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WARNINGS NOT TO DEPART THE FAITH (HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-39)

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 3rdAngel, Sep 17, 2019.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Reading between the lines, yes I think we disagree, therefore one of us is wrong.
     
    #121 Van, Sep 20, 2019
  2. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Once again all I hear is your words. You make many accusations but cannot show from the scriptures why you disagree with the scriptures that are provided to you. What is it that you disagree with in the scriptures that have been provided to you? If what I share with you is God's Word and not my words why do you not believe them? Those who are of God hear His Word and those who are not of God do not hear him *JOHN 10:26

    God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him. Those who do not are not His Sheep *JOHN 10:1-10; 26-27.
     
    #122 3rdAngel, Sep 20, 2019
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  3. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Please read the verses again, closely, in MODERN English:
    Hebrews 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

    See? The Scripture plainly says if one falls away, he/she crucifies Jesus again. So, ya might as well cease trying to make the Scripture say something it DOESN'T say.
     
    #123 robycop3, Sep 20, 2019
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  4. mailmandan

    mailmandan Active Member

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    Did you thoroughly read through post #80?

    I already responded to this in post #65.

    We read about falling in scripture, but it's inconclusive that this falling is in regards to a really "saved" person that actually did "lose their salvation." NOWHERE in scripture do we find the words, "lose or lost salvation." Once again, in Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

    By acquiring the qualities listed in 2 Peter 1:5-7, Christians can be sure that God has called them and elected them. Practicing these things will confirm it. Those who are born of God practice righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9-10). Make sure you have been called and elected - bébaios (an adjective, derived from bainō, "to walk where it is solid") – properly, solid (sure) enough to walk on; hence, firm, unshakable; (figuratively) absolutely dependable, giving guaranteed support (security, surety). To practice these qualities gives evidence of salvation, though they are not the basis or means of obtaining salvation.

    In regards to the word stumble or fall, *I find it interesting that the term "stumble" or "fall away" was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter even denied Jesus three times. They were said to "stumble" or "fall away." Matthew 26:31 - Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.' 32 "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee." 33 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away." (NASB) Obviously, this was not a loss of salvation.

    Denying the master who bought them does not mean that these false teachers were saved and if you can believe that "false prophets/false teachers who secretly introduce destructive heresies" are saved, then you can believe anything! Jesus could have been their Lord and Master since he paid the price for their sins (bought them) but Christ did not apply this payment to them because they denied/rejected the Master.
     
    #124 mailmandan, Sep 21, 2019
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  5. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    yes, even the explanation in a Scofield Ref Bible is wrong.
    It is very plain to me. I learned to diagram sentences in High School
     
    #125 loDebar, Sep 21, 2019
  6. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    You would have to deny a lot of scripture defining who has fallen away from the faith in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and also HEBREWS 10:26-39 to say someone who was "ONCE A BELIEVER" cannot "FALL AWAY" and "DRAW BACK" to depart the faith. As shown from the scriptures word for word in God's Word alone. These people are described as...

    HEBREWS 6:4-8 ...
    1. They were once enlightened; HEBREWS 6:4
    2. They tasted of the Heavenly gift; HEBREWS 6:4
    3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4
    4. They tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5
    5. They tasted of the power of the world to come
    6. THEY (BELIEVERS) FALL AWAY; HEBREWS 6:6
    7. THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; HEBREWS 6:6
    8. THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; HEBREWS 6:6

    Then in HEBREWS 10:26-39 we have more "WARNINGS" to "BELIEVERS" and "CONSEQUENCES" of departing the faith ...

    1. IF WE (BELIEVERS) return back to a life of known unrepentant SIN; HEBREWS 10:26
    2. WE (BELIEVERS) being those who have received a knowledge of the truth; HEBREWS 10:26
    3. WE (BELIEVERS) will receive the judgments of God; HEBREWS 10:27
    4. WE (BELIEVERS) will receive a greater punishment for returning to a life of known unrepentant sin because we have receved a knowledge of the truth and turned away from it; HEBREWS 10:29
    5. WE (BELIEVERS) by returning back to known unrepentant sin after we receive a knowledge of the truth we count the blood of the covenant an UNHOLY thing and do despite to the Spirit of Grace; HEBREWS 10:29
    6. WE (BELIEVERS) are warned not to CAST AWAY our confidence which has great reward; HEBREWS 10:35
    7. WE (BELIEVERS) receive God's promise after we do God's will; HEBREWS 10:36
    8. WE (BELIEVERS) are WARNED NOT TO DRAW BACK INTO UNBELIEF; HEBREWS 10:38

    These are "WARNINGS" from God's Word and it is God's Word alone that says that these people were "ONCE BELIEVERS" that departed the faith to return to a life of known unrepentant sin showing indeed that someone who was "ONCE A BELIEVER" can lose their salvation. God's salvation and all of God's promises are always "CONDITIONAL" on "BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word in the "PRESENT TENSE" *JOHN 3:15-21. If we do not believe and follow God's Word we come under "CONDEMNATION" because salvation is by faith in God's Word *JOHN 3:18.

