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Is it idolatry?

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Alofa Atu

Well-Known Member
Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Does it say that the tree is the curse, the symbol is the curse, or that hanging upon the tree is the curse upon the one so hung (which is not a Cross, but a Crucifix). I also see you didn't even address one single thing I gave in regards the Cross throughout scripture, and in the sanctuary.
 

Oseas3

Well-Known Member
Does it say that the tree is the curse, the symbol is the curse, or that hanging upon the tree is the curse upon the one so hung (which is not a Cross, but a Crucifix). I also see you didn't even address one single thing I gave in regards the Cross throughout scripture, and in the sanctuary.

The speech of the Lord JESUS unto them that are at His left hand is: Depart from me, ye CURSED, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his messengers.

The most important now is the fulfilment of the powerful Word of God. Revelation 21:v.8 - But the fearful, and
unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and IDOLATERS, and ALL LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with FIRE and brimstone: which is the second death.


Isaiah prophesied: Isaiah 2

8 The earth is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:

9 And the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself: therefore forgive them not.

10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty.

11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that Day. (Yeah, this Day has arrived, the Lord's Day)

12 For the Day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

16 ... and upon all pleasant pictures.

17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low:
and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day.

18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish.

19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His Majesty, when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

20 In that Day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;

21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the Glory of His Majesty, when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of ?
 

Walter

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Ah, the ex-Seventh-day Adventists, who misrepresent the position. I emailed her also. You want to know what she told me? She said I had to buy her book to continue dialogue with her, and she refused to address any material sent to her.

Speaking of books, maybe a good read for you would be:






Nic Samojluk
From Pro-life to Pro-choice: The Dramatic Shift in Seventh-day Adventist's Attitudes Towards Abortion

Moloch worship is the worst kind of idolatry and SDA's engage in it seven days a week.
 
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Alofa Atu

Well-Known Member
So, back to the OP:

iu


Should they kiss it? I wonder what the third guy from the left is thinking ...

iu


iu


iu


I know why all the incense ...

iu


Jer_10:5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

iu


iu
 

Walter

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Murder In Paradise by Nik Samojluk exposes more of your SDA Moloch worship and idolatry but you will ignore the slaughter by your Adventists abortion mills of thousands upon thousands of innocent babies. What stench in the Lord's nostrils SDA has become!
 

Adonia

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Zwingli was simply turning from the error of men to the truth of God's word. What was wrong with his position:

Ulrich Zwingle -

"... Zwingle observed that esti (is) is the proper word in the Greek language to express signifies, and he quoted several instances in which this word is employed in a figurative sense. ..." - The History of the Reformation of the Sixteenth Century, Volume 3, Book 11, Chapter 6, page 406

"... Zwingle was seriously engrossed by these thoughts, and when he closed his eyes at night, was still seeking for arguments with which to oppose his adversaries. The subjects that had so strongly occupied his mind during the day present themselves before him in a dream. He fancied that he was disputing with Am-Grutt, and that he could not reply to his principal objection. Suddenly a figure stood before him and said: “Why do you not quote the 11th verse of the 12th chapter of Exodus: Ye shall eat it (the lamb) in haste: it is the Lord’s passover?” Zwingle awoke, sprung out of bed, took up the Septuagint translation, and there found the same word esti (is), which all are agreed is synonymous with signifies in this passage.

Here then, in the institution of the paschal feast under the old covenant, is the very meaning that Zwingle defends. How can he avoid concluding that the two passages are parallel? ..."

"... Zwingle no longer hesitated, and at nearly the same time he gave to the world his Letter to Albert, and his Commentary on True and False Religion, dedicated to Francis I. In this last he said: “Since Christ, in the sixth chapter of St. John, ascribes to faith the power of imparting eternal life, and of uniting the believer to Him in the closest union, what need have we of more? Why should He afterwards have ascribed this virtue to His flesh, whilst He himself declares that His flesh profiteth nothing? The flesh of Christ, so far as it suffered death for us, is of incalculable utility, for it saves us from perdition; so far as it is eaten by us, it is of no use whatever.” ..." - The History of the Reformation of the Sixteenth Century, Volume 3, Book 11, Chapter 11, page 424

"... Zwingle replied that Scripture must be interpreted by Scripture, and reminded him of numerous passages where is has the force of signifies, and among others he quoted the following: - "The seed is the Word," "The field is the world," "I am the Vine," "The Rock was Christ." 8 The secretary objected that these passages were taken from parables and proved nothing. "No," it was replied, "the phrases occur after the parable has ended, and the figurative language been put aside." ..." - The History of Protestanism, Volume 1, Book 8, Chapter 15, page 470

