Featured Justification versus Eternal Redemption

If I said, after going to a well and getting a large bucket of water and transporting it to a village, "I brought this water with a bucket alone, and with a horse alone," I would be contradicting myself, right?

Only grace alone, when we get to the root of the matter, is how we are saved. This is true for both Old and New Testament Saints. The Old Testament Saints were saved after God's grace was bestowed in His revealing His will to men. This began with Adam and is seen in every believer mentioned in Scripture. Now, just as you mention "And we all wait the full redemption at His appearing," yet we are "saved" already, even so they were saved but awaiting "full Redemption." For them it was waiting for their sins to be covered by the Cross and the bestowal of eternal life through union with God and the redemption of the body and the Eternal State. For us it is the redemption of the body and the Eternal State. When the Rapture takes place the Church will receive their glorified bodies and will be that much closer to "full Redemption," whereas those living in the Millennial Kingdom will be born again and awaiting their glorified bodies (which can either take place at their deaths or at the end of that Age).

But everyone mentioned is "saved." But, not everyone mentioned is/was eternally redeemed. Meaning the Old Testament Saints, that is.

Please present Scripture to support a "pre-incarnate Christ." The term "Christ" is a title, whereas the Son of God is a Person. There was no Christ until the Son took up residence in the womb of Mary. This is why we call Messianic Prophecy...Messianic Prophecy. It foretells what is going to take place in the future. The Christ has a beginning in time, whereas the Son of God is Eternal God, the Creator. While I do take the view that it is the Son of God Who interacts with men in the Old Testament, He was not yet the Christ, and would not be until the Incarnation:


Hebrews 10 King James Version (KJV)

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

John 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 18:37
Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Again, this is why it is called Prophecy. Much of Revelation is spoken of in a past tense, yet we do not think that has been fulfilled, or that it was fulfilled at the time of the writing (some hold to the view that it is not a literal description of future events).

We agree that the Old Testament Saints did not go to Heaven when they died, the question is...why not?

Because they awaited Redemption through Christ, their sins had not yet been atoned for on an eternal basis, merely in a temporal context through the provision they had...animal sacrifice.

If you back up you will see that the Writer makes it clear that it was not until Christ died that the sins of the Old Testament Saints were redeemed:


Hebrews 9:12-15 King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


The "blood (death) of bulls, goats, and heifers" was the provision the Old Testament Saints had, and those sacrifices did not bring about remission of sins or atonement on an eternal basis, only the Blood (Death) of Christ can do that. We see marked in time His death and institution of the New Covenant. The Old Testament Saints were in need of redemption from the (Covenant of) Law, even the ones prior to the Covenant of Law being established, because "the Law" can also have a general application to the revealed will of God in any Age. When the Law was established it did not vary from the revelaed will men had been given before that, so those who were guilty of breaking the Law in the Ages prior to the Age of Law had to be redeemed as well.

Note that we also see that the promise of eternal inheritance is made sure by His death as well.


Hebrews 9:22-24 King James Version (KJV)

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


Again we see the distinction between His death and the death of animals. And that was the only provision they had. There is nothing in Scripture that applies the Atonement and Reconciliation on an eternal basis to the Old Testament Saints, and much that teaches the exact opposite.

In regards to v.28:

Hebrews 9:28 King James Version (KJV)

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


I would agree that this speaks of the redemption of the Body, primarily for those raptured, and secondly for those who go through the Tribulation.

God bless.

 

I am going to revisit this before getting to the othe post because I was pressed for time and there are several issues in this that should be addressed.

Not really, it is the logical conclusion of the teachings of Christ. I have already posted John 16:7, which states the Comforter cannot come unless Christ departs (and based on John 14 in view is not His death, but His return to His Father's House, Heaven), as well as this:

John 14:15-23 King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him


Most read this and miss the treasure of information given us:


1. Christ promises the coming of "another Comforter (v.16):" in other words the Comforter that will come (which cannot come unless He leaves)...

A. Hasn't come yet (and we cannot impose a context of Him returning);
B. Is One of the same quality (allos);
C. Takes up the role Christ is performing (as the Consolation of Israel);
D. Unlike the Christ...will be with them forever (and two things to note is that He is not with them "forever" at the time of this teaching and that this "forever" contrasts the departure Christ is teaching them).

