Baptist succession is a myth. The groups you try to hitch your wagon to were hardly baptistic. I used to believe in it until Baptist historians admitted it is a hoax.
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Let's see some Scriptural authority for APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION
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Baptist succession is a myth. The groups you try to hitch your wagon to were hardly baptistic. I used to believe in it until Baptist historians admitted it is a hoax.
How Christ-like of you!
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
You don't have anything say.
You deny The Lord's churches and think you were a Baptist.
You don't have anything say.
You don't know any Bible about the subject, or and don't have anything to say, and have no business on the subject, either.
Rome is Rome.
You are Rome.
You have joined Rome.
That is against The Bible, The Trinity, and The Lord's churches.
For Rome to deny The Lord's churches and The Bible is Rome's business.
And, instead of dealing with what your own historians say about Baptist perpetuation, you resort to personal attacks because you hate Rome. Pretend I was a member of the EPC, (or even another Baptist) how would you have responded to your historians rebuff of Baptist succession?
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
In no.1; No Apostles were ever given the power to bind and loose things here on earth, as Apostles, per the Scriptures.
Therefore, any pretending 'Apostles' masquerading as 'Apostolic' are wasting their time trying to act like they have some power to bind and loose things here on earth.
No Apostles were ever given the power to bind and loose things here on earth, as Apostles.
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In no.2; There is nothing, inclusive, that is "a new church".
There was nothing formed here on earth that answers to the collective expression, "The Christian Church",
and there was nothing that involved Apostles, as individuals, that were ever given the power to bind and loose things here on earth, as Apostles, and especially nothing of that sort that would ever be regarded as a 'new faith' to 'keep going'.
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In no 3. Jesus Christ is The Head of His churches and The Holy Spirit Governs them under The Administration of God the Father.
Any 'leaders (Bishops)' Saved by The Holy Spirit, Called by Him to Office, and Providentially in The Hand of Jesus Teaching Jesus' churches, has no relationship to anything concerning the word, 'Apostle', and No Apostles were ever given the power to bind and loose things here on earth, as Apostles, that ever had anything to do with 'leading the faithful into the future'.
And especially not any people pretending to think they know what an 'Apostles' is that masquerading as 'Apostolic' andwasting their time trying to act like they have some power to bind and loose things here on earth.
That pretend 'Apostle' will probably want to give themselves, 'Authority', and say they got that from binding and loosing Apostles when the Apostles never have Authority to bind or loose and none was Given to them.
Orthodoxy of Satan's counterfeit 'church' and her harlot daughters, "teaches that these Bishops "have by divine institution taken the place of the apostles as pastors of the Church, in such wise that whoever listens to them is listening to Christ". (CCC 862)
As if they are God.
And here is the Blasphemous assumption of a pretender thinking they make themselves into Jesus Christ:
"He who hears you, hears me" said Jesus, so if not them, then who? The Apostolic mission thus continues and the same apostolic message rolls on into the future until the return of our Lord and Savior.
Then, hey there that word is.....
'Authority'.
The fake 'Apostle', who is Jesus and His Words are the words of God, including taking away and adding to The Bible, has 'Authority'.
"There are several examples of this authority for the Apostolic Succession laid down by God Incarnate (Jesus Christ) Himself, it is your error filled interpretation of the Scriptures that prevents you from seeing them."
That's great. That's beautiful. That's real nice.
There isn't a word of Truth to any of it, but they apparently think it's just lovely to deny The Bible and be Blasphemously Anti-Christ, in this way.
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
You don't have anything to say about it, other than there is some things you believe that somebody said, somewhere, that is a denial of Scripture, and History.
That's your position.
You don't care about anything God could have to say on the matter.
Was Peter an Apostle? Matthew 16:19 shows how ignorant you are in this.
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
Not only that, but they were given the power to forgive sins.
John 20:19-23
19It was the first day of the week, and that very evening, while the disciples were together with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them. “Peace be with you!” He said to them. 20After He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said to them, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, so also I am sending you.” 22When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.”
Wow, imagine that!
That would be you.
Our friend just cannot accept the truth. John Smyth, 17th century, former Anglican minister, the first Baptist, Netherlands.
There you go again. American culture is dumbed down so you call Elizabethan culture Model T. You are going to end up hoisted by your own petard.
English is much-changed over the last 400 years, both in Britain and here. And the KJV is NOT in TODAY'S English, not to mention its goofs & booboos. Call today's English 'dumbed down' if you wish, and all the world's billion English users wrong, but the language is what it is, by God's design.
Still no authority for apostolic succession.
