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Justification versus Eternal Redemption
- Thread starter Darrell C
- Start date
You just keep on going though you can talk to your self all you want. Your the only person that agrees with you.So Abraham received God's grace because God knew Abraham would do the right thing and be "faithful enough?"
Kind of destroys that men are saved by grace and mercy, doesn't it?
Absolutely agree.
"Perfect" does not, in the Greek...have anything to do with being flawless. It speaks of completion, and the completion in view is in regards to the reason why men are "perfect" or not:
Hebrews 10:1-4 King James Version (KJV)
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Not being made perfect/complete means that the sin/s were not taken away. To be made perfect means that the goal has been accomplished, and the reason for the death (blood) of bulls and goats was for the remission of sins and atonement.
Only Christ's death can make perfect, and this on an eternal basis:
Hebrews 10:10-14 King James Version (KJV)
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
And that "perfection" wasn't available in the Old Testament. Their sins were not forgiven on an eternal basis until Christ died in their stead.
And this was the promise they did not receive...
Hebrews 10:15-18 King James Version (KJV)
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
The perfected Saint is not flawless, but...he has been made complete in regards to remission of sins forever.
Continued...
That is actually a debatable point if you dig into it. I lean heavily towards the fact that Old Testament Saints were brought into Eternal Union with God (as we have) at the Cross and thereby were born again as we are, but if you consider Old Testament Prophecy concerning Resurrection there is a slight possibility that they will be raised physically and live during the Millennial Kingdom. Again, I lean towards their being the former, but it would make for an interesting discussion.
Agree with that as well. Christ liberated then from Sheol/Hades when He died for them and atoned for their sin.
Not concerning their justification while alive, That is like the justification seen in James: temporal. The Publican sinner was justified before God, but perhaps you would agree that he was not saved at that time on an eternal basis (before the Cross). If the Old Testament Saints died awaiting Eternal Redemption, so he too had to await the Cross, Resurrection, and Ascension (if he was still alive at that time).
Again, depends on which form of justification you speak of. If speaking of Justification through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus, agreed, that is immediate.
Agreed as long as the "perfect" you refer to doesn't mean "flawless," which itself implessinlessness. No physical Saint is going to be without sin and flawless while in this body.
God bless.
Where exactly do you see Jesus mentioned in this? The Son of GOd is Eternal God, the Creator, Jesus Christ was born of a virgin some two thousand years ago. There is a point in time when He is named:
Luke 1:30-32 King James Version (KJV)
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
The WORD of God was made flesh, the Son of God made flesh, not that Jesus Christ, in the Body He died in...has always existed. That body has a beginning in time and space:
Hebrews 10:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Galatians 4:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
The Son of God has always interacted with men (i.e., in the Garden, Genesis 18), but the Christ arrived at the appointed time.
God bless.
Again, the Gospel was a Mystery to past Ages and Generations, so it is simply not possible to have people believing on Jesus before they even knew what it is they had to place faith in:
Romans 16:25-26 King James Version (KJV)
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Ephesians 3:3-5 King James Version (KJV)
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Colossians 1:25-27 King James Version (KJV)
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
I emphasize Ephesians 3:5 because it makes the statement that the Mystery is now revealed by the Spirit. This is the Promise of the father Christ teaches about in John 14-16.
1 Corinthians 1:18-2:16 is a chapter and a half on the subject.
God bless.
So ask yourself this question: how can you say Abraham was declared righteous then maintain that in an eternal context with the above statement? Not only in the Psalmist's day, but in Paul's day it still remained true:
Romans 3:10-12 King James Version (KJV)
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
When was "There are none righteous" written? Before...or after Abraham?
This shows that we are dealing with two differing contexts. From a temporal perspective there are none righteous. From an eternal perspective only those who by the grace of God have freely been justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus are...righteous. If Abraham was righteous enough to be eternally redeemed because he believed God and had faith and works...Christ did not need to die for him. But because he was simply righteous among men, and had not received the righteousness of Christ yet, we cannot equate those two "righteousnesses." They are two different righteousnesses based on two different things. The former based on what Abraham (and Rahab, and the Publican sinner, and the Gentiles of Romans 2:13-15) did, the latter based on what Christ did.
God bless.
