Justification versus Eternal Redemption

[Darrell C]

That is to be understood as to what faith alone means. By God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

If I said, after going to a well and getting a large bucket of water and transporting it to a village, "I brought this water with a bucket alone, and with a horse alone," I would be contradicting myself, right?

Only grace alone, when we get to the root of the matter, is how we are saved. This is true for both Old and New Testament Saints. The Old Testament Saints were saved after God's grace was bestowed in His revealing His will to men. This began with Adam and is seen in every believer mentioned in Scripture. Now, just as you mention "And we all wait the full redemption at His appearing," yet we are "saved" already, even so they were saved but awaiting "full Redemption." For them it was waiting for their sins to be covered by the Cross and the bestowal of eternal life through union with God and the redemption of the body and the Eternal State. For us it is the redemption of the body and the Eternal State. When the Rapture takes place the Church will receive their glorified bodies and will be that much closer to "full Redemption," whereas those living in the Millennial Kingdom will be born again and awaiting their glorified bodies (which can either take place at their deaths or at the end of that Age).

But everyone mentioned is "saved." But, not everyone mentioned is/was eternally redeemed. Meaning the Old Testament Saints, that is.

When Abraham was later (like some 50 years later) justified by his work, the LORD God who also justfied him was none other than the preincarnate Christ (Genesis 22:12; John 1:18; John 14:6) who appeared to him.

Please present Scripture to support a "pre-incarnate Christ." The term "Christ" is a title, whereas the Son of God is a Person. There was no Christ until the Son took up residence in the womb of Mary. This is why we call Messianic Prophecy...Messianic Prophecy. It foretells what is going to take place in the future. The Christ has a beginning in time, whereas the Son of God is Eternal God, the Creator. While I do take the view that it is the Son of God Who interacts with men in the Old Testament, He was not yet the Christ, and would not be until the Incarnation:


Hebrews 10 King James Version (KJV)

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

John 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 18:37
Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Isaiah the prophet wrote of it as if it were a past event, Isaiah 53:1-12.

Again, this is why it is called Prophecy. Much of Revelation is spoken of in a past tense, yet we do not think that has been fulfilled, or that it was fulfilled at the time of the writing (some hold to the view that it is not a literal description of future events).

And Abraham with all the OT saints were taken to be with Christ at His ascension (Ephsians 4:8).

We agree that the Old Testament Saints did not go to Heaven when they died, the question is...why not?

Because they awaited Redemption through Christ, their sins had not yet been atoned for on an eternal basis, merely in a temporal context through the provision they had...animal sacrifice.

And we all wait the full redemption at His appearing, Hebrews 9:28, Romans 8:23, 1 John 3:2.

If you back up you will see that the Writer makes it clear that it was not until Christ died that the sins of the Old Testament Saints were redeemed:


Hebrews 9:12-15 King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


The "blood (death) of bulls, goats, and heifers" was the provision the Old Testament Saints had, and those sacrifices did not bring about remission of sins or atonement on an eternal basis, only the Blood (Death) of Christ can do that. We see marked in time His death and institution of the New Covenant. The Old Testament Saints were in need of redemption from the (Covenant of) Law, even the ones prior to the Covenant of Law being established, because "the Law" can also have a general application to the revealed will of God in any Age. When the Law was established it did not vary from the revelaed will men had been given before that, so those who were guilty of breaking the Law in the Ages prior to the Age of Law had to be redeemed as well.

Note that we also see that the promise of eternal inheritance is made sure by His death as well.


Hebrews 9:22-24 King James Version (KJV)

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


Again we see the distinction between His death and the death of animals. And that was the only provision they had. There is nothing in Scripture that applies the Atonement and Reconciliation on an eternal basis to the Old Testament Saints, and much that teaches the exact opposite.

In regards to v.28:

Hebrews 9:28 King James Version (KJV)

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


I would agree that this speaks of the redemption of the Body, primarily for those raptured, and secondly for those who go through the Tribulation.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I am going to revisit this before getting to the othe post because I was pressed for time and there are several issues in this that should be addressed.

