The ones who are truly saved are brothers.
[ November 25, 2005, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Phillip ]
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Calvinism/Arminianism Forum - Finally Imploded?
- Thread starter JohnB
- Start date
[ November 25, 2005, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Phillip ]
No, what I said was In any debate, one should say about his opponent only what his opponent would say about himself.</font>[/QUOTE]Larry, you just said exactly the same thing I said.
Mark Osgatharp </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry, I misread your post. It appeared that you were disagreeing with me. Plus, it has been a long day ...
I misread your reply to Kiffen. Sorry about that. Let me try again.
It's one thing for an Apostle writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to correct the doctrine of those to whom he is a minister but who have strayed from a correct understanding of the gospel. It's a completely different thing for one to assert that others, whom one does not even know and who do not actually believe that with which they are charged, are heretics.
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
The Campbellites (the falsely so called "Church of Christ") believe that a man is saved by his good works, beginning with baptism. It is often charged that they believe in baptismal regeneration. Actually, they don't believe in regeneration at all.
There may be some members of the Campbellite churches who are saved because they have trusted in Christ. But if they really believe what the Campbellite churches teach, they are lost.
Mark Osgatharp
[ November 25, 2005, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: Phillip ]
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
Brother Dallas,
The Campbellites do not believe that the Holy Spirit regenerates a man's soul. They don't believe there is a new spiritual creation.
They don't believe the Holy Spirit exerts any direct influence on the heart. To them, the Spirit's influence is totally through the written word and salvation is simply a matter of a man deciding to start obeying God.
Baptism, in Campbellite doctrine, is simply an act of obedience on the performance of which God forgives your past sins.
By contrast, Roman Catholics actually believe in baptismal regeneration. To the Catholics, baptism works a sort of magic wherein the soul is re-created.
Mark Osgatharp
Bruce Reeves
New Member
[snipped]
[ November 25, 2005, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]
[ November 25, 2005, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]
Txspurgeon
New Member
That is a great description Mark. I praise God that he sovereignly saved me, and replaced my heart of stone with a heart of flesh. Only then could I see the light and I finally realized the heresey I was raised in. The COC needs to be dealt with and The hereseys they uphold are UN-Christian! The Glory of Salvation goes to God, not them. Pelagians are heretics. They need to be called out on it. For me, It is hard to believe that anyone who would support such doctrine could be Christian at all. It seems like a bunch of lost people trying to figure out what is spiritually discerned. But I don't know their hearts.
As far as the doctrines of Grace are concerned, I believe many who say they are "anti" Calvinist, simply don't understand it, and don't realize how inclusive it is or how non contradictory it is. People need to stop pulling John 3:16 out of context and realize that John 6:44 is there too, so is Romans 9, Ephesians 1 etc. etc. And they all go hand in hand.
We are commanded to preach the gospel to the world. To EVERYONE. BUT...there will be those who reject it (those whom the Father has NOT drawn). Those who embrace it ARE the elect. The "elect" aren't some exclusive "few" Christians. All Christians, who are true believers, ARE the elect that the Father has drawn to Christ Jesus. Furthermore, Christ didn't die for everyone ...or the non-elect. If he did die for everyone, then they could not go to hell. He died for those whom the Father has given Him. Christ death was the propitation for the sins of the believers. The non-believers (non-elect) will perish. The elect will not. Jesus' atonement was certanly sufficient to save all men, but it didn't. If it did, there would be no Hell because the Father would be fully satisfied in Christ's atonement. The Bible makes it clear that everyone will not be saved. That is the dreaded "Limited atonement" that many of you hate. God saves some because He has mercy, and damns others because he is Just. There is NO injustice.
I dont refer to it as Calvinism, It was around long before Calvin. I call it Pauline theology, or biblical Christianity. But for clarity, I will call it Calvinism. Today, in many Baptist circles, it is totally mis understood, and mis represented. Many churches focus more on church attendance and numbers rather than the depth of their theology and teaching. They complain that following up new converts is difficult... That is because they were either false converts, or they were looking for a theology that isn't shallow. Probably the former. They were most likely false converts because they were told they could pray a prayer and be saved. The Church NEEDS TO STOP LOWERING THE BAR to "be" a true believer, in order to be "inclusive" for the lost.Jesus isn't a flu shot or a get out of Hell free card. The gospel is MUCH deeper than that, and MUCH more magnificent. The free will Idea, that you can woo people to Christ without prior regeneration of the Holy Spirit, drives the business of "church" and brings in alot of money. Pragmatism, worldliness, and shallow theology that is a thousand miles wide, and a 1/2 inch deep has creeped in as a result. Man-centeredness is the order of the day. If you have to "entertain" people, so they dont 'get bored' then, they obviosly are lost, and arent seeking God's Word, they are seeking entertainment and games or an "environment" to please themselves. That is the result of a man centered gospel! Oh how SAD a day when Jesus Christ the Lord is demoted that low.
