Do we worship the same God?

[1689Dave]

Luk 7:44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
Luk 7:45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
Luk 7:46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
Luk 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
Luk 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
Luk 7:49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

This passage proves we are saved by our own faith. You simply don't know what you are talking about.
MB

Faith/faithfulness is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.


“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” Galatians 5:22 (KJV 1900)

“For it has been granted to you not only to believe in Christ but also to suffer for him,” (Philippians 1:29)


“And when he wanted to go across to Achaia, the brethren encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him; and when he had arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace,” Acts 18:27 (NASB95)


Our faith is a work of God


“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:29 (KJV 1900)

 

[MB]

Faith/faithfulness is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.


“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” Galatians 5:22 (KJV 1900)

“For it has been granted to you not only to believe in Christ but also to suffer for him,” (Philippians 1:29)


“And when he wanted to go across to Achaia, the brethren encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him; and when he had arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace,” Acts 18:27 (NASB95)

Not true Dave this is what Acts 18:27 actually says.
Luk 18:27 But he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
ASV.

Our faith is a work of God

Our faith is doing the works of God.

“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:29 (KJV 1900)

This is John telling men how to do the work of God.
Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
MB

 

[1689Dave]

Not true Dave this is what Acts 18:27 actually says.
Luk 18:27 But he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
ASV.

Our faith is doing the works of God.

This is John telling men how to do the work of God.

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
MB

“And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:” Acts 18:27 (KJV 1900)

Work of God?

“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:29 (KJV 1900)

“They said therefore unto him, ‘What may we do that we may work the works of God?’ Jesus answered and said to them, ‘This is the work of God, that ye may believe in him whom He did send.’” John 6:28–29 (YLT)


Work OF


“And Judas begat Phares and Zara OF Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;” Matthew 1:3 (KJV 1900)

“And thou Beth-lehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for OUT OF thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.” Matthew 2:6 (KJV 1900)

= Faith is a work of God performed in the elect.

 

[Dave G]

None of those scriptures say or even hint at forced Salvation.

Let's look at Ephesians 2:1-10, for example:

" And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 and hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
7 that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:1-10 )


Verse 1 addresses the believers, who were dead in trespasses and sins. What exactly is it to be "dead" in trespasses and sins? See Ephesians 4:17-19.
Verse 2 tells them that they were in those sins in time past ( before they heard the Gospel ) and walked according to the course of this world and its ways, according to the prince of the power of the air ( that's Lucifer, the god of this world ), who is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience.
Verse 3 says that the believers at Ephesus had their "conversation" ( that's Late Middle English for "manner of life" ) among them ( the children of disobedience ) in time past in the lusts of their flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others were.
In verse 4 we see that God, who is rich in mercy and for His great love wherewith He loved...who? The "us" is the believers at Ephesus, including Paul, who is writing the letter.
Verse 5 continues with God, who loved the believers at Ephesus, even when they were dead in trespasses and sins, quickened ( made alive ) them together with Christ, and reminds them that it is by grace they are saved.

Based on just what's been developed so far, what do you think has transpired while the believers at Ephesus were dead in their trespasses and sins?
They were "quickened" together with Christ.

Would you say that all this was done with their permission, or without it?

Was this "forced upon them", or did they have a choice in being "quickened together with Christ" while He was on the cross for them ( Colossians 2:13-14 )?
Since they were dead in trespasses and sins, then they had no conscious awareness of what God was doing for them, as their "quickening" ( being made alive towards God ) was performed at the same time He made Christ alive from the dead.

In other words, before they had heard the Gospel.
Positionally, God made His elect alive "in Christ".

Verse 6 states that the believers at Ephesus were raised up together with Christ, and made to sit with Him..."in Christ".
Again, it's "positional".
What He did for the believer, He did all at one time, "in Christ". See Ephesians 1:4-5, for example.

Verse 7 states that the reason He did all this, was, " that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."
Following the pronouns, who are the "us", the "we", and the "ye" referring to...believers, or unbelievers?

I won't go over verses 8-9 in-depth, since almost every professing believer seems to know what they say.
Some say that salvation is the gift, while others say that salvation by grace through faith is the gift.
I say it's faith, but I could be persuaded that the whole thing is, including faith.

Verse 10 states that "we" ( the believers at Ephesus and including Paul, who is writing to them ) are His workmanship, created "in Christ Jesus" ( positionally ) unto ( up to or simply to ) good works...which God has before ordained ( appointed ) that the believer should walk ( perform over and over ) in them.