"It's not really open for debate, the Spirit was sent on the Day of Pentecost and that is when men began to believe on Jesus Christ."

This is an enormous misconception.

Not really, it is the logical conclusion of the teachings of Christ. I have already posted John 16:7, which states the Comforter cannot come unless Christ departs (and based on John 14 in view is not His death, but His return to His Father's House, Heaven), as well as this:

John 14:15-23 King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him


Most read this and miss the treasure of information given us:


1. Christ promises the coming of "another Comforter (v.16):" in other words the Comforter that will come (which cannot come unless He leaves)...

A. Hasn't come yet (and we cannot impose a context of Him returning);
B. Is One of the same quality (allos);
C. Takes up the role Christ is performing (as the Consolation of Israel);
D. Unlike the Christ...will be with them forever (and two things to note is that He is not with them "forever" at the time of this teaching and that this "forever" contrasts the departure Christ is teaching them).

2. The Spirit of Truth, the Comforter, is with them, but, after He comes He will be in them, again...forever. (v.16). This contrasts the filling of the Spirit which has taken place since the beginning and the Eternal Indwelling which is the promise of the Father in the Old Testament (Ezekiel 36:27; Acts 1:4-5).

3. When the Spirit, the Comforter comes, we see the Eternal Unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in that when the Comforter comes Christ also comes to those He indwells, which is the "riches of the glory of the Mystery of the Gospel...Christ in us (Colossians 1:25-27)

4. The promise of eternal life (v.19). As Christ teaches in John 6:53, no man had life, because no man was yet "eating of the flesh and drinking of the blood of CHrist, or in other words...believing on the Gospel (the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ)

5. Verse 20: "At that day..." when the Comforter comes, they will know that He is in the Father, that they are in Him (Jesus), and Jesus in them. We cannot impose an understanding that they will simply know this then and that it is already happening, because He has already stated the Comforter is with them...but not in them. The only logical conclusion one can draw is that at the time Christ teaches this to the disciples He is not in them, and they are not in Him. And one basic truth of the Church is that only those who are in Christ are the Church.

6. When He (the Comforter) comes, they will be indwelt by the Father (v.23 and implied in v.20), the Son (vv.18, 20, and 23), and the Holy Ghost (vv.16-17). Not only is this teaching the Trinity but makes the point that the disciples still await the indwelling of God in a New Covenant context.

There are numerous other passages we can look at to show that there is a distinct difference between the filling of the Spirit which took place in the Old Testament (and still takes place today) and the Eternal Indwelling of God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in the NeEw Coveant believer (which did not take place in the Old Testament.

Continued...

 

[37818]

Please present Scripture to support a "pre-incarnate Christ." The term "Christ" is a title, whereas the Son of God is a Person. There was no Christ until the Son took up residence in the womb of Mary.

Isaiah wrote of Him as the Christ in the past tense, Isaiah 53:1-12. The writer of the second Psalm referred to the Son as the risen Christ, Acts of the Apostles 13:33.

 

[Darrell C]

There can be no understanding of 'Church Truth', however, without first learning the Biblical usage of the word, 'church', and what it means and is, to Jesus.

One can argue that the "church in the wilderness" was The Church," but they would have to disregard most of the teaching of the New Testament to take that view. There simply wasn't the first person in Christ prior to Pentecost. There wasn't the first person forgiven on an eternal basis, born again, and Baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Failure to recognize these basic truths are the reason so few know what it actually means to be in the Church, or what it means to be born again.

Anyway, that brings on innumerable misguided theories that are not what God would have us to understand, from His Word.

Such as?

There isn't a single statement I have presented that could be viewed as a "theory." But I would like to see which one you feel is.

Jesus Christ baptized His church entity, as a Corporate Institution, Divinely Originated by Him.

Christ baptizes men with the Spirit as they come to faith in Him. THis was not a one-shot maneuver that one can impose into an Old Testament context. And the simple fact is that no-one was Baptized with the Holy Ghost until Pentecost:


Acts 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

The disciples are not yet Baptized with Holy Ghost, which is what Christ defines the "Promise of the Father" as.

