet if I read it I”d have an opinion after finishing.
Right now all I can say is, huh???

Rob

At $40, it’s definitely a wish list item. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Deacon]

It's off topic (again) but there is a way to get that price into manageable range.
I gather points with a search engine and about every month get rewards; I choose a $5 coupon toward Amazon - after a few months $40 doesn't seem so much.

Rob

 

[Ziggy]

Usually the idea of placing the Comma after "today" is is coming from a JW perspective, since they make this into a key doctrinal issue relative to their theology.

Any chance the "relative" had been reading some JW literature?

 

[MartyF]

Usually the idea of placing the Comma after "today" is is coming from a JW perspective, since they make this into a key doctrinal issue relative to their theology.

Any chance the "relative" had been reading some JW literature?

No, he just did a web search. But yes, I have looked up the verse in NWT and now I can say that was probably where he got it from since he rarely checks his sources for reliability.

I definitely don’t believe in “soul sleep” as I can find nothing about it. In addition, in the passage from Philippians I already mentioned, Paul seems really to state that he is going immediately to go to Christ. So, being beamed to Heaven after death seems correct.

However, more passages than Philippians would be nice if someone wants to point out more passages about the direct path to Heaven after death.

Did the spirit of Christ go to Heaven to wait before the resurrection? And where do we find that?

I’m still looking for passages to help with this. I’m still looking for another passage besides Luke 23:43 to support in the answer to the above questions.

 

[MartyF]

Found it. Not Heaven, but clearly alive in the spirit before the resurrection. I think I have enough to say before. But I would be happy if anyone provided more evidence.

1 Peter 3:18-22 NLT
[18] Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit. [19] So he went and preached to the spirits in prison- [20] those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood. [21] And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. [22] Now Christ has gone to heaven. He is seated in the place of honor next to God, and all the angels and authorities and powers accept his authority.

 

[Ziggy]

Note that JW's don't hold to soul sleep as do the 7th day Adventists, but rather to soul extinction at death, with a later re-created soul for a subsequent resurrection body.

 

[37818]

To me, this passage implies Jesus did not go to Paradise the day he died.

John 20:17 NLT
[17] "Don't cling to me," Jesus said, "for I haven't yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

It is my understanding, not till after those 40 days, Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11; Hebrews 9:12.

 

[37818]

Luke 23:43 NLT
[43] And Jesus replied, "I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise."

I was introduced to this possibility last week by a family member.

This is a different translation problem than most of you are use to. This is not about advanced Greek grammar or the arguing over which word to use or what a word actually means. For this translation, one really has to ask what was intended.

Personally, I would like it to be “before” because it feels nicer to jump straight to Heaven. However, when looking at this from the viewpoint of the context of the rest of the Bible and the Resurrection, I would have to say that “after” is most likely correct.

So state your cases and ponderings. I’m interested in others opinions on this except for the following:

1. KJVO - I realize that if one believes KJVO then one can say the KJVO says “before” and that is that. But if I don’t believe in KJVO, then you’re just talking past me and not to me.

2. Arguments from your vast knowledge of Greek concerning this passage. Arguments from the grammar rarely work. You will not convince me one way or the other using this method.

3. Any arguments from tradition from the birth of Augustine forward. Arguments from tradition won’t really convince me but may support a biblical position.

Now, nothing is stopping you from using these arguments and they may confirm what someone already believes, but I doubt it will change their minds. I ask that people don’t hijack the thread.

It has long been my understanding that paradise was the upper compartment of Hades, Acts of the Apostles 2:27, where Jesus went before His bodily ressurection. Note where Abraham was above the lower place, Luke 16:23; Deuteronomy 32:22; Luke 16:31.

 

[Deacon]

"It should no longer be necessary to explain that “today” cannot be construed with “I say to thee.” To be sure, Jesus is saying this today—when else would he be saying it? The adverb “today” is a necessary part of Jesus’ promise to the malefactor. In fact, it has the emphasis. It would usually take three or four days until a man would die on the cross, so lingering was death by crucifixion. But Jesus assures this malefactor that his sufferings will cease “today.” This is plain prophecy and at the same time blessed news to this sufferer. But Jesus says vastly more: “Today in company with me shalt thou be in Paradise!” This is an absolution. By this word Jesus acquits this criminal of sin and guilt. He accepts him as one of his own. By this word he here and now unlocks heaven for him.

R. C. H. Lenski, The Interpretation of St. Luke’s Gospel (Minneapolis, MN: Augsburg Publishing House, 1961), 1145–1146.

 

[37818]

It has long been my interpretation that paradise was moved from the upper place of Hades to the third Heaven when Jesus ascended to Heaven taking the saints from upper Hades to Heaven according to the prophecy cited by Paul, Ephesians 4:8; Psalms 68:18. (2 Corinthians 12:2)

 

[agedman]

The thief died the same day (before sundown).

Therefore, “today (the same day) you will be with me in paradise. “

The ONLY reason to move the comma is if one holds that the thieves legs were not broken so they lived into Passover. They did not. The truth of the immediacy in the statement considering the events is the driving force determining the place of the coma.

Everyone had to die on the same day.

 

[37818]

. . . into Passover

According to Mark 14:12 that day, being the day following Mark 14:12 was then the feast day, 15th. It is irregular church tradition interprets it otherwise.
Mark 14:12 was the 14th, Exodus 12:18.

 

[agedman]

According to Mark 14:12 that day, being the day following Mark 14:12 was then the feast day, 15th. It is irregular church tradition interprets it otherwise.
Mark 14:12 was the 14th, Exodus 12:18.

This isn't the time to get into that thread thinking, this is about the coma.

The religious rulers sought Pilot to have the thieves killed prior to sundown. It was done.

Pilot was surprised the Christ was already dead.

 

[37818]

The religious rulers sought Pilot to have the thieves killed prior to sundown. It was done.

It was already sundown, Mark 15:42, ". . . And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, . . ." The 15th had just ended. Joseph of Arimathaea, had to wait until that holy day was over to obtain Jesus' body.

The Geneva Bible reads, ". . . And nowe when the night was come . . . ."