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Featured Can we lose our salvation and eternal life?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 3rdAngel, Aug 28, 2019.

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  1. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Hello brother Mitch,

    We all have a duty of love to help each other to believe and follow God's Word. If a brother is following a false teaching and living up to all the knowledge God has revealed to them than God only holds us accountable to what we know not what we do not know *JAMES 4:17; ACT 17:30-31 but when he gives us a knowledge of His truth through His Word he calls all men everywhere to repent and believe and follow His Word *ACT 17:30-31.

    I believe God has His children in every Church living up to all the knowledge He has revealed to them. JESUS says however that the hour is coming and NOW is that the true worshippers will worship God in Spirit and in truth *JOHN 4:23. God is calling His people wherever they may be to come out from following the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God to worship him according to His Word *JOHN 10:16; REVELATION 18:1-4. God is calling us back to His Word because it is only in His Word that we can find JESUS who is the truth and the living Word of God. This is our duty of LOVE and this is where we must lead all. He must increase and we must decrease.

    Your accusations here are false and misleading as there is only truth and error. One leads to God the other away from God. If we believe in error we are not believing and following God's Word. What is ungodly is not to present the truth when error is presented that not only leads those away from God that teach it, but can also lead others away from God that hear it. If God has given us a knowledge of the truth and we do not share it to our brother who is in error, and our brother loses his salvation God will require our brothers blood from our own hands *EZEKIEL 3:17-21.

    I am sorry if you feel offended by me saying the "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" is a false Gospel but I have a duty of LOVE to tell the truth. It is not biblical and is the first lie spoken to Eve in the garden of Eden and today preached in mainstream religions of the world and only designed to lead all who believe it away from Gods Word.

    Many will find out when they meet JESUS thinking that they were saved only to find out too late that they were never saved to begin with because they beleived and following something that was not biblical *MATTHEW 7:22-23.

    God bless
     
    #101 3rdAngel, Aug 31, 2019
  2. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Your response...
    NO! Your reading into the scriptures something they are not saying. God's Sheep are defined in God's Word (not mine) as all those who believe and follow God's Word *JOHN 3:15-21; JOHN 10:1-4; JOHN 10:26-27 God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word) and follow Him. Those who do not believe and follow are not God's Sheep. This does not mean they cannot be converted to believe and follow. It is the BELIEVING and FOLLOWING of God's Word that makes one God's Sheep.
     
    #102 3rdAngel, Aug 31, 2019
  3. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Hello Rockson, I enjoyed reading your post. Thankyou for sharing.

    God bless
     
    #103 3rdAngel, Aug 31, 2019
  4. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    #104 3rdAngel, Aug 31, 2019
  5. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Nope we lose our salvation by not believing and following God's Word.
     
    #105 3rdAngel, Aug 31, 2019
  6. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Oh good grief. Jesus said those words and you simply dismiss them out of hand because they are contrary to your beliefs.

    If we have a different foundation of belief we don't have a common ground for discussion.

    Thanks for the conversation.

    Peace to you
     
    #106 canadyjd, Aug 31, 2019
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  7. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Not at all your words are not God's Word and it is only your words that I dismiss as they are not biblical. God's Sheep according to the scriptures are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word *. JOHN 10:1-4; JOHN 10:26-28; MATTHEW 10:38; JOHN 8:12; MATTHEW 4:20-22; MATTHEW 19:27-28. You have been provided God's Word which are not my words. In response you provide your words that are not God's so your argument is with God not me. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4; ACTS 5:29. This is only shared in all love and respect and as a help to you as you are in error here brother. Ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.
     
    #107 3rdAngel, Aug 31, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2019
  8. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Setting aside your false doctrine, I was not addressing it. I was addressing your accusation someone does not believe the bible because they do not follow your junk. It is a lie that you have fallen prey to.
     
    #108 Revmitchell, Aug 31, 2019
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  9. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Well, therein (following God's Word) is where it appears you have missed the point that Jesus paid the price for our sins in full and His grace is given freely, without merit. You might want to take another look at the meaning behind the stumbling block that Jews struggled to get past along with doing a study about "Progressive Revelation" because your works based proselytizing here is pretty much understood by those who do follow the Bible as being heretical.
     