That was what happened on The Day of Pentecost, in Fulfillment of Daniel 9, when Jesus was Prophecied to Annoint The Most Holy.

I can understand a view that sees the Church, the Temple of God, as the Holy of Holies, but I tend to view Christ, not the Church, as the Most Holy that is anointed:


Luke 4:17-19 King James Version (KJV)

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.


I would also point out that it is not until Pentecost that the disciples begin to preach the Gospel.

Lots of individuals, by the thousands, were added to the Lord's church assembly on that day, by Salvation and Scriptural Baptism.

"Scriptural baptism" has nothing to do with salvation, only the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. This is the immersion of the believer into God and God into them.

In general, a bunch of people began to believe on The Lord, under the more public Preaching of The Gospel

"More public preaching of the Gospel?" The Gospel was not revealed to men until Pentecost.

I have shown you that the disciples were not only unaware of the Gospel Mystery but Peter is actually opposed to it:


Matthew 16:20-23 King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


Note that this is late in Christ's ministry and in v.21 we see "...from that time forth..." Jesus began to preach the Gospel.

And Peter rejects it.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

and the Public Inugralaration of the Lord's church gathering of congregated, Organized assembly, in His Name, when Jesus Baptized The Most Holy church He Built, with The End welling Shaina Glory.

So how exactly did people become a part of the Church when they were not in Christ?

Think about this: were theirJewish believers? Gentile believers? So why is it that they were not one in Christ prior to Pentecost?

All the Saved souls from the time of Adam, were Partakers of The Divine Nature.

First, a man does not have a soul...he is a soul. Just want to point out my position on this so it doesn't confuse things later.

Secondly, no man was a partaker of the divine nature until they began to be immersed into Christ (the Baptism with the Holy Ghost). One way to understand that is to understand that no man had the Gospel revealed to Him prior to Pentecost. I have given you several passages which seem to have been ignored so will just give you one this time:

Colossians 1:25-27 King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


What is the "...mystery that was hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints?" It is the Gospel.

What is the "...riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you..." referring to? The indwelling of God, which Christ makes clear in John 14:15-23 hadn't taken place yet.

Pentecost has nothing to do with The Holy Spirit being Placed in a believer,

Petnecost has everything to do with the Holy Spirit coming, and being placed in the believer, as well as the believer being placed in Him. It is the only logical conclusionto be derived from Christ's teachings in John 14-16. THose are the teachings the disciples heard from Him concerning the Promise of the Father (Acts 1:4-5).

other than those normally Endwelt when they were Saved, and nothing to do with people experiencing Salvation for the first time.

Please quote and comment on John 14:15-23. You are saying the exact opposite of what Christ teaches there, which is that at a future time they will receive the Comforter (but not before He returns to Heaven (John 14:1-3; John 16:7)), and that they will be indwelt by the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

How exactly did Christ indwell the disciples when He was with them? How can we ignore His prophetic teaching of when they would be?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Isaiah wrote of Him as the Christ in the past tense, Isaiah 53:1-12. The writer of the second Psalm referred to the Son as the risen Christ, Acts of the Apostles 13:33.

Please present the Scripture. I really don't have time to pull up Scripture you think is relevant. I have enough to do to present those I feel to be relevant.

And this has already been answered: this is why it is called Prophecy.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

OH, you have, 'baptism saves someone' s soul'.

Wow.

If you are implying that I view water baptism as salvific then you certainly aren't paying attention to what is being posted.

Only the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is salvific, and Christ is the Baptizer, not men.

No wonder you think all this confusion.

Very odd.

Unusual.

You will need to understand what is being taught before you have the right to call it "confusion." The confusion is not on my part. Everything that has been posted has been given a Scriptural basis and you have had opportunity to address those points, yet you have not.

I can't imagine seeing that, in my reasoning I do, even with the flesh.

Perhaps actually reading the posts might help?

I knew The Lord many years before sitting under Teaching and it was the best.

Not sure what this is supposed to mean exactly.