So, with all this said, were God's actions in this passage done with or without notifying the believers at Ephesus, and giving them a choice in the matter before He took action on their behalf?
If done without their knowledge, then it was "forced upon them", wasn't it?
Done without their knowledge, and without their having a chance to refuse it, or have a say in it.

I don't know about you, but I can't find anything I'd like to have forced upon me more, than eternal life... which is to know God the Father and His Son ( John 17:3 ).

 

[Dave G]

Your reading into scripture again What you claim about these verses is false.

Based on the above, am I reading into, or out of the passage?
Since I gave you my understanding of the passage verse by verse, I say that I'm reading it "out of" the passage.

You don't agree with my line-by-line exposition of it?

I'm not sure how it could be any clearer...I simply took the words as they are right off the page and paraphrased them, for the most part, sticking as closely as I could to the orignals.

You have completely failed to prove man is saved force ably.

Respectfully, not from where I'm standing, I haven't.

You present verses from the old testament and new yet not one case of forced Salvation.

Reading what's been revealed in the New Testament back into the Old...

Do you think Noah cooperated with God when he was found in favor with Him, or was he chosen to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ) because he was foreknown, predestinated, called and justified ( Romans 8:29-30 )?
Do you think Abraham's belief is what saved him, when the Bible declares that belief is because one is "of" Christ's sheep ( John 10:26 ), because one is ordained to eternal life ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ), and because it was given to someone to believe ( Philippians 1:29 )?

Was David a man after God's own heart ( 1 Samuel 13:14, Acts of the Apostles 13:22 ) when he confessed Psalms 65:4, which says that a man is blessed because God chooses him and causes him to approach Him?

You must be thinking I won't check them out.

Quite the contrary.
I wouldn't post them unless I thought you actually would check me on it.

I'm sorry that you don't seem to believe what they state.

What you think they say is just not there your claim is false.

Again, it's a matter of perspective.
I think they say what they say at face value.

What is it you think they say?

Let's take Acts of the Apostles 13:48, for example.
I say that it states that those who were ordained ( appointed ) to eternal life, believed...and no one else.

What is it that you think the verse states, other than, "...as many as were ordained to eternal life believed"?

 

[MB]

There is no message

 

[MB]

Based on the above, am I reading into, or out of the passage?
Since I gave you my understanding of the passage verse by verse, I say that I'm reading it "out of" the passage.

You don't agree with my line-by-line exposition of it?

I'm not sure how it could be any clearer...I simply took the words as they are right off the page and paraphrased them, for the most part, sticking as closely as I could to the orignals.

Respectfully, not from where I'm standing, I haven't.

Reading what's been revealed in the New Testament back into the Old...

Do you think Noah cooperated with God when he was found in favor with Him, or was he chosen to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 )?
Do you think Abraham's belief is what saved him, when the Bible declares that belief is because one is "of" Christ's sheep ( John 10:26 ), because one is ordained to eternal life ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ), and because it was given to someone to believe ( Philippians 1:29 )?

Was David a man after God's own heart ( 1 Samuel 13:14, Acts of the Apostles 13:22 ) when he confessed Psalms 65:4, which says that a man is blessed because God chooses him and causes him to approach Him?

Quite the contrary.
I wouldn't post them unless I thought you actually would check me on it.

I'm sorry that you don't seem to believe what they state.

Again, it's a matter of perspective.
I think they say what they say at face value.

What is it you think they say?

Let's take Acts of the Apostles 13:48, for example.
I say that it states that those who were ordained ( appointed ) to eternal life, believed...and no one else.

What is it that you think the verse states, other than, "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed"?

You are not changing my mind. Even what you have posted here does not say we worship the same God. Nor does it say Salvation is forced. Not one verse says God forces man to believe. You are posting things that prove my argument No where in scripture does it ever say what you think it does.. You go ahead and believe in nonsense that's up to you. From now on I will ignore your comments. I will not answer to you.
MB

 

[Dave G]

You are not changing my mind.

Actually, I didn't think it would.

But there are others who read these forums, and most of them don't post replies.
It is to them that I am addressing my statements, for the most part... even though I had hoped to turn your eyes to the Scriptures and at least explain what they say, as I see them stating.

Even what you have posted here does not say we worship the same God.

Unfortunately, my original post in this thread basically stated something similar, but I was motivated to retract it.

Nor does it say Salvation is forced.

Nowhere in God's word is the phrase, "salvation is forced".

But I do believe that the decision to save someone was made by God, without their knowledge of it.
I also believe that it is a wonderful gift, dropped right in a person's lap when they're not expecting it ( Romans 10:20 ).
Without their permission.