Wow! Where can I buy one of those Hip-Hop Rap Bibles other than the closing Lifeway stores?
But not one of them is or was an apostle.
Again, none of them did what the apostles did, besides preaching the Gospel. None perform miracles. All the actual apostles either walked with Jesus, saw Jesus, or were spoken to directly by Him such as Paul was. Hasn't happened since. And no actual apostle appointed any successor as an apostle.
Anywhere ya like. Like Elizabethan English? Become a Quaker.
And while you're at it, please show us some SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT for the KJVO myth.
I'm not KJVO so I am hardly an expert on that. They don't bother me. I don't agree with them but I could be in one of their churches because I do like the KJV. It is the first translation that I read.
As for the Quakers, they and The Salvation Army do not baptize so they are wrong on that issue and I am surprised that you suggest them at all.
Please tell me what you cannot understand from the following six verses (warning not hip-hop slang):
Psalms 23:1-6 (KJV) <<A Psalm of David.>> The LORD [is] my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou [art] with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Peter was an Apostle and Peter was NOT Given "the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
You just don't know why.
And you don't know that you are not permitted to imagine that there may be a reason why because you and those who do your thinking for you both put yourselves as attempting to exalt yourselves above the Throne of God.
It won't work.
When Rome can't be worshipped, along with people telling themselves they are God, the Bible has to go.
He that believes not is damned.
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Here is, just plain, straightforward, sober, Bible Interpretation, of which, also, you have no use.
John 20:23, Gill
Whose soever sins ye remit
God only can forgive sins,
and Christ being God, has a power to do so likewise;
but he never communicated any such power to his apostles;
nor did they ever assume any such power to themselves, or pretend to exercise it;
it is the mark of antichrist, to attempt anything of the kind;
who, in so doing, usurps the divine prerogative, places himself in his seat, and shows himself as if he was God:
but this is to be understood only in a doctrinal, or ministerial way, by preaching the full and free remission of sins, through the blood of Christ, according to the riches of God's grace, to such as repent of their sins, and believe in Christ; declaring, that all such persons as do so repent and believe, all their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake: and accordingly,
they are remitted unto them;
in agreement with Christ's own words, in his declaration and commission to his disciples; see ( Mark 16:16 ) ( Luke 24:47).
On the other hand he signifies, that
whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained:
that is, that whatsoever sins ye declare are not forgiven, they are not forgiven; which is the case of all final unbelievers, and impenitent sinners; who dying without repentance towards God, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, according to the Gospel declaration, shall be damned, and are damned; for God stands by, and will stand by and confirm the Gospel of his Son, faithfully preached by his ministering servants;
...and all the world will sooner or later be convinced of the validity, truth, and certainty, of the declarations on each of these heads, made by them.
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The Bible doesn't give any room for Rome in the previous verse, either: or anywhere else.
"And saith unto them, receive ye the Holy Ghost";
meaning not the grace of the Holy Ghost in regeneration, which they had received already;
but the gifts of the Spirit, to qualify them for the work he now sent them to do, and which were not now actually bestowed;
but this breathing on them, and the words that attended it, were a symbol, pledge, and confirmation, of what they were to receive on the day of Pentecost: hence it appears, that it is the Spirit of God, who, by his gifts and grace, makes and qualifies men to be ministers of the Gospel;
and our Lord by this action, and these words, gives a very considerable proof of his deity:
the Papists show their impudence and wickedness, in imitating Christ by their insufflations, or breathing on men; pretending thereby to convey the Holy Spirit to them."
John 20:22 Gill
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The Apostles Received Miraculous Gifts that Did Not Include The Keys to The Kingdom, or The Power to Bind and Loose or The Great Commission, or The Power to Forgive sin.
The Gifes were Given to those The Bible Says they were Given to, in Mark 16 and not Given to anyone who believes in Salvation that is Recorded in Mark 16.
After Paul and the 70, there were no more Miraculous Healing Gifts:
This part of this site does OK with this little run down, on The 70: Who were the 70 (or 72) disciples in Luke 10? | GotQuestions.org
1) Go (Luke 10:3). This is foundational. The 70 were to divide into pairs and visit all the places where Jesus was about to go.
2) Be wary (Luke 10:3). The 70 were like lambs among wolves, surrounded by danger.
3) Live by faith (Luke 10:4). The 70 were to carry no extra provisions. They carried the message of Jesus and didn’t need to be burdened down with material things.
4) Be focused (Luke 10:4). The 70 were to greet no one along the road and not allow themselves to be sidetracked from the more important mission of evangelism.