"... The scene in which Zwingle had been so intensely occupied during the day, presented itself to him when asleep. He thought that he was again in the Council Chamber disputing with Am-Gruet. The secretary was urging his objection, and Zwingle was unable to repel it. Suddenly, a figure stood before him and said, "O, slow of heart to understand, why don't you reply to him by quoting Exodus 12:11

471

-'Ye shall eat it [the lamb] in haste: it is the Lord's Passover'? 10 Roused from sleep by the appearance of the figure, he leaped out of bed, turned up the passage in the Septuagint, and found there the same word ejsti> (is) used with regard to the institution of the Passover which is employed in reference to the institution of the Supper. All are agreed that the lamb was simply the symbol and memorial of the Passover: why should the bread be more in the Supper? The two are but one and the same ordinance under different forms. The following day Zwingle preached from the passage in Exodus, arguing that that exegesis must be at fault which finds two opposite meanings in the same; word, used, as it here is, in the same form of expression, and recording the institution of the same ordinance. If the lamb was simply a symbol in the Passover, the bread can be nothing more in the Supper; but if the bread in the Supper was Christ, the lamb in the Passover was Jehovah. So did Zwingle argue in his sermon, to the conviction of many of his hearers. ..." - The History of Protestanism, Volume 1, Book 8, Chapter 15, page 470-471

You can see more here
- Transubstantiation Unsubstantiated Substantially :P

So, it was all in error until Zwingli, until this one man came to tell us the "truth"? Talk about following men - you folks take the cake!
 

Adonia

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
It still depends. Ignorance and knowledge are in play:

Joh_3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Act_17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Mat_12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Mat_12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Luk_12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Being a part of the Trinity, the Holy Ghost is as much a part of the Holy Eucharist as Jesus is. The change from the elements to Christ cannot happen without the Holy Ghost. Your denigration of the Holy Eucharist is therefore a blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.
 

robycop3

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
HOW GOOFY CAN YOU GET ??????????????????

At Jesus. baptism, Jesus was, of course, physically present. The HOLY SPIRIT arrived in form of a dove. And A voice from heaven boomed, "This is My BELIVED SON...".

Clearly, Father, Son, & Holy Spirit were each manifest, physically separate from one another. These FACTS weren't placed in all the "gospels" just to fill space ! God WANTED them there to show the fact of the Holy Trinity.

And Jesus said "My Father is greater than I." Not even Jesus can be greater than Himself! Jesus also said He would send the Holy Spirit. The sender is always greater than the sendee. And Jesus also said He could forgive blasphemy against Himself, but not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Jesus' words prove He & the Holy Spirit are separate Personages, as well as His saying His Father was greater than Him, proving THEY are separate Personages as well.

But they are all Members of the one-and-only Godhead. Sound impossible ? "WITH GOD, ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE !"

Yes, Scripture plainly establishes the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, which is an English shortcut for speaking of Father, Son, & Holy Spirit collectively.
You do not read carefully what I wrote. I specifically stated, "commonly, not exceptionally defined". The false doctrine of the "trinity" (sic) is more than simply saying there is the "Father, Son & Holy Spirit". There is more to the false doctrine than that.

I already agreed that there are the Persons/Beings of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Yet, that is not the definition (sic) of the "trinity".

The details is where the issue lies, which I specifically addressed.

"Holy Trinity" is an English shortcut for speaking of the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit collectively.
 

robycop3

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
BTW, Adonia, I already addressed the "Jesus = Michael" thingie in a separate thread. Far as the Seven-Day-Adlibber cult goes, their Grand Imperial Dweebob Ellen 1 declared Jesus is Michael, so they don't question it. That, of course, is only one of many of their false doctrines.
 

Oseas3

Well-Known Member
The Eucharist is a worship celebrated by idolaters according to the doctrine of woman, the Great Whore, the Roman Catholic Church, and what they do is just a diabolical dissimulation of celebration made by the Lord JESUS did in memory of His death hanged on the cross the Devil was preparing for Him.

Every religious ceremony performed by the idolaters is a disguised imitation, a sorcerie, it is a celebration made by the spirit of the Devil. It has nothing to do with the Spirit of God the Father, nor of Jesus, nor of the Holy Spirit, but the spirit of Devil, the father of lie. The eucharist celebrated by demons is a source of disease, serious illness, death, and all sorts of misfortunes that happen in people's lives around the Earth.

Eucharist made by the Roman Catholic Church is witchcraft, sorcery, a celebration of idolaters and a cult of demons. Babylon the Great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. Actually all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her PLAGUES.