    This is different to PROVERBS 24:16 which is talking about a "RIGHTEOUSS MAN" not an "UNRIGHTEOUSS MAN" which is being spoken of in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 who has "FALLEN AWAY" and has "DRAWN BACK" by rejecting the faith to live a life of known "UNREPENTANT SIN"

    Sorry my friend there is no such thing as "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" this is a false gospel and one that has its origin from the father of lies first preached to Eve in the Garden of Eden *GENESIS 3:1-5. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it. Salvation is "CONDITIONAL" on BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word. If you do not believe and follow God's Word to the end than you do not have salvation *HEBREWS 3:14; HEBREWS 10:38; HEBREWS 12:25-27; 2 PETER 2:20; HEBREWS 3:6-8; HEBREWS 2:3; COLOSSIANS 1:23; JAMES 1:12; MATTHEW 24:13; MARK 13:13; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3; 1 TIMOTHY 4:1.

    God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him *JOHN 10:26-27.
     
    #126 3rdAngel, Sep 21, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
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  7. BroJim95

    BroJim95 New Member

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    #127 BroJim95, Sep 21, 2019
  8. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    BroJim95 missed your reply , please post again
     
    #128 loDebar, Sep 21, 2019
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    This has been your rant. What do you understand ". . . never perish . . . ," John 10:28 to mean? Thanks.
     
    #129 37818, Sep 21, 2019
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  10. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Salvation does not rely of your efforts but the finished work of Christ
    Many claim Jesus then try to keep themselves saved by a Do Not do list. Dependent on a man's actions Which is wrong.
     
    #130 loDebar, Sep 21, 2019
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  11. mailmandan

    mailmandan Active Member

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    Amen! Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

    That salvation is by grace through faith and is not my works is not hard to understand. It’s just hard for work-salvationists to ACCEPT. It’s a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to come to Christ on His terms and not theirs. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith.
     
    #131 mailmandan, Sep 21, 2019
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  12. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    As posted from the start in all the thread provided in this section of the forum supported by God's Word; Salvation and God's promises are always only ever "CONDITIONAL" on believing and following God's Word "present tense". Those who "ONCE BELIEVED" yestersay and today no longer believe and follow God's Word today no longer believe and follow God's Word. This is shown in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and again the warning is given to believers in HEBREWS 10:26-39 and all through the OLD and NEW Testament scriptures. The promise given in JOHN 10:28 (never perish) is only given to those who "BELIEVE AND FOLLOW" God's Word *JOHN 10:26-27 which is the "CONTEXT" of v28.

    God's Salvation and God's promises are only ever "CONDITIONAL" on believing and following God's Word.

    God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him *JOHN 10:26-27. Those who are not God's Sheep do not heat his Voice (the Word of God) and do not follow him and do not have salvation.

    "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" is a false Gospel that teached men can be saved in sin when God's word teaches if we continue in sin we will die *ROMANS 8:13 because all those who continue in known unrepentant sin reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-39; HEBREWS 6:4-8. This is actually the same claim to salvation that the JEWS said to JESUS when they claimed they were God's people because Abraham was their father. The response of JESUS was that if you were ABRAHAMS seed you would do the works of ABRAHAM, you are of your father the devil *JOHN 8:31-44

    JESUS came to save us from sin, not to continue in sin *JOHN 8:31-36. Sin is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10. If we are not born again we cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven *JOHN 3:3-8

    Hope this helps.
     
    #132 3rdAngel, Sep 21, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  13. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    No one has said any differently. We are only saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith that works by LOVE. This is God's work in us and a part of the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12; PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit however it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.
     
    #133 3rdAngel, Sep 21, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  14. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Then why are you still seeking Christ?
     
    #134 loDebar, Sep 21, 2019
  15. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    With respect,
    That right there is why people keep telling you that you are teaching works, not grace.

    To me, you are stating that a person's faith, if it has no fruit, is dead; which it is ( James 2:14-26 ).
    But instead of understanding that there are two "kinds" of faith...true faith that accompanies salvation and that endures to the end, and false faith that only "tares" ( false brethren ) have and that fails when tested... you are assuming that everyone who professes Christ, possesses Christ.;)

    They don't.:Sneaky

    As I see it, not only are you not taking into account Matthew 7:21-23, but you are failing to take into account both the parables of the "tares" and the sower... and their accompanying explanations that the Lord Jesus revealed plainly to His disciples in Matthew 13.