    #109 Benjamin, Aug 31, 2019
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  10. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    The Lord Jesus taught the truth.;)
    Anything and everything He said is truth ( John 14:6 ).
     
    #110 Dave G, Aug 31, 2019
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  11. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    False doctrine? And what would that be? You have made claims and accusations with your own words that you are unable to prove from scripture. Let's bring everything to the light of God's Word and see if there is any truth in what you are saying? If you cannot why do you pretend you are saying the truth when you are not? I have only provided God's Word. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it ROMANS 3:4. You provide your own words and accusations which are not God's so your argument is with God not me. You did not read what you were quoting from or the scriptures provided did you. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed. You are free to believe as you wish. I do not judge you. We all answer only to God come judgment day.
     
    #111 3rdAngel, Sep 1, 2019
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  12. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Hello Benjamin, not really God's Sheep (believers) hear his Voice (the Word) and follow him . JOHN 10:1-4; JOHN 10:26-28; MATTHEW 10:38; JOHN 8:12; MATTHEW 4:20-22; MATTHEW 19:27-28. This is the difference between the true faith and the faith of devils *JAMES 2:18-20; 26; The children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10.

    We are only saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith that works by LOVE. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments) not to continue in sin *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36.

    Those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not know God and need to be Born again into the NEW COVENANT promise to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10. This is God's work in us and a part of the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12; PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

    Hope this is helpful
     
    #112 3rdAngel, Sep 1, 2019
  13. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Sorry, but the verses you use (abuse) are written to explain the New Covenant and get past the idea (the stumbling block of the Jews) that one is saved by his works rather than faith alone in the work of Christ alone which comes by grace alone.

    You have many problems with your proselytizing a works based salvation, bud. Beginning with that YOU are a sinner who CONTINUES in sin, unless you would like to call God a liar?

    Friend, the point you miss, and it is a MAJOR point indeed concerning Progressive Revelation, is that NO-ONE is saved by their good works but rather by faith in what Jesus has done in the New Covenant! You're still stumbling on the Old. As it is written:
    (Heb 10:4) For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

    WORKS do not save, they NEVER did, ONLY Jesus, who did ALL THE WORK, who was the ONLY Person to ever not sin accomplished this! Even having been born again, saved, regenerate, YOU are not Jesus! The GOOD NEWS IS that grace is free!

    Again, you've missed a major point of the Bible and a study of Progressive would definitely help you. 1st Corinthians 2:7-15 addresses this very matter and the correct understanding of these passages expose your error to me...

    Maybe you would like to explain how these saints, who sinned and continued in sin where not "saved", "born again", "regenerate", I will use these terms interchangeably, and ask about these individuals.

    To start with, for example Peter, Jesus called him Satan as he argued that Lord should not die, according the way you use scripture he was not saved, but I understand the meaning behind the scriptures you abuse to proselytizing a works based salvation here. Oh hey! I can't put it any better than my missed old buddy Ed Sutton did about grace being free when he asked about these 11 people:

    Was David saved when he was both a murderer and an adulterer? (II Sam. 11:24; Ps.51)

    Was Rahab saved when she was a prostitute? (Jas. 2:25)

    Was Samson saved when he was one of the notorious 'womanizers' in history? (Jdg. 14:7; 16:1)

    Was Noah saved when he was drunk? (Gen. 9:20-24)

    Was Jacob saved when he was the biggest 'cheat' and/or swindler in the Bible? (Gen. 27:36; 30; 31)

    Was Gideon saved when he was one of the biggest cowards of all time, scared of his own shadow, his neighbors, and even his own father, and who argued with the LORD that he was too weak to do anything, and even had to have his father protect him, after the little vandalism incident of casting down the altar of Baal, that actually belonged to his father? (Jdg. 6)

    Was Solomon saved when he was the greatest 'polygamist' in history (Compared to Solomon, the Eldorado bunch, are at best, fifth rate 'wannabes'!), with personal wealth that would make Midas look like a pauper, and with more wives than all the other kings in the line of the Lord Jesus of Israel and Judah combined, which was in direct disobedience to God's direct prohibition for a king to 'multiply' wives (and wealth) for himself? (Deut. 17:17, I Ki. 11:3)

