Featured Subtlety of wrong doctrine.

Although I am going to use a popular song as a demonstration, this thread is to explore ways the assembly should be aware of “the little foxes.”

When is doctrinal error allowed just because ....?

Here is an example:

“Come behold the wondrous mystery” (Come Behold The Wondrous Mystery Lyrics — MATT PAPA)

Then the song continues as if Christ’s death, resurrection, ascension, and return was a mystery!

Each line starts with “Come behold the wondrous mystery.”

Now, Colossians presents that the mystery was not hoist but the church in which the gentiles would be grafted into the believing Jews. The prophets were never given such information. It was hidden, secrete a mystery.

So what else is presented to your assembly in which doctrinal error or even compromise is allowed?

Is there a study lesson, a book study, a esteeming of a person in which is given a pass because it seems right, it sounds good, it tickles the fancy, ... but actually teaches error?

Your turn.

 

Colossians makes it clear what the mystery was.

Hidden from the ancients was NOT the gospel, but that the gospel would be given to the gentles as an inclusive group grafted into the believing Jews.

All other aspects of the Christ except this, were revealed. Birth (where, when and to whom), ministry (extent shown more often in words such as “that it might be fulfilled as spoken by the prophets...”), death (time, place, manner) resurrection. There was and is no “mystery.” Nothing hidden concerning the Christ.

There are two mysteries given, one still hidden the other revealed. First is that question by the disciples, “When will you return,” the other, which was referred to by Christ is statements such as, “...other sheep...” and as Acts validates the beginning, the church.

Here then is my point. If one is going to use “mystery,” it brings with the word that which was once hidden and now either revealed or still hidden. As Paul states, “I show (tell) you a mystery” in speaking of the sequence and resurrection. Such “mystery” is an example of that hidden now revealed.

Do you know of any NT use in which the word is used differently?

Is it not used as such in the references that you posted?

Why then is such error allowed?

Is error allowed because the rest is all so very good?

Is that not the way a little fox enters?

What other unScriptural presentation is allowable because it just is so good except in ....? Not just musically, but by association, or holding loosely foundational truths. The mystery of the church in which Christ died for is a foundational truth. Is it to be held lightly, it’s purity diminished by poor doctrinal presentations?

Is not this level of discernment to be a standard of the elders and deacons n the assembly, that the immature not be swayed?

 

But, there was understanding. Did not the priest point out to
Herod the place of birth? Were not people already looking for Messiah?

Just because “His own received Him not...” does not mean they did not know who He was. Even the savage man called legion was aware.

There is a difference between revealing and accepting.

I visit with folks every day that give no thought that tonight they may be facing an unprepared eternity. It is certain. Death is appointed. It is a matter of accepting.

But, what was not revealed by the prophets? What was spoken of by the Christ and continues in fulfillment? His church. That which He loves and gave himself.

Now would it not have been far better in the acknowledged work of the Christ, that the verse declare the wondrous glory, rather than mystery?

Is that not the message of 1 Peter 5 that the glory is shared just as the sufferings are shared?

Would not “glory” present a more consistent presentation. When the slain lamb grabbed the scroll from the Father, all heaven rang with praise and glory.

“Oh behold the wondrous glory...” would make the song biblically sound.

 

Never stated the error was heretical.

It is presumptive that examination must be made of every NT use of 5he word “mystery” must be made.

The fact is that “mystery” does not apply to the Christ as this song does apply it.

The NT containing other mysteries revealed or unrevealed (as Paul states in Corinthians “it does not yet appear ...” - a mystery yet to be experienced) does not change the facts concerning this specific song.

However, this song is but an example of “little foxes” such small cuddly things that folks may assume are cute, unimportant, of no grand alarm, yet do great destruction.

This thread seeks to examine other subtle means used to bring error.

To give another example, the typical miracle worker is considered by most (and indeed are) charlatans. However, did miracles cease? In books and media there is pressure to agree to certain miracles, yet what discernment is used and taught to determine truth from error?

Or does the sensual override and cover the error so more error can sneak under the fence?

Does not the Scripture state, “I will not set before my eyes anything that is worthless. I hate the work of those who fall away; it shall not cling to me.” What is more worthless then error?

John, you performed as the character, Scrooge. Reformation of character is taught as becoming righteous in the story. Few bring to the end righteousness is only found in Christ, not self awakened reform. It is a small matter in most eyes, yet how many carry that same philosophy in rejection of the gospel?

It is a small fox, but error none the less.

 

Then tell me a single line of the song that was not revealed to the folks in prophesy.