Sounds like you have a complex about Calvinists. I am going to guess you don't do very well in trying to have discussions with them either.
It is both explicit and implicit throughot Scripture. God called Abraham...and then Abraham was able to have faith. After God revealed His truth and will for Abraham. Did Abraham have faith before that? No, because Abraham was not seeking after God. No man does. God always initiates relationship. There isn't a single man or woman in Scripture that God, by His grace and mercy...did not go to first.
No grace...no faith.
And how exactly, lol, do you think you began to have faith? Did you just decide one day you would go out and find God and decide if He were worth having faith in? We both know you did not:
Romans 3:10-12 King James Version (KJV)
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Now, I have asked this question a few times so will ask again: How is Abraham righteous if it states here (which is a quotation) there are none righteous...no, not one?
Agreed, it is, as I have said several times...a result. A result just as your anger is a result of your interaction with me. Before today you had no idea that you would lose your patience and get angry with me, right? Had I not come along that anger would never have resulted.
Right?
So too is faith, it is a result of God's intervention in the lives of men.
If I sneak up on you and dump a bucket of ice water on your head there would be effect to the cause. Perhaps fear at first, then perhaps anger. But that resulting response would only have occurred if there was first the cause.
God is the cause of faith, and He not only gave you that faith...
...He will finish it:
Hebrews 12:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
And this is the entire point, the very focus of this thread: Temporal Justification versus Eternal Redemption.
Abraham was not eternally redeemed when he believed God, had faith, and even produced works: he was eternally redeemed by the Cross of Christ.
That might be the problem, you are trying to understand literature written in ancient Greek...with English.
I am not wrong...you are making grace a rewqard for faith, and the credit goes to the Author and FInisher of our faith.
By the way, in the Greek, "finisher" means...completer.
I can't keep speaking to the same error. You are making man his own savior through faith. That is the result of indoctrination into traditional teachingsd of men. TIme to learn what the Bible actually teaches.
Can you not see that it states "of faith" and "by grace?" lol
You probably think Abraham is your father as well, don't you?
If a country is overrun by another country and another country comes in and repels the invading country with guns, tanks, and planes, they can say "We were saved by this country through tanks, guns and planes."
Who saved them?
God bless.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Lost souls certainly hate God, etc.
And supposed Saved souls have murdered those who comply to The Spirit of God in their understanding of Bible Words being difined, by God.
That's hate.
If someone adopts that Principal they come up with whatever.
Just a plain statement.
No insult.
Let it fall where it may.
People brag about their astounding hatred of God and Demand they change His Word to theirs, without one second of even considering that He Wrote it.
They don't care at all.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
I know you won't believe this, but:
Romans 2:12 "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law:
and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;"
Romans 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
*The impossibility of any man's gaining the approbation of God by works of his own appears plainly in the case of the rich young ruler who came to Christ.
Judged by human standards, he was a model of virtue and religious attainments.
Yet, like all others who trust in self-efforts, he was ignorant of the spiritualityand strictness of God's law;
when Christ put him to the test his fair expectations were blown to the winds and "he went away sorrowful" ( Matthew 19:22).*
Romans 5:12. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
*CHAPTER - INTRODUCTION
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
"There is none righteous except righteous ones" is a brand spanking news flash hot off the press to me.
When did you first make that up?
Never mind.
The talk about bright ideas of what word gets someone to Heaven is irrelevant, unless a soul is first Brought to the Position of having some need for Salvation.
Hi Darrel C, your avalanche of verbiage does not advance your view.
1) Faith (live faith) (faithful faith) (faith from which faithfulness flows) is not works.
To deny Romans 4 is to demolish any credibility for your assertion.
2) To deny the OT Saints were made perfect after Christ died is to demolish any credibility for your assertion.
3) In one case you said to be made perfect does not mean to be made flawless, yet in another place you say to be made perfect means your sins have been taken away.
4) By the works of the Law no flesh was justified. Your construct of temporal justification by works and eternal justification by faith and works is unsound in my opinion.
1) Faith (live faith) (faithful faith) (faith from which faithfulness flows) is not works.
To deny Romans 4 is to demolish any credibility for your assertion.
2) To deny the OT Saints were made perfect after Christ died is to demolish any credibility for your assertion.