    Was Jonah saved when he was the most obnoxious bigot in Scripture, who did not want anyone to heed his message, instead wanting God to destroy Ninevah, where he preached a message of fewer than 10 words, from a street corner, effectively told the LORD, "Okay! I preached what you asked.", and was angry with GOd, when He did not destroy Ninevah, because they repented, said he'd rather be dead than to have to live with that crowd? [Jonah seemed to forget that he had already been physically dead, once before ('Living' people were not found in Sheol, the realm of the dead.) and he didn't like it, but still he was willing to be dead again, in order to keep down the 'population explosion' of 'undesirables' in Paradise, even if they were now among the 'redeemed'.] (Jon. 3:4-4:12)

    These are just a few from the OT. Let's ask about a couple of folks you may have heard of in the NT.

    Was Thomas saved when he "doubted" in that he refused to believe the testimony of 10 apostles who were eyewitnesses that Jesus had been raised from the dead, and said that unless he, personally, could jab his hand into Jesus' side, "I will not believe!", the most notorious 'skeptic' in the Bible? (Jn. 20:25)

    Was Paul saved when he said he "am 'chief' of sinners?" You do notice that Paul did not say he once was chief of sinners, I presume! (I Tim. 1:15)

    And one more from the OT: Was that great 'role model', paragon of virtue, and whom I call the Biblical "saint of saints", because he is one of only two, or perhaps three individuals whom the Bible calls "righteous" or "just" three different times (and the only individual in Scripture specifically identified as being among "the godly") - "Yep! You got it!" - 'Hizzoner', himself, Ol' Lot, saved when he was the Mayor of Sodom? (Gen. 19:1; II Pet. 2:7)

    Yes, they were all saved. -all 11 of 'em, as well, according to what I read. The first 6 are even found in what is described as the "Hall of Fame of faith" chapter in Scripture - Heb. 11.

    The way I got it figured, including Peter, that's a Christ-denier, a murderer and an adulterer, to boot, a hooker, a womanizer, a swindler, a drunk, a coward, a polygamist, a bigot, a skeptic, the chief of sinners, and the Mayor of Sodom.

    Hey, Nice Crowd!

    Incidentally, I challenge anyone to show me where the Bible ever says any of them 'repented'. Of or from anything!"

    Likewise, I would challenge you to show where any of these "sheep" succeeded in no longer sinning due to repenting of their sins? You can't and you would be a fool to go before the JSOC and boast of your good and wonderful works before the Lord! Matthew 7:22-23.
     
    #113 Benjamin, Sep 1, 2019
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  14. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Hello Benjamin, thanks for your post. I can understand why you did not quote my post as you would have had to deal with the scriptures that disagree with you and show that your claims are false ones, so I added the complete post here. So let's get to it. Let's bring everything to the light of Gods' Word and pray that God will guide us and lead us into His truth. After all only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it right?

    You were provided God's Word here showing that Gods Sheep are all those who hear and follow Gods Word and the NEW COVENANT scriptures concerning God's plan of salvation here...

    Your response to the scriptures provided above is shown below here...

    Please show from the above post where you believe the scriptures have been abused and what it is in the above post that you disagree with. If you cannot why are you pretending that the scriptures above do not support what is being posted? All I can see here is you making lots of claims with your words disagreeing with God's Word when only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it.

    What do the scriptures and post say above?

    1. God's Sheep (believers) believe God's Word and follow him *JOHN 10:1-4; JOHN 10:26-28; MATTHEW 10:38; JOHN 8:12; MATTHEW 4:20-22; MATTHEW 19:27-28.
    Do you disagree that God's Sheep (believers) hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him?

    2. We are saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8-9 Do you disagree that we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast?

    3. Obedience to God's Word is the fruit of faith as we walk in God's Spirit in the NEW COVENANT to love and that this is God's Work in all those who believe his Word *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10; PHILIPPIANS 2:13; GALATIANS 5:16.
    Do you disagree that OBEDIENCE is God's work in us and the fruit of our faith?

    4. If our faith has no fruit it is dead and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *JAMES 2:18-20; 26; *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. Do you disagree wthat faith without works is dead?