In Christ JESUS, KING of kings (made them by Him) and LORD of lords
 

Oseas3

Well-Known Member
In LITERAL fulfilment of the Word of God, The kingdoms of THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever. Rev.11:v.15


The nations will be angry, yeah, the nations will be angry, but the wrath of God is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged, and that you should give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear your name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth. Rev. 11:v.18

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth - Israel - and of the sea - Gentile nations -! for the Devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has but a short time. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which are, and was, and are to come; because you has taken to thee your Great Power, and will reign for ever.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
Who is part of the Triune God. God exists in Himself; God exists in Jesus: God exists in the Holy Spirit - the Trinity.
God is the omnipresent uncaused Existence. (Acts of the Apostles 17:28) His Hebrew Name has the meaning of the Self Existent One. Deuteronomy 6:4. Proverbs 21:30. Mark 12:29.

John 4:24 (Romans 8:9; Romans 8:16; 2 John 1:9; Matthew 28:19; Jude 1:3). The term Trinity is the name of the explanation of God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit being the One True God.
 

Jfar

New Member
Then they are in error. They pretty much have excommunicated themselves if you ask me. The belief that the Eucharist contains the "Real Presence" of Christ is the most basic belief of the faith.

Yes, they are in error according to Catholic teaching. My point is that I’ve encountered Catholics who vigorously try to convince Baptists, and others, to believe in the “Real Presence”. But knowing that many Catholics also deny the “Real Presence”, whether willfully or out of ignorance, doesn’t exactly bolster their cause.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
Speaking of books, maybe a good read for you would be:






Nic Samojluk
From Pro-life to Pro-choice: The Dramatic Shift in Seventh-day Adventist's Attitudes Towards Abortion

Moloch worship is the worst kind of idolatry and SDA's engage in it seven days a week.
Abortion is murder. The unborn within 24 hours of having his or her own nervous system, has his or her own blood separate from his or her mother. ". . . Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. . . ." -- Genesis 9:6. ". . . no murderer hath eternal life . . . ." -- 1 John 3:15.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
What we all do has been done since the Last Supper, it's you folks who changed it over 1500 years later. You follow Zwingli and his determination about it, we follow God and His determination about it.
The oringinal New Testament teachings were rediscovered, which brought about the Reformation.
 

Walter

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The Eucharist is a worship celebrated by idolaters according to the doctrine of woman, the Great Whore, the Roman Catholic Church, and what they do is just a diabolical dissimulation of celebration made by the Lord JESUS did in memory of His death hanged on the cross the Devil was preparing for Him.

Every religious ceremony performed by the idolaters is a disguised imitation, a sorcerie, it is a celebration made by the spirit of the Devil. It has nothing to do with the Spirit of God the Father, nor of Jesus, nor of the Holy Spirit, but the spirit of Devil, the father of lie. The eucharist celebrated by demons is a source of disease, serious illness, death, and all sorts of misfortunes that happen in people's lives around the Earth.

Eucharist made by the Roman Catholic Church is witchcraft, sorcery, a celebration of idolaters and a cult of demons. Babylon the Great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. Actually all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her PLAGUES.

In Christ JESUS, KING of kings (made them by Him) and LORD of lords

St. Clement of Rome was the third successor of Peter the Apostle as bishop of Rome, our fourth Pope. St. Irenaeus (Book III, iii) tells us that Clement "saw the blessed Apostles and conversed with them, and had yet ringing in his ears the preaching of the Apostles and had their tradition before his eyes, and not he only for many were then surviving who had been taught by the Apostles. " Similarly Epiphanius tells us that Clement was a contemporary of Peter and Paul. There is a tradition that he was ordained by St. Peter and acted as a kind of auxiliary bishop to Linus and Anacletus, his predecessors in the papal chair. His letter to the Corinthians was written between 70-96 A.D. in an effort to restore peace to the Church at Corinith, Greece, which has broken into factions and was intent upon firing some of their presbyters. The epistle, which is written in Greek, is important because of the distinction it makes between leaders of the community and the faithful. Clement refers to the leaders as presbyters or bishops, without making any further distinction, referring specifically to their ministry as the "offering of gifts." He says, "Our sin will not be light if we expel those who worthily and blamelessly have offered the gifts of the episcopacy." This is clearly liturgical language in light of Mt 5:23 and Lv.1: 2 and Lv 7:38, referring in this instance to the Eucharistic sacrifice offered by priests in the Mass.

