The Church

Wow, your entire doctrine is self-centered. It's all about you. In your doctrine God is dependent on you.

 

John 3:5 has absolutely nothing to do with water baptism. The notion it does, can be a damnable false teaching.

 

Please

Please fill in the missing word from John 3:5...

"Jesus answered, 'Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of _______ and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'" (John 3:5, KJV)

a. burning in the bosom
b. a belief that one thinks they are saved
c. water


At the end of St. Matthew's Gospel, Christ instructs His Apostles to teach and baptize all nations. He gives the Apostles the the proper form for administering the sacrament, "...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (Mt 28:19)

---> Do you know of anyone using this form for a baptism sans water?

 

We all know what John 3:5 says. What it doesn't say is:
Except a man be water baptized and Spirit baptized, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

Your church dogma forces baptism into John 3:5. The context of the conversation with Nicodemus has absolutely nothing to do with baptism, however. You are doing a fantastic job of eisegesis with the text, but exegisis of the text shows you are wrong.

 

It would seem to me that John 3:5 has every thing to do with water and Holy Spirit. The verse and it's context is all about washing away sin, it doesn't say 'born again of spirit' alone, it doesn't say 'born again of water alone.

He said quit clearly, "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." [John 3:5]

Did you catch the "Amen, amen" part? That means it deemed that "unless. . . of water and the Holy Spirit. "Unless" means "except; but; save". Let's try it. No one enters the kingdom of God except he is born again of water and Holy Spirit'. Or, 'No one enters the kingdom of God but he is born again of water and Holy Spirit. Or, 'No one enters the kingdom of God save he is born again of water and Holy Spirit.' Sure enough, water and Holy Spirit.

Please feel free to explain to me how water/Holy Spirit is a damnable false teaching. The Church holds to it, the Bible says it, how did you determine that it is damnable? Are you afraid of water?

added: In your explanation you might use these verses to make it absolutely clear: John 3:22; 4:1; Ephesians 5:26; Acts 8:36; 10:47;22:16; Titus 3:5-6; Heb. 10:22

JoeT

 

You add what is not in the text. Notice the word "again" is not in the text. You are attempting to interpolate your dogma into the verse by adding something that is not there.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

 

In Christianity, Baptism involves what two things?

a. water and the Spirit
b. feelings and the Spirit
c. the Spirit and the Spirit

The encounter has everything to do with baptism. For what does St. John record Jesus and the Apostles doing after this encounter with Nicodemus?

---> See John 3:22


Why does St. John tell us the setting occurs in Aenon?

--> See John 3:23


I am starting to think Protestants view the Scriptures as the most complete set of coincidences ever recorded.

 

You are attempting to force baptism into John 3:5 when it is not there.

The effectual baptism for the believer is the immersion of our sinful self into the righteousness of Christ. We are found entirely in Christ by that gracious and glorious immersion, accomplished by the Holy Spirit.
Water Baptism is a symbolic expression to a rebel world that we are no longer citizens in the kingdoms of men, but we are now found in Christ as citizens of the Kingdom of God. It tells the world that we are in Christ.

 

We already did "unless" with 37818, so I'll skip that.

“unless a man be born again of (1)water and the (2)Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the (3)kingdom of God.” [John 3:5].​

1. water: otherwise known as matter consisting of one atom of hydrogen and 2 atoms of oxygen in the liquid state is transparent and odorless having a viscous flowable consistency that seeks its own level. And it can be really cold when it flows down out of the mountains.
2. Holy Ghost: a.k.a. Holy Spirit, or simply Spirit for short. a.k.a. Paraclete (The spirit that makes all doctrine known to the Church)
3. kingdom of God: The Catholic Church on earth, God's Kingdom containing the triumphant (the Saints in heaven). You know all those who did believe in water and spirit baptism. And there appeared to them parted tongues as it were of fire, and it sat upon every one of them acts 2:3 Matthew 3:11 Luke 3:16