    That is all that is written in this post. Now you made the claim that scripture has been abused. I do not wish to have blood on my hands by abusing the scriptures so please prove your accusations. If you cannot prove your accusations why are you saying things that have no truth in them and why do you not believe the scriptures shared in love with you? These are God's Word not mine in response you provide your own words which are not God's so your argument is with God not me.

    Ok let's examine your claims. Look at the post you have left out that I have added here for all to see and please tell me how does my post above and all the scriptures that have been provided from the NEW COVENANT promote a works based salvation what the very post you are quoting from says that

    "We are only saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith that works by LOVE. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments) not to continue in sin *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36."

    Now where in this post does it say we are saved by our works? If this post is not saying that we are saved by our works' why are you pretending that it is? Are you being honest here with your posting claiming I am saying and posting things that I am not and leaving my post out of the things you are claiming that I am saying? What you are claiming has no truth in it and is sad for you.

    more to come...
     
    #114 3rdAngel, Sep 1, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2019
  15. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Now please show me where I have ever posted here or elswhere that we are saved by our works when I have only ever posted the opposite here? If you cannot show me or anyone here where it is I believe or have said we are saved by our works why are you pretending that this is what I am saying? Your post is a complete misrepresentation of things I have never said or believe. This is sad for you.
    Where have I ever posted Saint's that sin cannot have salvation if they repent from their sins? Your making up things again I have never said or believe. What do you think 1 JOHN 2:1-4 means?

    Now your misrepresenting the scriptures. 1 TIMOTHY 1:15 does not teach PAUL was saved by sinning. It says...

    1 TIMOTHY 1:15, This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

    JESUS did not come to call the RIGHTOUES to repentance and salvation but sinners. It is a faithful saying because we are all sinners and need salvation and without JESUS we can do nothing but sin. The GOOD NEWS of the Gospel of JESUS Christ is that we have a Saviour that has the power to save us from our sins. He does not save us to continue in known unrepentant sin. If we continue in known unrepentant sin we will die *ROMANS 8:13 because we reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23.

    MATTHEW 9:12-13 [12], But when he heard it, he said, They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick. [13], But go ye and learn what this meaneth, I desire mercy, and not sacrifice, for I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.

    and again...

    JOHN 8:31-36 [31], Jesus therefore said to those Jews that had believed him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye truly my disciples; [32], and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. [33], They answered unto him, We are Abraham's seed, and have never yet been in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? [34], Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Every one that committeth sin is the servant of sin. [35], And the bondservant abideth not in the house for ever: the son abideth for ever. [36], If therefore the Son shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

    TITUS 2:11-12 [11], FOR THE GRACE OF GOD HAS APPEARED BRINGING SALVATION TO ALL MEN, [12], TEACHING US, THAT, DENYING UNGODLINESS AND WORLDLY JUSTS, WE SHOULD LIVE SOBERLY, RIGHTOUESLY AND GODLY IN THIS PRESENT WORLD

    PAUL teaching the opposite of what your claiming here...

    ROMANS 6:1-2, [1] What shall we say then? SHALL WE SIN [break any one of God's 10 commandments], THAT GRACE MAY ABOUND? God forbid. [2], How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    ROMANS 6:15-17 What then? SHALL WE SIN BECAUSE WE ARE NOT UNDER LAW BUT UNDER GRACE? GOD FORBID! [16] Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of SIN RESULTING IN DEATH, or of OBEDIENCE resulting in righteousness?

    ROMANS 3:31 [31], Do we then make void the law through faith? GOD FORBID: YES, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

    God's GRACE is given to us because all of us have sinned and are sinners (broken God's 10 Commandments) and the wages of SIN is death *ROMANS 3:23; ROMANS 5:12; ROMANS 6:23.

    ROMANS 8:3-4 [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], THAT THE RIGHTOUESNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.

    Salvation is from sin, not to continue in sin. If you continue in sin (known unerpentant sin) you will die *ROMANS 8:13. All those who as christians continue in known unrepentant sin will not enter into the kingdom of Heaven because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-27.