Again, it is my view that all aspects of the earthly ministry were previously spoken of by the prophets.

Apparently your thinking is that some mystery was hidden from the prophets that this song is pointing out.

So you must show some line that was not for told.

 

What part of this is your definition of mystery?
Definition of mystery
(Entry 1 of 2)

1a: something not understood or beyond understanding : ENIGMAThe mystery of his disappearance has never been solved.
b: a piece of fiction dealing usually with the solution of a mysterious crime Reading mysteries was her favorite pastime.
c: the secret or specialized practices or ritual peculiar to an occupation or a body of people the mysteries of the tailor's craft
dobsolete : a private secret
2: profound, inexplicable, or secretive quality or character the mystery of her smilethe mysteries and beauties of nature
3a: a religious truth that one can know only by revelation and cannot fully understand the mystery of the Trinity
b(1): any of the 20 events (such as the Nativity, the Crucifixion, or the Assumption) serving as a subject for meditation during the saying of the rosary
(2)capitalized : a Christian sacramentspecifically : EUCHARIST
c(1): a secret religious rite believed (as in Eleusinian and Mithraic cults) to impart enduring bliss to the initiate
(2): a cult devoted to such rites
(taken from: Definition of MYSTERY)​

It is within the COMMON definition of the word mystery that I produced the OP.

That you disagree should then put an injunction obliging proof supporting your disagreement. To do so must show and prove by Scripture exactly which line of the lyrics was in fact an undisclosed truth mystery.

I demonstrated that it was the church that was the mystery by pointing to Paul's statement that the church was the mystery in Colossians.

It provides no edification when you refuse by attempting to present a non-response to post "demands" stand is leaving you seemingly defenseless. For certainly when you make such a claim as to agree that the lyrics do express what was a mystery, then it is incumbent that you demonstrate such to be the case.

Therefore, I have used common thinking of the word "mystery" I have asked that you prove that the song lyrics use the word properly by selecting a single line from the lyrics - much less asking that you use all verses.

Paul speaks of the "mystery" as being hidden Colosians 4:3 in terms of the ministry to gentiles who have yet to hear. Not how the song uses it.
Paul uses "mystery" multiple times in Ephesians as being hidden as in 5:32 in terms of the union of one flesh of husband and wife is that of Christ and the church. Not once how the song uses it.
Paul uses "mystery" in the writing of Romans 11 in describing the current and future condition of the Jews and Gentiles. Not as the song uses it.

And on it could be shown, that in every instance something was hidden and revealed or has yet to be revealed.

WHERE does the OP get that the mystery hidden from the beginning was THE CHURCH and not the Christ?

From the statement of Paul in Colossians 1:

24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, 25of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, 26the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. 27To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. 29For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.
​

That dear friend is the statement of Scriptures and is certainly NOT how the song presents.

Now, for you to prove otherwise, please select just a single line from the song and show how that part of the lyrics concerning Christ was "hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints."

For certainly, as the OP states, that every aspect of the ministry described in the song was revealed by the prophets and also as the OP noted was known.

One other, point pertaining to the PS.

You may certainly disagree that little foxes do not do great damage. Here perhaps you may consider a real life example: (The Fundamentalists and Billy Graham) and/or (When Did Graham's Compromise Begin?)

Little foxes do great damage.

Popular does not mean truthful, and little compromise should be even considered when something is untruthful. The fact that it is popular, cuddly, nostalgic, appeals to the sensual should place the highest scrutiny for veracity on not only this song, but any presentation of the gospel.
For the more popular, the more damage the lie can be accepted as the truth. Just as Eve accepted the deception of the serpent.

 

You gave, Eph. 1, Eph. 6:1, and 1 Cor. 15, each acknowledged and addressed in the post above.

What you do not seem to desire to admit is that the word is used inappropriately in the song by pointing to evidences that were not mysteries.

I gave you Webster, and you don’t like it. Fine.

I gave you Scriptures, and you don’t think that is enough, that is fine.

What you have not done is take even a single phrase from the lyrics and prove that it was previously hidden from the OT writers.

I dare say you cannot, so the truth of the OP stands.

Btw, the NT never presents the life and ministry of Christ as a mystery either.

The closest it comes is Paul’s statement concerning the Christ and church relationship being that expressed in the husband wife relationship. That is not the presentation of the song.

Now prove to me you really now what “mystery” means inthe a Scripture, how it is different then public dictionary meanings, and at what point the life and ministry of the Christ was hidden from the OT writers.

Your the one who raised these issues. I presented the song as a mere example encouraging others to contribute warning of other items of danger. But your drilling down is without foundation unless you can actually prove your claims.