Salvation is easier to see by a Born Again person with The Holy Spirit Bering Witness to the Words of God, in The Bible.

Okay, so let's start with the basics: what does it mean to be born again?


God bless.

 

[Alan Gross]

I am going to revisit this before getting to the othe post because I was pressed for time and there are several issues in this that should be addressed.




Not really, it is the logical conclusion of the teachings of Christ. I have already posted John 16:7, which states the Comforter cannot come unless Christ departs (and based on John 14 in view is not His death, but His return to His Father's House, Heaven), as well as this:

John 14:15-23 King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him


Most read this and miss the treasure of information given us:


1. Christ promises the coming of "another Comforter (v.16):" in other words the Comforter that will come (which cannot come unless He leaves)...

A. Hasn't come yet (and we cannot impose a context of Him returning);
B. Is One of the same quality (allos);
C. Takes up the role Christ is performing (as the Consolation of Israel);
D. Unlike the Christ...will be with them forever (and two things to note is that He is not with them "forever" at the time of this teaching and that this "forever" contrasts the departure Christ is teaching them).

2. The Spirit of Truth, the Comforter, is with them, but, after He comes He will be in them, again...forever. (v.16). This contrasts the filling of the Spirit which has taken place since the beginning and the Eternal Indwelling which is the promise of the Father in the Old Testament (Ezekiel 36:27; Acts 1:4-5).

3. When the Spirit, the Comforter comes, we see the Eternal Unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in that when the Comforter comes Christ also comes to those He indwells, which is the "riches of the glory of the Mystery of the Gospel...Christ in us (Colossians 1:25-27)

4. The promise of eternal life (v.19). As Christ teaches in John 6:53, no man had life, because no man was yet "eating of the flesh and drinking of the blood of CHrist, or in other words...believing on the Gospel (the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ)

5. Verse 20: "At that day..." when the Comforter comes, they will know that He is in the Father, that they are in Him (Jesus), and Jesus in them. We cannot impose an understanding that they will simply know this then and that it is already happening, because He has already stated the Comforter is with them...but not in them. The only logical conclusion one can draw is that at the time Christ teaches this to the disciples He is not in them, and they are not in Him. And one basic truth of the Church is that only those who are in Christ are the Church.

6. When He (the Comforter) comes, they will be indwelt by the Father (v.23 and implied in v.20), the Son (vv.18, 20, and 23), and the Holy Ghost (vv.16-17). Not only is this teaching the Trinity but makes the point that the disciples still await the indwelling of God in a New Covenant context.

There are numerous other passages we can look at to show that there is a distinct difference between the filling of the Spirit which took place in the Old Testament (and still takes place today) and the Eternal Indwelling of God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in the NeEw Coveant believer (which did not take place in the Old Testament.

Continued...

This continues to be enormous misconception.

King James Version
"But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now." Galatians 4:29.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:6.

With no understanding of Jesus Speaking about being Born of The Spirit, there is no reason to believe there could be an understanding of what did and what did not happen on Pentecost, when a soul was 'born after the Spirit', in The Old Testament.

 

[Alan Gross]

If you are implying that I view water baptism as salvific then you certainly aren't paying attention to what is being posted.

Only the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is salvific, and Christ is the Baptizer, not men.




You will need to understand what is being taught before you have the right to call it "confusion." The confusion is not on my part. Everything that has been posted has been given a Scriptural basis and you have had opportunity to address those points, yet you have not.




Perhaps actually reading the posts might help?






Not sure what this is supposed to mean exactly.




Okay, so let's start with the basics: what does it mean to be born again?


God bless.

When JESUS baptized with The Holy Spirit, it involved nothing with regard to Salvation.

Without a Love for God and The Bible, an understanding of The churches Jesus Built and Loved and died for is not happening, so anyone like that, not caring at all about anything about the Bible Teaching on even WHAT A 'CHURCH' IS, needs to forget about thinking they know something about Pentecost.

Salvation is easier to see by a Born Again person with The Holy Spirit Bering Witness to the Words of God, in The Bible.

When JESUS baptized with The Holy Spirit, it involved nothing with regard to Salvation.