3) In one case you said to be made perfect does not mean to be made flawless, yet in another place you say to be made perfect means your sins have been taken away.
4) By the works of the Law no flesh was justified. Your construct of temporal justification by works and eternal justification by faith and works is unsound in my opinion.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
I don't know how many Gospels you think there are, but
Jesus is The Savior.
Jesus is The Savior.
Salvation and Redemption by Christ is the great blessing held forth and enjoyed under The Old and New Testament.
Jesus is The Savior.
Justification by the Righteousness of Christ, which the Old Testament saints had Saving knowledge of, and faith in, as well as the New Testament saints, #Isa 45:24,25 Ro 3:21-23.
Jesus is The Savior.
Forgiveness of sin through faith in Christ, all the prophets bore witness to; and the saints of The Old Testament, as now, in the New Testament have a comfortable an application of it, #Ps 32:1,5 Isa 43:25 Mic 7:18 Ac 10:43.
Jesus is The Savior.
Regeneration, Spiritual circumcision, and Sanctification were what men were made partakers of under the first administration of the covenant Old Testament, as under the second administration of the covenant, #De 30:6 Php 3:3.
Jesus is The Savior.
Eternal life through Jesus Christ was made known in the writings of the Old Testament, as well as in those of the NewTestament and was believed, looked for, and expected by the saints of the former, as of the latter dispensation, #Joh 5:39 Heb 11:10,16 Job 19:26,27.
Jesus is The Savior.
In a word, under The Old and New Testament, they and we eat the same spiritual meat, and drink the same spiritual drink, for they drank of that Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ, #1Co 10:3,4.
adapted from: His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 4, Chapter 1
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And, apart from insinuating that I am lost, what ha that to do with the the topic?
What has that to do with the simple questions asked of you?
?
It's actually evasion, obviously you cannot address the issues and must resort to subtle insults. What spirit is that of?
Would you mind naming one person who has?
Subtle insult. Nothing more.
Well, this is the kind of thing that usually falls.
Please name one person who has done this, and why it is relevant to anything I have said.
God bless.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
There is no 'insinuating' you are lost.
I can't know that kind of thing.
It's against the board's rules, too.
Usually, people that are Saved have a Testimony that includes The Holy Spirit Spiritually Enabling their awareness of having been lost, prior to Gaining Salvation and hence a Spiritually Sound understanding of The Salvation Experience.
And/ or, they have a Spiritually Teachable Spirit.
I can't know that kind of thing.
It's against the board's rules, too.
Usually, people that are Saved have a Testimony that includes The Holy Spirit Spiritually Enabling their awareness of having been lost, prior to Gaining Salvation and hence a Spiritually Sound understanding of The Salvation Experience.
And/ or, they have a Spiritually Teachable Spirit.
I won't die, Alan, I am a born again believer who shall never perish.
The better question is when did I become alive.
And another question is why not actually try to understand that no man had eternal life prior to Pentecost. Before rejecting the doctrine at least try to deny it with Scripture. You make these subtle insults yet you are the one that has been shown to be teaching the exact opposite of what Scripture actually teaches:
John 14:15-23 King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
If you care to make a case for the indwelling of God on an eternal basis prior to this...you are going to have to do better than the birth of Isaac. Your teaching is the exact opposite of what Scripture teaches.
Here is another teaching that is in contradiction with the Word of God:
So which part of the statement is untrue? That only the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is salvific?
Acts 11:13-18 King James Version (KJV)
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
I gave you some points before on this, but suffice it to say that here we see that Peter defines the Holy Ghost falling on them as the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. And it is the Angel that defines the Baptism with the Holy Ghost as how one is saved.
Perhaps it is the second part of the statement you have a problem with, that Christ is the Baptizer, not men:
Matthew 3:11-12 King James Version (KJV)
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
So what is the baptism you think Scripture teaches as salvific? Why the false insinuation that I believe water baptism "saves souls..."
...and why, when you are corrected...do you ignore that and continue to insult with false accusation...
Again, what spirit is that of?
So it is a little odd that you would teach the direct opposite of what Scripture states and continue to make false statements as to what I have said.
