They symbolize the work of God through which the New Covenant is established.
The idea is mankind was "purchased" or redeemed from sin and death not by things like gold and silver but by the blood of Christ. God himself sacrificed to redeem man.
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Is it idolatry?
- Thread starter Walpole
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The idea is mankind was "purchased" or redeemed from sin and death not by things like gold and silver but by the blood of Christ. God himself sacrificed to redeem man.
Walpole
Well-Known Member
How exactly do bread and wine symbolize these things?
Can you give an example from anywhere in Scripture where bread is symbolic of a body?
1 Corinthians 11
27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
Maybe you can explain this verse. Maybe give detail of how someone can bring about their own damnation not discerning the lord's body.
I believe the Supper to be akin to baptism. I see it as a covenantal issue. We are members of His body. To affirm Christ while rejecting Him is to our own peril.
I am sure there are other views, but mine is centered in the "new covenant" and our participation in that covenant.
I believe the Supper to be akin to baptism. I see it as a covenantal issue. We are members of His body. To affirm Christ while rejecting Him is to our own peril.
I am sure there are other views, but mine is centered in the "new covenant" and our participation in that covenant.
Yes. Christ tells us He is the bread of life. And wine is often associated with life.
That said, as to why God chose these elements...that is His business. I am not qualified to question His commands.
Your post makes remember of the Pharisees with their evil strategy in how they might entangle JESUS in His talk, and the Pharisees sent out unto Him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men. Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto Him a penny. And JESUS said unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They said unto JESUS, Caesar's. Then JESUS said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Now, now, JESUS perceived their wickedness and called them of hypocrites, and the LORD knew their spirit, the spirit of Devil, so JESUS asked unto them, saying: Why do you tempt me?
Judging your original example by the Word of God, you must know that there is not any difference regards idols before God, be it a calf or even the false picture of JESUS, this is worst yet, and He always commanded to destroy them. By the way, all kind o idols are manufatured by demons, inspired by the spirit of their father, the own Devil, the old Serpent and Satan, who was CURSED by the Most High and Almighty God, do you understand?
In the other hand, your pastor, be him a priest, bishop or Pope, or a Minister of a denominational evangelical Church, who holds the CURSED image and deceived the followers with satanic astuteness, THIS ONE is also a demon.
Your satanic conjectures and devilish examples have nothing to do with the passover was celebrated by JESUS with His 12 apostles. And He said unto them: With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer, so He took bread, and gave thanks, and breake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in REMEMBRANCE OF ME.
Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the New Testament in my blood, which is shed for you, and He took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves and this do in REMEMBRANCE OF ME. For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
The two examples you invented and misrepresented, and posted astutenessly in this Christian site, were also inspired by the spirit of Devil. I know how the spirit of demons works in the midst of the Christian people through its astuteness.
You are lost.
Of course not.
"I am not qualified to question His commands."
Thats close to my reasoning to why I think bread he gives is actually his body.
If the intention of Jesus was that the bread was actually his body, what should he have said?
In other words, What would he have to say for him to convey what we believe is happening?
My answer to the OP:
YES ! I would object most-vigorously!
No one knows what Jesus REALLY looked like! I doubt He had long hair & paraded around in a nightgown, as He's often depicted. And He strictly forbade worshipping any image of anything! And, sorry, Sportzz Fanzz, that includes the CROSS!
YES ! I would object most-vigorously!
No one knows what Jesus REALLY looked like! I doubt He had long hair & paraded around in a nightgown, as He's often depicted. And He strictly forbade worshipping any image of anything! And, sorry, Sportzz Fanzz, that includes the CROSS!
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
I feel in need of clarification on this too. Help me understand.
Suppose a pastor or priest stood someone in front of the congregation and said, "This is a temple of the Holy Spirit, one whose body is a member of Christ. Pass her around and treat her with the utmost respect. You can even kiss her as though she is God himself." Should you object, or should you bow down and worship her as God? Similarly, as a Christian, should you go home and adoringly kiss the mirror?
15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. (1 Corinthians 6:15-20)
Suppose a pastor or priest stood someone in front of the congregation and said, "This is a temple of the Holy Spirit, one whose body is a member of Christ. Pass her around and treat her with the utmost respect. You can even kiss her as though she is God himself." Should you object, or should you bow down and worship her as God? Similarly, as a Christian, should you go home and adoringly kiss the mirror?
15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. (1 Corinthians 6:15-20)
I understand. I have several Catholic friends who believe the same.
The words would have been the same if the elements were/ became blood and flesh or if the were symbolic.
Later in Scripture we find that the "this" done in rememberence of Him was not taking the elements but sharing an actual meal.
It is interesting how people land on the topic.
Walpole
Well-Known Member
Great point! Christ tells us the bread of life is His actual flesh.
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever.” (John 6:51-58)
How does this relate to the Supper?
Walpole
Well-Known Member
Then why would you use Jesus as an example of something made by man to symbolize God?
I'm confused.
Walpole
Well-Known Member
I'm guessing by the tone of your post you don't have a successful record of leading the lost to the truth.
If you have an explanation as to why using bread and wine to symbolize God is not idolatry, feel free to offer it.
I didn't suggest Jesus was something made by man to symbolize God. I suggested that wine and bread were the man-made objects that symbolized God and were OK to use in the context of worship. I implied that wine and bread were an exception to the rule. (My writing could have been clearer.)
Here it is again:
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Walpole said:
Yes, well, Jesus is worthy to be worshiped. Apparently he is the exception to your observation.
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OK, I see your confusion. Hopefully, I've clarified my point. The wine and the bread are the symbols of God that are the exception to the rule.
Walpole
Well-Known Member
Thanks so much for clarifying.
Help me understand how on the one hand you believe using a picture / image (man-made objects) and claiming it represents / symbolizes God (see the OP) is idolatry, but using bread / wine (man-made objects) and claiming it represents / symbolizes God is not idolatry?
Why is one man-made object ok but the other is not?
Sorry to belabor the point, but I believe it is quite important.
"Later in Scripture ..."
Stop right there, Jon. I want to know between you and Jesus if he says this what does it mean. Let it be as if you read the scriptures up to this point on the gospel.
You haven't gotten to acts,Romans,the epistles, you haven't even gotten to the cross or resurection.
Do you think if someone at the table said this bread isn't actually your body Jesus would have given approval?
And their use of memory of me isn't american memory of me, the jewish makes the moment present. When Jews do the same thing for passover they are actually IN the Passover.. The catholic is AT the Last supper and AT the CROSS.
Like when I hear the words I took it inclusively to mean many things. When he says this is my body, this is who I am. Inclusive to this is the meaning of life, this is my church, this love is what I am, all those present is his body, and that it is all for you.
I can say ultimately anything experience in existence is a communication from God thus "symbolic". They even call it communion, as a covenant he says that is his blood poured out for many.
Is God capable of laying out spiritual mechanics of how things work?
Can God declare eating a particular fruit is what will kill you or is it just symbolic? Can I just declare everything God presents is a illusion that is symobolic to something else.
Because Christ commanded us to use the bread and the wine to remember him. God is TELLING US TO DO THIS.
Because in your hypothetical example it is a man suggesting we venerate an artist's rendering of Jesus. An image of Jesus that is likely inaccurate.
Walpole
Well-Known Member
You believe the "this" Jesus referred to is simply sharing a meal with someone? In other words, sharing a meal of bread and steak and potatoes with a glass of wine would be fulfilling Jesus' command at the Last Supper?
St. Paul clearly did not think so:
"Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in?" - 1 Cor 11:22
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