One other point. I did address the destruction in the above post.

I admit my posts are long.

Suppose I spent too many years lecturing.

 

Ok, John, let's see if any of these verses use mystery as the way the song presents it as it pertains to the actual lyrics.

Not how the song uses the word. The song states nothing of the kingdom which has already been acknowledged as the true mystery - the church of mingled Gentiles and Jews (Colossians 1:24-29).

Not how the song uses the word. The song states nothing of the kingdom which has already been acknowledged as the true mystery - the church of mingled Gentiles and Jews (Colossians 1:24-29).

Not how the song uses the word. The song is not about some being able to discern and others not.

Not how the song uses the word. The blindness of some and awareness of others is not part of the song.

Not how the song uses the word. The song states nothing of the kingdom which has already been acknowledged as the true mystery - the church of mingled Gentiles and Jews (Colossians 1:24-29). THAT is the mystery of the gospel. It was NOT just to the Jews but to all, and was hidden from the beginning of the world.

Not how the song uses the word.
NOTE: SEE HIDDEN from before the world? John, your posts are not helping your thinking of approval of the use of the word "mystery" by the song.

Not how the song uses the word.
Besides, you have yet to demonstrate your own knowledge of just what the "mysteries of God" actually involves? For Paul states it very clearly what that mystery is in Colossians 1:24-19.

Not how the song uses the word.

Not how the song uses the word.

Not how the song uses the word.

Not how the song uses the word.

Not how the song uses the word. That God brings brought Paul awareness doesn't present that the Christ was a mystery. How was something revealed to Paul that was already revealed?

Not how the song uses the word. Again, Paul is hardened in using "mystery" as that which was hidden and not revealed until Christ revealed it in statements such as: "I have other sheep ..."

Not how the song uses the word. See the words "...from the beginning of the world hath been hidden in God..."? What part of the lyrics do they present that which was "hidden in God? NONE. Which is the point of the OP.

Not how the song uses the word. This verse has already been dealt with in a previous post.

Not how the song uses the word. John, the MYSTERY of the gospel was not the death burial and resurrection - all were foretold, all were accomplished in history. but what was the mystery was that such was to be available to the Gentiles! That the Church would be a blend of both Jews and Gentiles. Just as Romans and Colossians teaches. But NOT what the song presents.

Not how the song uses the word.

Not how the song uses the word. What part of the lyrics actually state something HIDDEN from the beginning of the World? The birth? The life? The death? The resurrection? The establishment of the kingdom as King of Kings? NONE!

Not how the song uses the word.

Not how the song uses the word. AGAIN the use of mystery in this verse is the inclusion of Gentiles and Jews into the church (kingdom, bride).
The MYSTERIES of Christ? NOT ONE of them is presented in the song which is the point of the OP!

Not how the song uses the word.

Not how the song uses the word. What is the "mystery of faith?" Just what was the commission that was given to Timothy as regarding the deacons to hold true too? Was it not the foundation stones of the doctrine of which Peter spoke and the Lord responded, "Upon this rock (statement by Peter) I will build my church..." ? Did you miss that the deacons are to be about the building of the church?
Is this what the song is presenting? Nope.

CLOSE! But not quite! The song states nothing of any of these presentations. Yet, if we were engaged in horse shoes you might have a leaner at best. But obviously, the verse has no bearing on how the song uses the word "mystery."

Not how the song uses the word.

Not how the song uses the word.

Not how the song uses the word.

Now John, certainly you can see that in every case the word "mystery" is used as that formerly hidden and no longer hidden, or as yet to be revealed? Indeed, I have yet to find a single verse in which the Scriptures do not use "mystery" in such a manner.

Now that you know how the word is used in the Scriptures, perhaps it will be wise to go back and apply how the word is used in the lyrics. Is it used appropriately?

Is there even a single line of the song was hidden from the beginning and revealed or yet to be revealed?

So far you have only strengthened the OP's view.[/QUOTE]

 

But you see I did answer the question. I used the personal experience you went through and have first hand understanding. Your grandfather considered and supported Graham until the little foxes discerned by Jones Sr. were finally revealed to your grandfather in a manner he could no longer ignore. By that time, damage was already done, and it became extremely divisive as all little foxes allowed in the garden result. Jones Sr. discerned the problem when it was small insignificant "foxes."

But you know this - you lived through parts of it.

I used it as an example how something seeming very little and insignificant can result in great damage. How many. years between the warning of Jones Sr. and the removal of support by your grandfather? They were both right, but what sadness lay between them, and what damage continues to even this day?