That would not be a Testimony of Salvation, then.

This is not how God Saves souls, Saved anyone, and it does not have a thing to do with Salvation:

This is not Biblical and not of God:

"Only the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is salvific, and Christ is the Baptizer, not men."

 

[MB]

For 500 years we have seen Catholics and Protestants dispute how one is justified. By faith alone as Paul teaches, or, as James teaches, by faith and works.

There is a simple solution: both are, in the critical passages, speaking about justification...not Eternal Redemption. Abraham was justified by faith alone, but, he was also justified by faith and works. And as long as you do not impose an eternal aspect to that justification you will have no problem maintaining the proper distinction between passages dealing with Old Testament Saints being justified in a temporal context and men being eternally redeemed through the shed blood of Christ.

When Salvation is in view, we are told how that is accomplished:


Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

There is no contradiction to be found in James' statement, because he isn't stating how Abraham was eternally redeemed, but, how he was justified. That there is a Temporal Justification in Scripture and that this is the issue discussed by both James and Paul is something we must take into consideration. Let's take a look at a few passages dealing with justification that clearly speak of Temporal Justification:


Luke 18:11-14 King James Version (KJV)

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


James 2:24-25 King James Version (KJV)

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?


Most would acknowledge that James is teaching from a temporal perspective, rather than an eternal. If he were not...would we not have to conclude that one could be saved/eternally redeemed by giving food to the hungry and clothing to those who are cold? We would. So the suggestion I make for those who have struggled with the seemingly contradictory statements between James and Paul is to simply maintain these passages in their proper context and there is no problem. The problem arises when, as many do, there is an equation between the justification of men in a temporal context and Eternal Redemption which can only be accomplished through the death of Christ in the stead of the sinner. Men can be justified by faith only, as well as by faith and works, but, men can only be eternally redeemed by grace through specific faith in Jesus Christ and His death in our stead.

Paul makes a distinction between Jew and Gentile in Romans 2-3, but brings both under condemnation despite justificationby obedience to the revealed will of God:


Romans 3:9-12 King James Version (KJV)

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


Unless we maintain a proper context between the eternal and the temporal, one might find a contradiction between the righteousness mentioned here (which no man has) and the righteousness imputed to people like Abraham, Rahab, and the Publican sinner. It's a fact: Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God (concerning God's promises, in particular that his wife-beyond the age of bearing children-would produce him a son). So does v. 10 contradict that declaration of righteousness? Not at all, because Abraham was Justified according to his temporal existence...not on an eternal basis. Paul will go on, again, to make a distinction between the previous economies and the one in which he writes:


Romans 3:21-26 King James Version (KJV)

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


How many people placed faith in Jesus Christ prior to the Cross? Not one.

Abraham was justified by belief, faith, and works, so including him, Rahab, the Publican sinner, and anyone else you would like to include, how many were righteous?

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:


So again, I suggest this to those who, as I said, have struggled with what is argued as contradictory between Catholics and Protestants. Hopefully the simple truth of the distinction we must make between the justification of the Old Testament Saint and Eternal Redemption through Christ our Lord will be just that...simple to understand.

I will leave you with another statement that has an eternal context and points out, as does Romans 3:25, that the sins of the Old Testament Saints were never forgiven on an eternal basis during their lifetimes:


Hebrews 9:12-15 King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


God bless

No one is saved by Grace alone and the Bible never even once says such a thing. We are saved by Grace through faith. No Faith, No grace. Open your eyes to the complete truth of that verse.
MB

 

[Alan Gross]

So how exactly did people become a part of the Church when they were not in Christ?

Think about this: were theirJewish believers? Gentile believers? So why is it that they were not one in Christ prior to Pentecost?




First, a man does not have a soul...he is a soul. Just want to point out my position on this so it doesn't confuse things later.

Secondly, no man was a partaker of the divine nature until they began to be immersed into Christ (the Baptism with the Holy Ghost). One way to understand that is to understand that no man had the Gospel revealed to Him prior to Pentecost. I have given you several passages which seem to have been ignored so will just give you one this time:

Colossians 1:25-27 King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


What is the "...mystery that was hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints?" It is the Gospel.