Our duty as Christians, is to proclaim the gospel IN IT'S FULLNESS, and the Holy Spirit will do the rest. All that the Father gives Me, Will come to me, and those who come to me I will NEVER cast out. (John 6:37).
Txspurgeon
But there is so much that you said I would disagree with. For example:
Jesus said he would draw all men to himself.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
So you see, it is not that I do not understand your position, I do. I simply believe your position is false and unscriptural.
You are new here, this debate has been going on for years. I have had Calvinists tell me many times I do not understand their position. Well, all I can say is that I have had it explained to me by Calvinists many times, and have quoted famous Calvinist writers, but yet they still accuse me of not understanding it. That is not the case, I get it, I just disagree with it.
Another example:
I understand you here, and even understand your thought process. You cannot conceive that Jesus could die for someone, and that person not be saved. Trouble is, the scriptures show men who are lost that Jesus did die for.
2 Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
These men are lost, they are teaching "damnable heresies", yet it says Jesus "bought them". That is, he shed his blood to pay for their sins.
So, I completely understand your point of view, I simply believe your doctrine is error and not scriptural.
But there is so much that you said I would disagree with. For example:
Jesus said he would draw all men to himself.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
So you see, it is not that I do not understand your position, I do. I simply believe your position is false and unscriptural.
You are new here, this debate has been going on for years. I have had Calvinists tell me many times I do not understand their position. Well, all I can say is that I have had it explained to me by Calvinists many times, and have quoted famous Calvinist writers, but yet they still accuse me of not understanding it. That is not the case, I get it, I just disagree with it.
Another example:
I understand you here, and even understand your thought process. You cannot conceive that Jesus could die for someone, and that person not be saved. Trouble is, the scriptures show men who are lost that Jesus did die for.
2 Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
These men are lost, they are teaching "damnable heresies", yet it says Jesus "bought them". That is, he shed his blood to pay for their sins.
So, I completely understand your point of view, I simply believe your doctrine is error and not scriptural.
Txspurgeon
New Member
You can use "cut and paste" theology all you want, but you cannot deny the doctrine of election. It is throughout the new testament. There are an "elect" people.There are a "chosen" people. Many times when the bible speaks of "all men" it means all types of men or kinds of men, Jew, Greek, Gentile, Women, Etc. Etc...It doesn't always translate to "every single person."
I believe in election, but I believe the Calvinistic doctrine of Unconditional Election to be error.
I believe God elected those whom he saw in his foreknowledge would have faith.
James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
Here God says he has chosen the poor of the world who are rich in faith. Is that unconditional?
It is not because they are poor that they are chosen, it is because of their faith.
Psa 14:6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
Look up the definition of trust in the OT. It's definition means to "flee for refuge to" or to "seek protection from" Trust is a relying, a depending, a casting of one's self upon another for refuge or help.
And you will see this theme throughout the scriptures, that the poor tend to trust in God, while the rich trust in their own riches. That is why it is very difficult for a rich man to be saved.
Mark 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
Being rich does not guarantee a person will be lost. Abraham was rich, as was Job and Solomon. And being poor does not guarantee a person will be saved.
No, faith is the condition upon which God chooses or elects men. The scriptures show that from the beginning Jesus knew who believed not, and who should betray him. He therefore also knew from the beginning who would believe in him. This is who he elects or chooses.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Whether you will accept it or not, John 6:64 is showing God's foreknowledge that from the beginning he knows who will believe and who will not. And we are elected according to this foreknowledge.
1 Pet 2:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
How are we sanctified by the Spirit? Through God's word.
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Remember that Jesus said ye must be born of the "water" and the Spirit? The water is the word of God. The word of God is truth, and you must believe the truth to be chosen.
2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
God chooses people because they have been sanctified by the Spirit (through the word of God), and because they believed the truth (the word of God).