    Please see Matthew 13:18-23 for the Lord's explanation of the parable of the sower, and Matthew 13:36-43 for His explanation of the parable of the tares of the field ( which His enemy has sown / planted ).


    Simply put, you have two choices:

    1) Either a born again believer who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit ( Ephesians 1:13 ), kept by the power of God through faith ( 1 Peter 1:5 ) can fail to produce true spiritual fruit and stop believing, OR...
    2) A person who thinks they are saved ( but is really not ), does not and cannot produce true spiritual fruit and they have never believed with the heart... because they have never been born again and have never been indwelt by the Holy Ghost.

    They profess Christ with the lips, but in works, they deny Him by their actions ( Titus 1:16 ).
    They have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof ( 2 Timothy 3:5 )...with their actions and lack of true spiritual fruit.


    For some strange reason, you choose #1... despite the promises that Christ gave to His sheep:

    John 3:16.
    John 3:36.
    John 5:24.
    John 6:37-40.
    John 10:28-29.
    John 11:25-26.

    Therefore, it is works.
    Why?

    Because if their salvation relied on God and His gracious power alone, then they would not lose their salvation.
    He would do the "keeping", and when He does something or purposes something, it never fails ( Numbers 23:19, Isaiah 14:27, Isaiah 43:13, Daniel 4:35, Proverbs 19:21 ).;)


    Salvation, in no way shape or form, relies on the efforts of men in order to bring it to pass.:Thumbsup
     
    #135 Dave G, Sep 21, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  16. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Rubbish! You have been provided God's Word which are not my words but God's but you choose not to believe them. As quoted from God's Word earlier we are only saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW Word is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith that works by LOVE. This is God's work in us and a part of the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12; PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit however it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

    Now please show me in these scriptures that I have quoted here from God's Word that are not my words but God's Word where it says that we are saved by our works? Now if I have never once said we are saved by our works than why are you pretending that I have said things I have never said or believe? I will leave that between you and God to work through.

    Thats what God's Word says. It is God's Word not mine. I am glad you agree.

    Rubbish! I have never posted or said any such thing. There is only faith and no faith. True saving faith believes and follows God's Word to the end and is a verb that is active present tense. If you believe and follow God's Word today you have true faith. If you believed and followed God's Word yesterday and today you no longer believe and follow God's Word today you do not have saving faith *HEBREWS 3:14; HEBREWS 10:38; HEBREWS 12:25-27; 2 PETER 2:20; HEBREWS 3:6-8; HEBREWS 2:3; COLOSSIANS 1:23; JAMES 1:12; MATTHEW 24:13; MARK 13:13; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3; 1 TIMOTHY 4:1. Only those who believe and follow God's Word and resist temptation to the end receive everlasting life *JAMES 1:12. God's salvation and promises are all "CONDITIONAL" on BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's Word (JOHN 3:15-21; JOHN 10:1-10; JOHN 10:26-27.

    Nope not at all. Everything that has been shared here is on harmony with what is provided in the scriptures. From GENESIS to REVELATION all through God's Word teaches that God's salvation and promises are all "CONDITIONAL" on "BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING" God's Word. If you do not believe and follow God's Word to the end, you do not have salvation *HEBREWS 3:14; HEBREWS 10:38; HEBREWS 12:25-27; 2 PETER 2:20; HEBREWS 3:6-8; HEBREWS 2:3; COLOSSIANS 1:23; JAMES 1:12; MATTHEW 24:13; MARK 13:13; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3; 1 TIMOTHY 4:1.

    Rubbish there is not two of your options at all! It is true we must be born again to walk in God's Spirit by "BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word. However, we as "BELIEVERS" are "WARNED" not to "GRIEVE", "QUENCH" or put out God's Spirit by "NOT BELEIVING" and "FOLLOWING" God's Word * EPHESIANS 4:30; 1 THESSAOLONIANS 5:19; HEBREWS 3:17; PSALMS 95:10-11; HEBREWS 3:10-11; PSALMS 119:158; GENESIS 6:5-7; ISAIAH 59:2. Those who no longer choose to believe and follow God's Word have become "UNBELIEVERS" *HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-39.

    Thankyou, these scriptures support what is being shared with you here and that is JESUS came to save us from sin not to continue in sin *JOHN 8:31-36. There will be many that think they are saved but are not because they did not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word *MATTHEW 7:22-23. By their fruits you shall know them *JOHN 15:1-10. SIN is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10. These scriptures teach against the FALSE Gospel of "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" which promotes a form of godliness but denies the power thereof *2 TIMOTHY 3:5.