St. Ignatius of Antioch was a pagan by birth and a Syrian. He became the third bishop of Antioch and may be considered an apostolic Father in the sense that he heard the Apostle John preach. About 110 A.D. he was sentenced to a martyr's death in the arena by the Emperor Trajan, who also put Pope Clement to death. On the almost 1000 mile journey to Rome from Antioch, Syria, the third largest city of the Empire, Ignatius wrote seven letters, which are his only surviving letters. They are addressed to Christian communities he presided over as bishop. He speaks of the Eucharistic mystery in mystical terms saying, "Therefore arm yourselves with gentleness, renew yourselves in faith, which is the Flesh of the Lord, and in charity, which is the Blood of Jesus Christ." His most famous passage says:

I am God’s grain, and I am being ground by the teeth of wild beasts in order that I may be found [to be] pure bread for Christ. My love has been crucified, and there is in me no fire of material love, but rather a living water, speaking in me and saying within me, ‘Come to the Father.’ I take no pleasure in corruptible food or in the delights of this life. I want the bread of God,which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who is the seed of David; and for drink I want his Blood which is incorruptible love.

His reference to "bread of God" is an allusion to John 6: 33, where Jesus says, "It is not Moses who has given you bread from heaven [manna], but it is my Father who gives you the Bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." The Eucharist was a model for the Christ centered approach of Ignatius since he sees the it as an example of the "undying love of Christ as he feeds us with his Flesh and Blood." There is no mistaking his tone in his letter to the Church at Smyrna as he speaks of the Gnostics who had a disdain for material reality:

Charity is no concern to them, nor are widows and orphans or the oppressed . . .They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins and which, in his goodness, the Father raised . . .

Like St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 10: 17, he saw the Eucharistic Body of our Lord as the unifying force in the Church. He
wrote the Philadelphians:

Be careful to observe [only] one Eucharist; for there is only one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ and one cup of union with his Blood, one altar of sacrifice, as [there is] one bishop with the presbyters and my fellow-servants the deacons.

Another unforgettable reference is when he urges Christians to assemble in common and obey the bishop, "breaking one bread that is the medicine of immortality and the antidote against dying that offers life for all in Jesus Christ." These beautiful words sum up Jesus’ own teaching in John 6 and St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 11. Notice also that he refers to the Eucharist as a sacrifice as did the authors of theDidache. Eucharistic theology seems almost complete in St. Ignatius.

St. Justin Martyr who also gave his life for Christ, as his name implies. His Apologies are considered the most important of the 2d century Christian writings of the Fathers of the Early Church. It is difficult not to identify his testimony with an early version of the Catholic Mass, the president or presider being a priest [presbyteros being the Greek root for our English word priest] as he speaks of the Eucharist about 155 A.D.:

For we do not receive these as common bread and common drink; but just as Jesus Christ our Savior, having been made flesh by the word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have learned that the food over which thanks has been given by the prayer of the word which comes from him, [see 1 Cor 11: 23-26; Lk 22; 19] and by which are blood and flesh are nourished through a change, is the Flesh and Blood of the same incarnate Jesus.

In his Dialogue with Trypho the Jew he writes about the pure sacrifice mentioned by the prophet Malachi once again. The message is that the Eucharist has "replaced the sacrifices of the Temple in Jerusalem" just as Malachi prophesied. The Fathers often used this text to demonstrate the sacrificial nature of the offering [of the Eucharist at Mass].

St. Irenaeus who heard the preaching of Bishop Polycarp, who was a disciple of the Apostle John, writing a famous tract Against Heresies between 180 and 190 A.D. is the first to provide explicit mention of the change that takes place in the bread and wine when they become the Eucharist. The earthly creation (bread and wine) are raised to a heavenly dignity after they "receive the word of God" [at the epiclesisof the Mass or the invocation to the Holy Spirit] and become the food and drink of Christians. So how then can we doubt that, "Our bodies, receiving the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible but have the hope of resurrection to eternal life."

St. Hilary of Poitiers (died in 368 A.D.) in his his De Trinitate said that the Eucharist made the Church Christ’s Body and allows us to become one with the Father. St. Cyril of Jerusalem in his Mystagogic Catechesis, a series of sermons dated to the late 4th century, is the first to make clear that the Real Presence is made possible by a changing of the substance of the elements, though the word "transubstantiation" was not yet used. He wrote:

In the Old Covenant there were loaves of proposition [the bread of the presence], but they being of the Old Covenant, have come to an end. In the New Covenant there is a heavenly bread and a cup of salvation that sanctify the body and soul. For as the bread exists for the body, so the Word is in harmony with the soul. Therefore, do not consider them as bare bread and wine; for according to the declaration of the Master, they are Body and Blood. If even the senses suggest this to you [viz. that they are only bread and wine], let faith reassure you. Do not judge the reality by taste but, having full assurance from faith, realize that you have been judged worthy of the Body and Blood of Christ.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Due to it's length this thread is closed.

There have been various topics arising from the original OP, to include the history of the church, the advent of the Catholic Church, the nature of the elements, etc.

Please feel free to begin a new thread any/ all of the topics mentioned if desired.

This thread is closed.
 
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