Now, I know the answer you were expecting was "I will die due to sin," which in a physical sense is true, howeve, one point you fail to understand, as do many, is that it is not until Pentecost, when men began to be baptized with the Holy Ghost...that men received eternal life on this earth. Adma's provision for everlasting life was the Tree of Life, and because he was thrust out of the Garden he, and all his descendants...die physically. But nowhere does Scripture ascribe eternal life to men on this earth and not only does much of the New Testament testify that eternal life is through Christ, but it is seen in one of the verses people quote all the time:
John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Ask yourself, "If they had it prior to the Cross, Resurrection, and the sending of the Spirit...by what means did they receive it?"
God bless.
You said...
...which is just one of many insinuations you hae presented. There is no way you can make these relevant to what I actually said, so let's be honest, okay?
Another misconception: it is usually fairly easy to identify someone who is lost.
Yup.
So what do we make of someone who teaches the exact opposite of what Scripture teaches? That they are lost? No, because salvation is not something one can attain to...it is the gift of God, given by garce and mercy.
There are simply many people who are so indoctrinated to traditional teachings of men that they refuse to consider that what they believe might be in error. One primary reason is because of their pride. Another is that they fail to see that God withholds knowledge from men, this is simply a consistent pattern, exampled in the fact that the Gospel of Christ was a Mystery until Pentecost, and it is not until the Spirit is sent that He begins to reveal the GOspel to men:
Ephesians 3:3-5 King James Version (KJV)
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
1 Peter 1:12 New International Version (NIV)
12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
Not so. Many who are actually born again believers are babes. Some stay babes their entire lives.
God bless.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
"Usually, people that are Saved have a Testimony that includes The Holy Spirit Spiritually Enabling their awareness of having been lost,..."
I think I forgot what you change around about The Fall of Adam.
Is it like, "In the Day you eat thereof you shall surely die, but not physically, or Spiritually"?
You say, "In some other Day in the future Adam was to die, physically, but on the Day Adam ate thereof, Adam did not surely die, in any way".
Is that what you are saying, here? :
I think I forgot what you change around about The Fall of Adam.
Is it like, "In the Day you eat thereof you shall surely die, but not physically, or Spiritually"?
You say, "In some other Day in the future Adam was to die, physically, but on the Day Adam ate thereof, Adam did not surely die, in any way".
Is that what you are saying, here? :
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Well, let's see what I believe and what I don't, instead of continuing to make assumptions.
Why would you think I wouldn't believe this? Not only do I believe it but I would suggest you back up in the thread and see how it is relevant to the OP.
Let's go on to the part already posted int his thread:
Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
The point is this: God reveals His will to men in three primary ways, Creation (Romans 1:19-20), by internal witness, as we see here in regards to the Gentiles, and by direct Revelation, as he will go on to show the Jews received when they received the Word of God (and had an advantage).
Now here is another point I have tried to make in this thread: here we see that "...the doers of the Law shall be Justified." That is an inarguable fact stated by Paul the Apostle, an inspired Writer of Scripture. It does not contradict his statements that "...no flesh shall be justified by the Law,,," because they are two differing contexts. Here we see Temporal Justification, just as we see in Romans 4 and James 2, as well as in the case of the Publican sinner.
The difference between they and we is this: our judgment has already taken place at the Cross in Christ, theirs was retroactive.
It is a temporal application, not an eternal. The Rich Young Ruler is part of the Age of Law, and whether you like it or not, under the Law, and prior to the Law men were judged according to their obedience to God's revealed will. That is the point of this:
Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
But what does the Lord state?
Matthew 19:18-21 King James Version (KJV)
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
And the fact is this: no man was made perfect/complete (in regards to remission of sins) that they might gain eternal life yet:
Hebrews 11:39-40 King James Version (KJV)
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Only the very Death of Christ could do that, that men might receive Eternal Redemption:
Hebrews 10:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Exactly, human standards, in a temporal context.
And Abraham was ignorant, as all Old Testament Saints were...of the Gospel, because it was yet Mystery. Here is the Gospel Abraham received:
Galatians 3:6-8 King James Version (KJV)
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
We can understand this as the Gospel of Christ but Abraham did not. Just as Adam and Eve did not understand that the Seed would crush the Serpent's head.
Continued...]