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Is that was this passage really is saying. Let's put your interpretation in the verse...
"Hath not god chosen the poor of this world who are rich in faith and heirs of the Kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?" The problem with this is that "and heirs" doesn't make sense. What else besides "heirs" is being spoken of here. It says that he has chosen the poor to be heirs, what was the other thing? There's an "and" there.
In either of our interpretations, we have two words to add to 2010 English to understand the passage. I prefer "to be" instead of "who are." Let's look at it from my point of view.
Hath not god chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the Kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?"
Chosen the poor to be 1)rich in faith and 2) heirs of the Kingdom.
The passage doesn't say(as you properly pointed out) that the choosing was done based on being poor. But it also wasn't based on being in faith, the choosing was to be in faith and heirs of the Kingdom.
Not one of the passages you quoted say that God conditions his election on faith. I'm glad you believe in election even if you believe it is conditioned on faith. It is much better than deny election as some try to do.
It doesn't say we are elected BASED on this foreknowledge. Let's suppose I'm right for a second, would Jesus still know form the beginning who would believe and who wouldn't believe? Yes, it was still be true.
What is this foreknowledge? You are making a large assumption that is is saying that it is based on faith.
No, they say you must believe the truth to be saved. It doesn't say you must believe to be chosen. That is never in Scripture.
We have been chosen to salvation. It doesn't say that sanctification was the basis nor belief was the basis of his choosing. Salvation(ultimate salvation) is through sanctification and belief.) Our election was done before the foundation of the word. Before we ever did anything. Our salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ. Faith is a prerequisite for salvation as clearly stated in Scripture. Faith is NEVER said to be a prerequisite for election.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Trust in Christ
Ephesians 1:
13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory
Romans 11:
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Praise be to God
23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
John 15:
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Hebrews 3:
Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[Psalm 95:7-11]
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[Psalm 95:7,8 ]
16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
Jude:
5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[Some early manuscripts Jesus ] delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
John 13:35
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
I can't put my faith in election for the above scriptures, but I can put my hope in trusting in Christ for my salvation for they are they elect chosen before the foundation of the world, for the scriptures tells us it is they who will not be disappointed. I believe in the elect but the elect that Paul was talking to about being chosen before the foundation of the world was people who already put their trust in Jesus. I will not put my hope in the words of man.
Psalm 22:5
They cried to you and were saved; in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.
Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
Romans 4:5
However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
Ephesians 1:
13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory
Romans 11:
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Praise be to God
23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
John 15:
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Hebrews 3:
Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[Psalm 95:7-11]
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[Psalm 95:7,8 ]
16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
Jude:
5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[Some early manuscripts Jesus ] delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
John 13:35
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
I can't put my faith in election for the above scriptures, but I can put my hope in trusting in Christ for my salvation for they are they elect chosen before the foundation of the world, for the scriptures tells us it is they who will not be disappointed. I believe in the elect but the elect that Paul was talking to about being chosen before the foundation of the world was people who already put their trust in Jesus. I will not put my hope in the words of man.
Psalm 22:5
They cried to you and were saved; in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.
Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
Romans 4:5
However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
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Election doesn't save anyone. Our Faith is in Jesus Christ. Of course you don't know somebody is elect until they put their faith in Jesus Christ. That is why we should spread the gospel to everyone and leave the rest up to God.
James 2:5 does not say the poor are chosen "to be" rich in faith. You are wresting the scriptures to fit your doctrine. It says God has chosen the poor "rich in faith".
James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
Where are the words "to be" in this verse?
You are wresting the scriptures.
Matthew Henry, who was a Calvinist recognized that this verse was saying these poor were rich in faith.
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Did you even read my post winman? I know you didn't read all of it because I already spoke about this very thing. It also doesn't say "who are" in the verse. Go back and re-read my post.
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
I guess the debates haven't imploded...what started as "what happened to the forum" turned into a debate. :laugh:
It doesn't have to say "who are", it is naturally implied. The phrase "rich in faith" is a "modifier" or "participle" that adds detail to the noun to which it is attached, in this case "the poor".
It is like the phrase "full of grace and truth" in John 1:14
John 1: 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Ok, so you realize(as I had already stated) that either "who are" or "to be" is implied. Now, again go back to my post where I gave a defense of it being "to be" and how "who are" doesn't work with the sentence.
http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1559705&postcount=73