    More to come...
     
    #136 3rdAngel, Sep 21, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  17. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Rubbish! I have chosen no such thing and believe no such thing. So if I do not believe or have I ever said what you claim then your post is irrelavant as you are making arguments no one is making.

    Your error here is that you believe that we do not choose to believe or not believe God's Word. This is not biblical as is shown in the scriptures here already provided *JOHN 3:15-21. Salvation is by faith. We can choose to believe God's Word or not believe God's Word. God never forces us to believe and follow His Word he gives us power to "CHOOSE" to "BELIEVE" or "NOT BELIEVE" * PHILEMON 1:14; 1 CORINTHIANS 7:37; DEUTERONOMY 30:19; JOSHUA 24:14-15; JOHN 3:15-21. Your view of the scriptures is not biblical.

    According to your view it is then impossible to be tempted. This is also unbiblical. God never fails and his salvation and promises as stated from GENESIS to REVELATION are all "CONDITIONAL ON BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING GOD'S WORD" *JOHN 10:1-10; JOHN 10:26-27; MATTHEW 7:24.

    No one has said that salvation depends on men to bring it to come to pass so please do not pretend that they have. Our part is to choose this day who we will believe and follow. Do we believe and follow God's Word or do we choose not to believe and follow *JOSHUA 24:14-15; PHILEMON 1:14; 1 CORINTHIANS 7:37; DEUTERONOMY 30:19; JOHN 3:15-21. God's Word does not teach that we are robots with no free will. That is simply not biblical.

    Hope this helps
     
    #137 3rdAngel, Sep 21, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  18. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    You believe that salvation can be lost by a born again believer, do you not?
    Explain to me how God loses one of His children that He promises to keep by His own power ( 1 Peter 1:5 ), if salvation is 100% "of the Lord".
    He chooses, and causes a person to approach Him ( Psalms 65:4 ).
    The believer only loves Him, because He first loved the believer ( 1 John 4:19 ).

    No man, except that person be saved, thinks that the preaching of the cross is anything but foolishness ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).
    God forces no one to believe.
    However, when He changes the heart, we freely believe His words.:)
    If it is conditional on men performing a set of actions, then salvation is not a gift, but a reward for meeting the requirements, isn't it?
    If it has to be gained by meeting requirements, then those efforts at meeting the requirements, are works.

    Only God's efforts at saving someone for Himself, are "grace".

    Your view takes God's grace, and makes it dependent upon the efforts and will of men.
    Again, you mix God's grace with "doing our part".
    It's one thing to state that a person has to "do" something because the Bible states it as a "condition" or a necessary evidence...it's quite another to make salvation dependent upon that person's obedience, effort, action, or belief.

    Again, this is works ( Romans 11:5-6 ), not grace.

    Put another way...

    Does a person believe because they are saved, or are they saved because they believe?
     
    #138 Dave G, Sep 21, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  19. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Look again at your quote, carefully.

    First you state that salvation does not depend on men to bring it to pass.
    Then you turn right around and make salvation dependent upon what men do, by saying that "our part is to choose".

    Therefore, the choice that men make, determines whether or not they are saved...doesn't it?:Sneaky
    If it depends upon the choice that men make, then the "impetus" is on man, and not God alone.


    So....how exactly is that not man doing works, @3rdAngel, when the Bible itself says this?

    " not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    6 which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;"     ( Titus 3:5-6 )

    Scripture tells us that it was according to His mercy He saved us...not by any work of righteousness which we have done.
    Is belief a work of righteousness?
    How about obedience to His words?

    Yes.

    Outside of being made righteous by the blood of Christ, our righteousness is as filthy rags ( Isaiah 64:6 ).

    Therefore, one has to already be righteous, to do works of righteousness.:)
     
    #139 Dave G, Sep 21, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  20. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I agree.

    It teaches that we are in total rebellion to Him and His ways ( Romans 1:18-32 ).
    It teaches that there are none that seek God ( Romans 3:10-18, Psalms 10:4 ).
    It teaches that we are willing servants to sin ( Romans 6:20 ).
    It teaches that men hate Him and His Son ( Romans 1:32, John 3:19-20, John 15:18 ).

    There is no such thing as "free" will, because man begins life already in sin ( Psalms 58:3 ), and already set in our ways and loving it.

    Man's will is already biased against God.
    Free will, when it comes to mankind, is a myth.

    It's not "free" and unbiased, because God's word actually states that we hate Him.
    So...man is not a robot, and neither are we innocent of wrongdoing.

    Furthermore, unless He makes a person born again, no man would ever seek reconciliation with Him.
     
    #140 Dave G, Sep 21, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
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