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Not one verse says God forces man to believe.

Again, it's a matter of perspective, sir.

I agree that God does not force a person to believe.
His children naturally believe, when they "hear" His words ( Matthew 11:15 and others ).
After opening their heart ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).

They have "ears to hear" and "eyes to see", because He gave them to them ( Matthew 13:11 ).

You are posting things that prove my argument No where in scripture does it ever say what you think it does.. You go ahead and believe in nonsense that's up to you. From now on I will ignore your comments. I will not answer to you.

Then I bid you a good evening and farewell.

May the Lord bless you in the knowledge of Him and His precious Son, and direct your eyes and ears to Him and His grace.

 

[Reformed]

But there are others who read these forums, and most of them don't post replies.
It is to them that I am addressing my statements

Bingo! That is EXACTLY the reason I post here. There are plenty of lurkers on this board. We have no idea how what is posted on this board will be received by them.

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't believe God has to limit Him self. There are some things He will not do. He will not sin. He will not lie. He will not be a part any sin Or cause sin. God is righteous. He is Loving, In fact He is Love.
MB

God is not limitimng Himself, its just that there are things He cannot due due to Him being God!

 

[MB]

God is not limitimng Himself, its just that there are things He cannot due due to Him being God!

There is nothing God cannot do. There is only things He will not do. There is a huge difference between cannot and does not. All thing are possible with God.
MB

 

[utilyan]

"... never besieged an error, which he did not force from its strong holds;..."

John Gill: A Complete Body of Doctrinal and Practical Divinity (1769)

MB, your 'god' does not exist, except in the imagination of an individual reasoning with a mind affected by God's Bible Doctrine of Total Depravity.

'Calvinism' may Teach a lot about The Bible, I don't know. I go with The Bible and know The Bible and an understanding of it didn't begin 1600 years after it was Written.

I do know 'DIVINELY SELF-ENDOWMENT' of 'being god' without needing God, wouldn't matter what label is put on it.

That's what 'anti-Calvin' gods think they are boasting about.

It's deceived, false teaching.

If Satan had a choice of God's behavior, Calvinist God perfectly serves his interest, having unconditional hatred for others is the devil's bread and butter. Having Jesus with unconditional hatred, That is making Jesus kiss the devil's feet in worship.

Its what the devil wanted to prove in the first place, power, hatred and fear is greater than any love.

When he challenged God that the only reason Job loved God was he was manipulated so, to say not only that, but now God must directly intervene to modify your soul would prove Satan complete victor.

The first thing Fallen Adam preaches is a form of Calvinism:

Genesis 3

11And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” 12The man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate.”

Passing the buck blaming God for his sin accusing him of his conditions.

I challenge for anyone to pick out anyone, or anything that would be a worst example of character for God.

I bet you can't, that is the worst portrayal of God's character ever. It is insulting to God's true holiness.

 

[Yeshua1]

There is nothing God cannot do. There is only things He will not do. There is a huge difference between cannot and does not. All thing are possible with God.
MB

He cannot do some things, due to Him being God!

 

[MB]

He cannot do some things, due to Him being God!

Sorry you feel that way but, scripture is clear. All things are possible with God. It's what being an all mighty God is about.
MB

 

[Alan Gross]

This is exactly what I believe Calvinist should do. Repent and believe in the Gospel
MB

"Anti-Calvinists Must REPENT, if they never have, of the state of their Calvinist soul and Believe The Gospel."

All Anti-Calvinists have a sin nature Calvin articulated, which Anti-Calvinists oppose.

Repentance Toward God Must Take Place, by God Granting that soul, which an utterly sinful, evil, God-Hating nature Calvin depicted.

The confession of a soul that has never been Granted Repentance Toward God, that is a Calvinistic discribed soul, as all souls are, which are all a Spiritually dead souls, that they have Never Been Granted Repentance is not a slight against me.

However, yes the false teaching of 'belief', 'faith', 'power', the image of God', 'a spark of Divinity', the unbeliever having a 'part in their Salvation', etc., without Having been Granted Genuine God-Given Repentance of the sin committed by their Calvinistic dead soul is a Testimony of a lost soul.

It is an Eternally Fatal slight against The God of Heaven to not PROMOTE that the "Anti-Calvinists Must REPENT of the state of their Calvinist soul and Believe The Gospel, if their Testimony is that they 'have the power to' believe', etc.

Which is exactly what I am going to do, with my wallet, with my sites on The Bible.