What is the "...riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you..." referring to? The indwelling of God, which Christ makes clear in John 14:15-23 hadn't taken place yet.




Petnecost has everything to do with the Holy Spirit coming, and being placed in the believer, as well as the believer being placed in Him. It is the only logical conclusionto be derived from Christ's teachings in John 14-16. THose are the teachings the disciples heard from Him concerning the Promise of the Father (Acts 1:4-5).




Please quote and comment on John 14:15-23. You are saying the exact opposite of what Christ teaches there, which is that at a future time they will receive the Comforter (but not before He returns to Heaven (John 14:1-3; John 16:7)), and that they will be indwelt by the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

How exactly did Christ indwell the disciples when He was with them? How can we ignore His prophetic teaching of when they would be?


God bless.

"no man was a partaker of the divine nature until they began to be immersed into Christ (the Baptism with the Holy Ghost)."

Jesus baptizing with The Holy Spirit has nothing to do with any soul receiving The Divine Nature.

Not knowing that is one thing and having zero interest in what God Taught there is a nothing thing, altogether.

"One way to understand that is to understand that no man had the Gospel revealed to Him prior to Pentecost."

Adam had The Gospel Preached to him in the Garden and was Saved, there, from having a soul that was dead, in trespasses and sins.

 

[Alan Gross]

Isaiah wrote of Him as the Christ in the past tense, Isaiah 53:1-12. The writer of the second Psalm referred to the Son as the risen Christ, Acts of the Apostles 13:33.

The Bible Teaching Exactly How Long Jesus was in Existence, Rejoicing before God the Father, here:

Proverbs 8:22 "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23" I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 "When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25" Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26 "While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27" When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28 "When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29" When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30 "Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;"

The answer is, "always".

 

[Alan Gross]

If you are implying that I view water baptism as salvific then you certainly aren't paying attention to what is being posted.

Only the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is salvific, and Christ is the Baptizer, not men.




You will need to understand what is being taught before you have the right to call it "confusion." The confusion is not on my part. Everything that has been posted has been given a Scriptural basis and you have had opportunity to address those points, yet you have not.




Perhaps actually reading the posts might help?






Not sure what this is supposed to mean exactly.




Okay, so let's start with the basics: what does it mean to be born again?


God bless.

"OH, you have, 'baptism saves someone' s soul'.

There is no Teaching that can be seen from God's Word of The Holy Spirit baptizing anything, or any 'baptism' of The Holy Spirit related to Salvation.

There are now a lot more things The Bible does not Teach.

Wow.

No wonder you think all this confusion.

 

[George Antonios]

The solution is simple: it depends on the age one is in.
Paul is speaking to church age believers.
James was speaking to Jews living in the first few chapters of Acts (where the context was potentially tribulational) and also now prospectively to tribulation Jews.
During the church age, justification is by faith alone.
During the tribulation, justification is by faith and works.
We must be rightly dividing.

 

[Alan Gross]

The solution is simple: it depends on the age one is in.
Paul is speaking to church age believers.
James was speaking to Jews living in the first few chapters of Acts (where the context was potentially tribulational) and also now prospectively to tribulation Jews.
During the church age, justification is by faith alone.
During the tribulation, justification is by faith and works.
We must be rightly dividing.

Except in the case where people understand that Jesus is The Savior.

Those Saved souls, who were Saved by Jesus know that a Jesus is The Savior.

There is One Way of Salvation.

Jesus Christ is The Way.

Both Testaments.

 

[Darrell C]

This continues to be enormous misconception.

King James Version
"But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now." Galatians 4:29.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:6.

With no understanding of Jesus Speaking about being Born of The Spirit, there is no reason to believe there could be an understanding of what did and what did not happen on Pentecost, when a soul was 'born after the Spirit', in The Old Testament.

I would agree...this is one of the biggest misconceptions in the Church, and it is by throwing unrelated verses together and taking verses out of context that people remain under those misconceptions.