2. The Spirit of Truth, the Comforter, is with them, but, after He comes He will be in them, again...forever. (v.16). This contrasts the filling of the Spirit which has taken place since the beginning and the Eternal Indwelling which is the promise of the Father in the Old Testament (Ezekiel 36:27; Acts 1:4-5).

3. When the Spirit, the Comforter comes, we see the Eternal Unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in that when the Comforter comes Christ also comes to those He indwells, which is the "riches of the glory of the Mystery of the Gospel...Christ in us (Colossians 1:25-27)

4. The promise of eternal life (v.19). As Christ teaches in John 6:53, no man had life, because no man was yet "eating of the flesh and drinking of the blood of CHrist, or in other words...believing on the Gospel (the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ)

5. Verse 20: "At that day..." when the Comforter comes, they will know that He is in the Father, that they are in Him (Jesus), and Jesus in them. We cannot impose an understanding that they will simply know this then and that it is already happening, because He has already stated the Comforter is with them...but not in them. The only logical conclusion one can draw is that at the time Christ teaches this to the disciples He is not in them, and they are not in Him. And one basic truth of the Church is that only those who are in Christ are the Church.

6. When He (the Comforter) comes, they will be indwelt by the Father (v.23 and implied in v.20), the Son (vv.18, 20, and 23), and the Holy Ghost (vv.16-17). Not only is this teaching the Trinity but makes the point that the disciples still await the indwelling of God in a New Covenant context.

There are numerous other passages we can look at to show that there is a distinct difference between the filling of the Spirit which took place in the Old Testament (and still takes place today) and the Eternal Indwelling of God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in the NeEw Coveant believer (which did not take place in the Old Testament.

Continued...

 

One can argue that the "church in the wilderness" was The Church," but they would have to disregard most of the teaching of the New Testament to take that view. There simply wasn't the first person in Christ prior to Pentecost. There wasn't the first person forgiven on an eternal basis, born again, and Baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Failure to recognize these basic truths are the reason so few know what it actually means to be in the Church, or what it means to be born again.

Such as?

There isn't a single statement I have presented that could be viewed as a "theory." But I would like to see which one you feel is.

Christ baptizes men with the Spirit as they come to faith in Him. THis was not a one-shot maneuver that one can impose into an Old Testament context. And the simple fact is that no-one was Baptized with the Holy Ghost until Pentecost:


Acts 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

The disciples are not yet Baptized with Holy Ghost, which is what Christ defines the "Promise of the Father" as.

I can understand a view that sees the Church, the Temple of God, as the Holy of Holies, but I tend to view Christ, not the Church, as the Most Holy that is anointed:


Luke 4:17-19 King James Version (KJV)

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.


I would also point out that it is not until Pentecost that the disciples begin to preach the Gospel.

"Scriptural baptism" has nothing to do with salvation, only the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. This is the immersion of the believer into God and God into them.

"More public preaching of the Gospel?" The Gospel was not revealed to men until Pentecost.

I have shown you that the disciples were not only unaware of the Gospel Mystery but Peter is actually opposed to it:


Matthew 16:20-23 King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


Note that this is late in Christ's ministry and in v.21 we see "...from that time forth..." Jesus began to preach the Gospel.

And Peter rejects it.


Continued...

 

So how exactly did people become a part of the Church when they were not in Christ?

Think about this: were theirJewish believers? Gentile believers? So why is it that they were not one in Christ prior to Pentecost?

First, a man does not have a soul...he is a soul. Just want to point out my position on this so it doesn't confuse things later.

Secondly, no man was a partaker of the divine nature until they began to be immersed into Christ (the Baptism with the Holy Ghost). One way to understand that is to understand that no man had the Gospel revealed to Him prior to Pentecost. I have given you several passages which seem to have been ignored so will just give you one this time:

Colossians 1:25-27 King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


What is the "...mystery that was hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints?" It is the Gospel.

What is the "...riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you..." referring to? The indwelling of God, which Christ makes clear in John 14:15-23 hadn't taken place yet.

Petnecost has everything to do with the Holy Spirit coming, and being placed in the believer, as well as the believer being placed in Him. It is the only logical conclusionto be derived from Christ's teachings in John 14-16. THose are the teachings the disciples heard from Him concerning the Promise of the Father (Acts 1:4-5).