5) Extend your blessing (Luke 10:5–6). Whoever housed the 70 were to be blessed, using the common greeting of the day, “Peace to this house.”
6) Be content (Luke 10:7). The 70 were told not to seek better accommodations; they were to stay in the home that first received them.
7) Receive your due (Luke 10:7). The laborer is worthy of his wages (cf. 1 Timothy 5:17–18). Doing evangelistic work is indeed work and is worthy of compensation.
8) Be flexible (Luke 10:7–8). The 70 were to eat whatever their hosts served; as God’s servants, they were not to be finicky.
9) Heal the sick (Luke 10:9). Jesus gave the 70 disciples specific authority to heal diseases and illness. It was as if the Great Physician had 70 interns making house calls. When the 70 returned to Jesus, they jubilantly recounted how they were able not only to heal diseases but to cast out demons as well (verse 17).
10) Proclaim the kingdom (Luke 10:9). The message of the 70 disciples was simple: “The kingdom of God has come near to you.” This was a clear-cut call to faith in the King who would soon visit each village.
Jesus then told the 70 (or 72) disciples that they might expect rejection in some villages (Luke 10:10), and He told them how to respond: publicly wipe the dust of that town from their feet (Luke 10:11; cf. 9:5), proclaim the kingdom one more time, and warn them of coming judgment (Luke 10:12).
"Authority" is not in 'Apostles', or 'Gifts', or 'breathing, or anything else, except The Bible, God, and The Lord's churches, by Succession of The Authority of God, in Baptist Baptism.
There is no twisting required, when God Gives someone the understanding of the Words, in His Bible.
Jesus Knows His Bible.
What's up, Rome?
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To be an Apostle, you must have personally been with Jesus.
That is why Jesus Appeared to Paul and Talked with him.
You?
Again, this is OK, basic Bible: Who were the 70 (or 72) disciples in Luke 10? | GotQuestions.org
"One of the requirements for apostleship was that the candidate had to “have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection” (Acts 1:21–22).
Paul witnessed it.
He saw Jesus, personally.
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
There are a number of words associated with the word, 'church', in The Bible, and you are not familiar with The Bible usage and meaning of the word, 'church', or The Bible usage and meaning any of the several other words in The Bible associated with the word, 'church'.
Including, "Glory".
Smyth doesn't have anything more to do with Baptists than Calvin has to do with writing The Bible.
Aware of The Godhead 8.0.5b.9
GLORY IN THE CHURCHES.
“To Him be Glory in the church
by Christ Jesus throughout all ages,
World without End”
[Ephesians 3:21].
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We have here a Spirit-inspired declaration or prayer.
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If it was a prayer, as the KJ version indicates,
it nevertheless declares an assured fulfillment,
because the Holy Spirit does not inspire vain prayers.
“He makes Intercession
for the saints
according to the Will of God”
[Romans 8:27].
Therefore we understand
that God gets Glory in the churches
in Christ Jesus.
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This was true in Paul’s day and it was to continue
“unto all the generations of the eons of the eons,”
an expression of eternity beyond our comprehension.
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But He could not get Glory
in the church
unless
JESUS’ churches Continued to Exist.
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And of course, He is far from getting Glory
in a carnally imagined “invisible” 'church'
whose advocates reject and deny the plain,
simple, straightforward teachings and
Promises of His Word.
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Nothing like ignoring the actual text of the Scriptures. I just quoted them verbatim, there is no ambiguity in those words. It is you of the Netherlands who have twisted them and others all in a knot.
I quoted the appropriate verse. Once again, you twist it to match your own sect's doctrine. You take what you believe and reverse engineer the scriptures to match it.
To the rest of your musings all I can say is: Good grief!
For many years after Henry VIII’s reformation of the Church of England, the people with political power had strong control over religious worship. There were people, however, who wanted to do what they believed God was telling them in the Bible, rather than what the king’s officials told them. One such man was John Smyth.
Smyth believed that baptism by immersion – having your whole body covered by water – should be the basis of church belief. He travelled to Amsterdam, where he and his friend Thomas Helwys baptised each other by pouring water over their heads. They founded their church in 1609 and later practiced baptism by full immersion.
The first Baptist Church was established in Spitalfields, London in 1612. The Baptist Church as we know it today evolved from the belief that the things taught by the early apostles in the New Testament should be more important than any ‘government or established’ teaching of the Church. In other words, no king, queen or parliament should rule the Church – only God’s word, the Bible could. Some Baptists paid dearly for holding to this belief and were put to death. It was Oliver Cromwell who first allowed Baptists greater freedom and influence. By the 17th century many Baptist churches had been established, particularly in London.
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