I had not yet had a chance to address your post concerning Galatians, so I will do so now:


Galatians 4:28-29 King James Version (KJV)

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.


In regards to the flesh and the Spirit, the former is the will of man, the latter the will of God. I will ask you one question: are you trying to say that Isaac was born...having the Spirit of God?

That is the only conclusion that could be drawn if you try to make their births to refer to one receiving the Spirit. It would have to refer to their births for Ishmael did not become flesh at some later point, nor did Isaac become or receive the Spirit at some later point. Just an illogical proof text.

And I haven't gotten to all of your posts yet, so cannot account for the new ones, but you have never addressed the posts pointing out that Regeneration was a result of Christ dying on the Cross:

Even the popular belief (particularly among the Reformed) that men have always been born again throughout the Ages needs to be understood as something that was accomplished...by the Cross of Christ:


John 3:3-5 King James Version (KJV)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


John 3:9-16 King James Version (KJV)

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Christ's answer as to how a man can be born again is...He must be lifted up (v.14). And the result was that men might have everlasting life. The impliction being men had not yet received eternal life yet, and that is pretty obvious when we consider that it is not until after Pentecost that men are Baptized with the Spirit, or in other words...immersed into Christ. Christ also taught that as well, making the distinction between the Eternal Indwelling of God and the filling that took place in Old Testament exonomies:

Are you saying that when Nicodemus asks "how can these things be?" that the answer isn't that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Is being lifted up referring to something else?

I will at this time begin to limit my responses to you in direct questions regarding the points raised because you are avoiding much that has been given.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

When JESUS baptized with The Holy Spirit, it involved nothing with regard to Salvation.

?

So explain what being baptized with the Holy Ghost is.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Without a Love for God and The Bible, an understanding of The churches Jesus Built

Insults rather than addressing your antagonist's points is really bad form. Perhaps if you simply dealt with the points being made you would not have to stoop to such poor standards.

Secondly...there is only one Church, not churches.

and Loved and died for is not happening, so anyone like that, not caring at all about anything about the Bible Teaching on even WHAT A 'CHURCH' IS, needs to forget about thinking they know something about Pentecost.

More insinuation.

So let's address the point that the Spirit was not sent prior to Pentecost. You say men always received Him, let's again look at what Christ said:


John 16:7 King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


What does this mean if not that the Spirit could not come (the implication being He had not yet come) until Christ returned to Heaven?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Salvation is easier to see by a Born Again person with The Holy Spirit Bering Witness to the Words of God, in The Bible.

I would agree, so why is it that you cannot see such a simple point as the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is when we are saved and born again? That is when we are immersed into Christ. So let's take a look at two passages and Iask you to address the points made this time:


Acts 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


Points:

1. The disciples are not yet baptized with the Holy Ghost. Not open for debate.

2. Christ defines what they are waiting for (the Promise of the Father) as the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. Not open for debate.


Acts 11:13-18 King James Version (KJV)

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


Points:

1. Peter spoke words to Cornelius by which they were...saved. That Word was the Gospel (see Acts 10);

2. When He spoke the words, the Gospel...the Holy Ghost fell on them. They received the Holy Ghost when they were saved;

3. Being saved and the Holy Ghost falling on them is defined by Peter as the Baptism with the Holy Ghost;

4. WHat Cornelius and his household received was the same thing that Peter and those saved at Pentecost (the beginning) received, the GIft of God, not gifts from God (which is obvious since they are both saved through this experince).

5. God grants to the Gentiles, as He did with the Jews...repentance unto life. As I mentioned before, no man had (eternal) life prior to Pentecost and the coming of the Spirit promised by God in the Old Testament and taught of by Christ (Ezekiel 36:27; John 14:15-23; John 16:7; Acts 1:4-5). Receiving the Spirit of God is how we receive new life, it is the New Birth itself.

Now please address these points and show this "confusions" and "misconception" as well as providing your own commentary and points on these two passages.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

When JESUS baptized with The Holy Spirit, it involved nothing with regard to Salvation.

It is salvation itself:


Acts 11:13-18 King James Version (KJV)

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


Continued...