Nicodemus was a Rabbi of the highest ranking and we read in St. John's Gospel that he wasn't surprised at the use of water or fire. Baptism wasn't a new ritual invented by Christ or John the Baptist. Moving water was said to have the Spirit of God moving across the surface of the pool in which the Jew would perform his purification rituals. [Cf. John 5:3]. Christ gave us living waters. [Cf. John 4:10] Nicodemus was, however, surprised by the 'regenerative' properties Christ ascribed to Baptism, Christ had perfected the graces of Baptism. This should be obvious when reading the Gospels we see John announcing the coming of Christ and admonishing a people to redemption. The Jews of Christ's day would have immediately connected the waters of John's baptism to "Tevilah” (teh-VEE-luh) a Jewish cleansing ritual performed in a pool of 'moving' water called a mikvah. The Jewish Tevilah or baptism was a liturgical gathering at a ritual bath used for spiritual purification. It is used primarily in conversion rituals and cleansing after a woman's menstrual cycles. The Chasidim, a branch of Orthodox Judaism, immerse in a mikvah regularly for general spiritual purification.

The fire came down in visible tongues on those of the faithful gathered after the period of Pentecost. All filled with the Holy Ghost” [a.k.a. Spirit]. [Acts 2:4].Then what happened? They all went and got baptized in water! Amazing, right there in Scripture ALONE.

I must ask, if baptism is unnecessary, why was St. Paul Baptized - did not the light of faith come to him in the desert; only beginning to preach after Baptism because he would not be justified until after Baptism - before which every act is avaricious.

I'll stop here, I've made my point, there is one Christ, one Baptism which leads into only one Church, the Catholic Church.

JoeT

 

Jesus' answer in John 3:5 was to Nicodemus' questions, John 3:4, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus spoke of two births, "born of water and of the Spirit." Further explaining, John 3:6, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Explicitly two births. And nothing about baptism.

Now baptism, without qualification, can be understood to mean water baptism. Now nowhere in the NT does "water" ever mean baptism without baptism being mentioned in the immediate context. Acts of the Apostles 10:47-48.

 

St. John is the one "forcing" baptism into John 3:5, not me. You never answered:

What does St. John record Jesus and the Apostles doing after this encounter with Nicodemus?

---> See John 3:22


Why does St. John tell us the setting occurs in Aenon?

---> See John 3:23


I really think Protestants view the Scriptures as the most complete set of coincidences ever recorded.

St. Paul explicitly says it is in baptism where we are immersed into the death and resurrection of Christ and born into the newness of life...

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." - Romans 6:3-4


You never answered:

In Christianity, Baptism involves what two things?

a. water and the Spirit
b. feelings and the Spirit
c. the Spirit and the Spirit


In Christianity, matter...matters.

 

It always amazes me to see the anti-Scramentalists continually try and re-define what it means to be born again and rid Christianity of baptism. Let's look at the encounter with Jesus and Nicodemus...

Verse 5 is our Blessed Lord's answer to Nicodemus' question as to how man can be born again. Our Lord says two things are required for man to be born again. Here is the scene using the KJV...


---> John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

---> John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

---> Our Blessed Lord now describes how man is born again in John 3:5: Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

---> John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

---> John 3:7 "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."


Our Blessed Lord is explicit that two things are required for a man to be born again and thus enter the Kingdom of God: Water and the Spirit.

Anti-Sacramentalism is born from a fallacious Christology. Try as they may to rid Christianity of baptism, they cannot. For it is in baptism where man is born again, which gives him "newness of life." (cf. Romans 6:4)

 

John never brings it up in the entire dialogue with Nicodemus.
John 3:1-21 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesusby night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born againhe cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘Youmust be born again.’ The windblows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but youdo not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

In summary, no baptism is mentioned. You are forcing your dogma upon scripture.

 

Stop dodging and please answer...

What does St. John record Jesus and the Apostles doing after this encounter with Nicodemus?

---> See John 3:22


Why does St. John tell us the setting occurs in Aenon?

---> See John 3:23


Do you think it is nothing more than a coincidence that St. John includes these details in this account?