    The rest of your post is only repetition to something that has already addressed here or something you claim I am saying and have never said or believe. When you address this post I will be happy to discuss the scriptures further with you but claiming things I have never said or believe is simply dishonest.

    Hope this helps clear up your confusion here.
     
    #115 3rdAngel, Sep 1, 2019
  16. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    By stating that salvation can be lost, you're stating that God does not keep His children by His own, immutable power ( 1 Peter 1:5 ), but that something we do can and does result in losing the gift of eternal life.

    In other words, our works result in us being saved, and not God's works alone.

    Unlike "Traditionalists", who teach that man's efforts "get our foot in the door" but that God's power keeps us there, you're teaching not only the first, but denying the second.

    You're also denying that Christ's blood does not result in being forgiven all trespasses ( Colossians 2:13-14 ), but that there are some that are not forgiven unless confessed.
    I suspect that you're misunderstanding 1 John 1:9 and turning it from an evidential passage, into a conditional one.
    What I see you advocating, like the Roman Catholic Church and many others today, is that unless a person departs this world having attained a "state of grace", one cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

    In addition, you're conditioning Christ's declarations in the book of John and elsewhere, in favor of a conditional salvation that relies on man's imperfect efforts:

    - Despite Him stating that He will lose none of His sheep ( John 6:39 ) and that none shall perish ( John 10:28 ), you say He can and some do.
    - Despite stating that they will never come into condemnation ( John 5:24 ), you say some of them will.
    - Despite stating that they are passed from death unto life ( John 5:24 ), you say that some will die, spiritually.
    - Despite Him stating that everyone who is drawn by the Father will be raised up at the last day ( John 6:44 ), you are saying that some will not be raised up unto the first resurrection, and meet Him in the air.
    - Despite Scripture plainly stating that nothing shall separate the believer from the love of God ( Romans 8:31-39 ), you are saying that sin shall separate some of them from God's love.
    - Despite Scripture stating that no man shall be able to pluck them out of His hand ( John 10:28-29 ), you are saying that some men can and will pluck themselves out of His hand.
    - Despite being sealed unto the day of redemption ( Ephesians 1:13 ) by the Holy Spirit, you are basically stating that some of them will become unsealed.
    - Despite being born again, you're stating that some will become un-born again.
    - Despite having eternal and everlasting life ( John 3:16, John 3:36, and many others ) you say that everlasting life is only attained at the end of a long and fruitful life of good works and enduring in the faith.

    Lastly, despite Christ straightforwardly declaring what the parables of the sower ( Matthew 13:18-23 ) and the tares of the field ( Matthew 13:36-43 ) mean, you seem to leave these truths out, confuse true believers with false ones, and instead of differentiating the two ( which Paul explicitly says exists in 2 Corinthians 11:26 ), lump them all together as one and consider that those who fall away are true believers instead of false ones.:oops:


    Therefore, you are essentially stating that salvation does not rest upon God's efforts alone, but on the will and efforts of men in addition to the Lord's.
    God's perfect will and power are sidestepped in favor of man's will and power, which are decidedly less trustworthy and reliable than God's.

    If that is not salvation by man's efforts ( works ), I do not know what else it could be.;)

    Simply put, it's man cooperating with God in gaining eternal life...and it is the same with all doctrines outside of what you would probably call "Calvinism" and the doctrines of election, predestination, calling, justification and glorification ( Romans 8:29-30 ).
    If salvation is not entirely of the Lord, 100%, then it is a cooperative effort between men and God... with eternal life ultimately hinging on the efforts of men to make their salvation a sure thing.

    Biblical salvation is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ) not a reward for good behavior.:Thumbsup
     
    #116 Dave G, Sep 1, 2019
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  17. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    How about everlasting torment?

    Mark 9:43-48.
    Matthew 25:46.
    2 Thessalonians 1:9.
    Revelation 14:9-11.

    Do you believe that all who end up in the Lake of Fire are punished with everlasting torment and destruction?
     
    #117 Dave G, Sep 1, 2019
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  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    #118 Yeshua1, Sep 1, 2019
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  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    What sin causes us to lose eternal life?
     
    #119 Yeshua1, Sep 1, 2019
  20. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    #120 Dave G, Sep 1, 2019
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