This statement and concept of those who deny God and claim they have 'belief', 'faith', 'power', 'the image of God', 'a spark of Divinity', that the unbeliever has a 'part in their Salvation', etc., without Having been Granted Genuine God-Given Repentance of the sin committed by their Calvinistic dead soul is a Testimony of a lost soul and their perpetual boast, and CONFESSION.

They do this World wide, every day, without me.

This statement and CONCEPT that these, with this Confession of being lost, as having A CALVINISTIC SOUL, IS BRILLIANT, and should be a Featured posting, with these comments.

ABSOLUTELY SPEAKING:

"ANTI-CALVINISTS" ABSOLUTELY
Must BE GRANTED REPENTANCE
of the ABSOLUTE state
of their ABSOLUTELY Calvinist soul
and Believe The GOSPEL, or they will Absolutely spend Eternity in Hell,
as a Calvinist.

This is The Work of God

... AND utterly beautiful.

What Cord God Struck.

This is all a Part of Championing The Cause of Christ,
as perspicatious.

Perspicuity is a Bible Characteristic.

All Anti-Calvinists have a Calvinist soul.

They simply Blaspheme God, and profess they don't need God, whether they are Saved, or not.

I would like to suggest Blaspheme be censored, to get past this FAKE DEBATE and tell The World to REPENT and Believe The Gospel, or shut up.

 

[Iconoclast]

Sorry you feel that way but, scripture is clear. All things are possible with God. It's what being an all mighty God is about.
MB

God says HE CANNOT LIE.
Do you believe He can lie?

 

[David Kent]

Do you support violent self defense to the point of killing enemies you are supposed to love?

Do you?

 

[Dave G]

If Satan had a choice of God's behavior, Calvinist God perfectly serves his interest, having unconditional hatred for others is the devil's bread and butter.

The way I see it, Satan loves to fill people's heads with a god that loves everyone, but is unable or unwilling to cross the line of their "free will".
He has people thinking that God cannot save someone unless they cooperate with Him by "giving Him permission".

The Lord does not need "permission" from His creation to do anything ( Daniel 4:35 ).

Having Jesus with unconditional hatred, That is making Jesus kiss the devil's feet in worship.

God's hatred of sinners is not unconditional...we actually did something that He hates:

We sinned, sin, and rebelliously sin each and every minute.
He hates the worker of iniquity ( Psalms 5:5 ).
That is why the wrath of God abides on us, as a race.

The Lord Jesus will have Satan in Hell bow to Him in worship ( Philippians 2:10-11 ), as well as everyone else.

Its what the devil wanted to prove in the first place, power, hatred and fear is greater than any love.

Love for God is much greater than fear:

" And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us." ( 1 John 4:16-19 ).

Satan is a liar, and the father of it.

Passing the buck blaming God for his sin accusing him of his conditions.

Exactly.

Except believers don't do that.

They take direct responsibility for their sins, acknowledging that God, who chooses and causes a person to approach Him ( Psalms 65:4 ), is just and righteous in all His perfect judgments.

I challenge for anyone to pick out anyone, or anything that would be a worst example of character for God.

I bet you can't, that is the worst portrayal of God's character ever. It is insulting to God's true holiness.

His character is developed by His word...all of it.

He hates sinners ( Psalms 5:5, Psalms 11:5 ).
Sinners hate Him ( Romans 1:30, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 ).

Only Christ's sheep love Him ( 1 John 4:19 ).

He chooses to save sinners by His grace.
The only way to do it, is to do it against our stiff-necked and rebellious will.

 

[utilyan]

The sin committed in this statement Provokes God's Wrath.

REPENT and Believe The Gospel.







The sin committed in these statements Provoke God's Wrath.

REPENT and Believe The Gospel.



The sin committed in this statement Provokes God's Wrath.

REPENT and Believe The Gospel.





The sin committed in this statement Provokes God's Wrath.

REPENT and Believe The Gospel.





The sin committed in these statements Provoke God's Wrath.

REPENT and Believe The Gospel.



The sin committed in this statement Provokes God's Wrath.

REPENT and Believe The Gospel.



The sin committed in this statement Provokes God's Wrath.

REPENT and Believe The Gospel.

Calvinist God looks pretty upset.

 

[Dave G]

Calvinist God looks pretty upset.

That picture of Thanos is not the Lord.

That's a fairy tale dreamed up in the corrupt minds of men...
Men who hate Him and refuse to repent of their sins, even though we know that they lead to death ( Romans 1:32 ).

It is definitely not based on anything even remotely close to the word of God.