 

Paul isn't referring to water baptism in Romans 6. The Greek word, baptizo, was a common word, which means to immerse or dip into.

Read Romans 6. The Spirit is immersing us into Christ. We are dipped into Christ, not into water. Thus, Romans 6 has nothing to do with water baptism.

Please, stop abusing scripture by shoving your dogma into scripture and demanding that your dogma define scripture. Scripture shows your dogma is wrong.

Romans 6:1-11 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old selfwas crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

 

The story about John the Baptist is completely unrelated to Nicodemus. You are making a false correlation and forcing your dogma onto the text.

 

Jesus in John 3:5 was answering Nicodemus' two questions he asked in John 3:4 regarding what Jesus had told him in John 3:3. See John 3:6-7.

Remember it was you who made the untrue claim,

 

Here we disagree. Baptism without qualification refers to water. What baptism represents is not caused by the baptism.

 

Indeed we disagree.
The immersion is into Christ, not into water. The text is clear
Romans 6:1-11 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old selfwas crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

 

I don't know about qualifications, but what St. John did not say “born of water and of the spirit” Then you might be able to say water relates somehow to our earthly birth and spirit relates only to a spiritual rejuvenation. But we know from Titus 3:6 "he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost." Just in case you are adverse to water, to laver (or to wash) is done in water. In Judaism "water" is said to bring life, it was said to flow out from the Temple. “For thee my soul hath thirsted; for thee my flesh, O how many ways! In a desert land, and where there is no way, and no water: so in the sanctuary have I come before thee, to see thy power and thy glory." [Psalms 62:2-3]. And we see it again in Psalms 106:35 “He hath turned a wilderness into pools of water, and a dry land into water springs. And in the New Covenant we have John being shown rivers of crystal clear water giving sustenance to the "tree of life", [Apocalypse 22:1].

Given the metaphoric understanding of "water" it is quite clear that it does not represent an earthly birth because the "flesh profiteth nothing." Christ is speaking of a regeneration not two births, one earthly and one spiritual. This should become evident is verse 12, "If I have spoken to you earthly things, and you believe not; how will you believe, if I shall speak to you heavenly things?" [John 3:12].

Baptism, water and Spirit renew our relationship with God. There are two types of sin, the type in which we ourselves volunteer an immoral act; this is called actual sin because the individually actually wills the dastardly deed. We are guilty of another type of sin; we bear the guilt of original sin, as an adult or as an infant simply because we are progeny of Adam.

The original justice accompanying Adam's creation was a moral quality or habit that perfectly joined the will to an enlightened understanding of the will of God. Inexplicably joined to the other cardinal virtues, justice gives the rights to honorable prudence, temperance, and fortitude in moral acts. Prior to his original act of rebellion, God 'abides' in Adam. This abiding is much like we are invited to abide in Christ when partaking in the Eucharist. [Cf. John 6:57]. Christ renews us through the Church with the Grace of Baptism (water and Spirit). The punishment of original sin is the deprivation of original justice that once belonged to our patriarch. All men inherit this one man’s sin being a part of the family of Homo sapiens. Prior to the fall, Adam stood before God as a just man. The original man was created with a soul that was perfectly joined to the intellect and perfectly united with the will of God, overflowing the knowledge of truth; the intellect functioned in the light of God's will disciplining the lower appetites through reason alone. However, because of his unjust act likely born out of the philosophies nominalism, relativism and rationalism, we now bear the guilt for the sin of this one man.

The graces received in Baptism regenerate the soul, making it 'right with God', i.e. righteous. It starts us on a journey from a sate of unjust to perfectly just, "not rightness of knowledge or rightness of action but is rightness of will.” Perfecting, as it we, the state of justice, the movement from the state of unjust to a perfection of justice, a will atone to the will of God. “Justice is uprightness (rectitudo)-of-will kept for its own sake.” [St. Anselm, On Truth, 12].

That was a rather long post, wasn't it? In any event Baptism is a lot more than walking the aisle and confessing one's faith. It is an efficacious grace that begins our journey in the Kingdom of God.

JoeT