Please quote and comment on John 14:15-23. You are saying the exact opposite of what Christ teaches there, which is that at a future time they will receive the Comforter (but not before He returns to Heaven (John 14:1-3; John 16:7)), and that they will be indwelt by the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

How exactly did Christ indwell the disciples when He was with them? How can we ignore His prophetic teaching of when they would be?


God bless.

 

Please present the Scripture. I really don't have time to pull up Scripture you think is relevant. I have enough to do to present those I feel to be relevant.

And this has already been answered: this is why it is called Prophecy.


God bless.

 

If you are implying that I view water baptism as salvific then you certainly aren't paying attention to what is being posted.

Only the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is salvific, and Christ is the Baptizer, not men.

You will need to understand what is being taught before you have the right to call it "confusion." The confusion is not on my part. Everything that has been posted has been given a Scriptural basis and you have had opportunity to address those points, yet you have not.

Perhaps actually reading the posts might help?

Not sure what this is supposed to mean exactly.

Okay, so let's start with the basics: what does it mean to be born again?


God bless.

 

I would agree...this is one of the biggest misconceptions in the Church, and it is by throwing unrelated verses together and taking verses out of context that people remain under those misconceptions.

I had not yet had a chance to address your post concerning Galatians, so I will do so now:


Galatians 4:28-29 King James Version (KJV)

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.


In regards to the flesh and the Spirit, the former is the will of man, the latter the will of God. I will ask you one question: are you trying to say that Isaac was born...having the Spirit of God?

That is the only conclusion that could be drawn if you try to make their births to refer to one receiving the Spirit. It would have to refer to their births for Ishmael did not become flesh at some later point, nor did Isaac become or receive the Spirit at some later point. Just an illogical proof text.

And I haven't gotten to all of your posts yet, so cannot account for the new ones, but you have never addressed the posts pointing out that Regeneration was a result of Christ dying on the Cross:

Are you saying that when Nicodemus asks "how can these things be?" that the answer isn't that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Is being lifted up referring to something else?

I will at this time begin to limit my responses to you in direct questions regarding the points raised because you are avoiding much that has been given.


God bless.

 

?

So explain what being baptized with the Holy Ghost is.


Continued...

 

Insults rather than addressing your antagonist's points is really bad form. Perhaps if you simply dealt with the points being made you would not have to stoop to such poor standards.

Secondly...there is only one Church, not churches.

More insinuation.

So let's address the point that the Spirit was not sent prior to Pentecost. You say men always received Him, let's again look at what Christ said:


John 16:7 King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


What does this mean if not that the Spirit could not come (the implication being He had not yet come) until Christ returned to Heaven?


Continued...

 

I would agree, so why is it that you cannot see such a simple point as the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is when we are saved and born again? That is when we are immersed into Christ. So let's take a look at two passages and Iask you to address the points made this time:


Acts 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


Points:

1. The disciples are not yet baptized with the Holy Ghost. Not open for debate.

2. Christ defines what they are waiting for (the Promise of the Father) as the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. Not open for debate.


Acts 11:13-18 King James Version (KJV)

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


Points:

1. Peter spoke words to Cornelius by which they were...saved. That Word was the Gospel (see Acts 10);

2. When He spoke the words, the Gospel...the Holy Ghost fell on them. They received the Holy Ghost when they were saved;

3. Being saved and the Holy Ghost falling on them is defined by Peter as the Baptism with the Holy Ghost;

4. WHat Cornelius and his household received was the same thing that Peter and those saved at Pentecost (the beginning) received, the GIft of God, not gifts from God (which is obvious since they are both saved through this experince).

5. God grants to the Gentiles, as He did with the Jews...repentance unto life. As I mentioned before, no man had (eternal) life prior to Pentecost and the coming of the Spirit promised by God in the Old Testament and taught of by Christ (Ezekiel 36:27; John 14:15-23; John 16:7; Acts 1:4-5). Receiving the Spirit of God is how we receive new life, it is the New Birth itself.

Now please address these points and show this "confusions" and "misconception" as well as providing your own commentary and points on these two passages.


Continued...

 

It is salvation itself:


Acts 11:13-18 King James Version (KJV)

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


Continued...