The Church

[37818]

Indeed we disagree.
The immersion is into Christ, not into water. The text is clear
Romans 6:1-11 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old selfwas crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Using the same type of hermeneutic, ". . .the baptism of repentance into the remission of sins. . . ." -- Mark 1:4.

 

[37818]

Indeed we disagree.
The immersion is into Christ, not into water. The text is clear
Romans 6:1-11 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old selfwas crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Now compare ". . . baptized into Jesus Christ . . . ." with ". . . . baptized unto Moses . . . ." (1 Corinthians 10:2).

. . . εβαπτισθημεν εις χριστον ιησουν . . . .
. . . εις τον μωσην εβαπτισαντο . . . .

 

[Particular]

Using the same type of hermeneutic, ". . .the baptism of repentance into the remission of sins. . . ." -- Mark 1:4.

Not applicable. John's water baptism was for Israel and it marked a desire to repent in regard to breaking the law.

 

[37818]

I don't know about qualifications, but what St. John did not say “born of water and of the spirit” Then you might be able to say water relates somehow to our earthly birth and spirit relates only to a spiritual rejuvenation. But we know from Titus 3:6 "he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost." Just in case you are adverse to water, to laver (or to wash) is done in water. In Judaism "water" is said to bring life, it was said to flow out from the Temple. “For thee my soul hath thirsted; for thee my flesh, O how many ways! In a desert land, and where there is no way, and no water: so in the sanctuary have I come before thee, to see thy power and thy glory." [Psalms 62:2-3]. And we see it again in Psalms 106:35 “He hath turned a wilderness into pools of water, and a dry land into water springs. And in the New Covenant we have John being shown rivers of crystal clear water giving sustenance to the "tree of life", [Apocalypse 22:1].

Given the metaphoric understanding of "water" it is quite clear that it does not represent an earthly birth because the "flesh profiteth nothing." Christ is speaking of a regeneration not two births, one earthly and one spiritual. This should become evident is verse 12, "If I have spoken to you earthly things, and you believe not; how will you believe, if I shall speak to you heavenly things?" [John 3:12].

Baptism, water and Spirit renew our relationship with God. There are two types of sin, the type in which we ourselves volunteer an immoral act; this is called actual sin because the individually actually wills the dastardly deed. We are guilty of another type of sin; we bear the guilt of original sin, as an adult or as an infant simply because we are progeny of Adam.

The original justice accompanying Adam's creation was a moral quality or habit that perfectly joined the will to an enlightened understanding of the will of God. Inexplicably joined to the other cardinal virtues, justice gives the rights to honorable prudence, temperance, and fortitude in moral acts. Prior to his original act of rebellion, God 'abides' in Adam. This abiding is much like we are invited to abide in Christ when partaking in the Eucharist. [Cf. John 6:57]. Christ renews us through the Church with the Grace of Baptism (water and Spirit). The punishment of original sin is the deprivation of original justice that once belonged to our patriarch. All men inherit this one man’s sin being a part of the family of Homo sapiens. Prior to the fall, Adam stood before God as a just man. The original man was created with a soul that was perfectly joined to the intellect and perfectly united with the will of God, overflowing the knowledge of truth; the intellect functioned in the light of God's will disciplining the lower appetites through reason alone. However, because of his unjust act likely born out of the philosophies nominalism, relativism and rationalism, we now bear the guilt for the sin of this one man.

The graces received in Baptism regenerate the soul, making it 'right with God', i.e. righteous. It starts us on a journey from a sate of unjust to perfectly just, "not rightness of knowledge or rightness of action but is rightness of will.” Perfecting, as it we, the state of justice, the movement from the state of unjust to a perfection of justice, a will atone to the will of God. “Justice is uprightness (rectitudo)-of-will kept for its own sake.” [St. Anselm, On Truth, 12].

That was a rather long post, wasn't it? In any event Baptism is a lot more than walking the aisle and confessing one's faith. It is an efficacious grace that begins our journey in the Kingdom of God.

JoeT

Jesus tought one must be born again, John 3:3; John 3:7. Nicodemus did not understand how, John 3:4. Jesus explained there are two births, John 3:5; John 3:6. That it is the latter birth that is needed. And Jesus in explaining this said nothing of water baptism.

 

[37818]

Not applicable. John's water baptism was for Israel and it marked a desire to repent in regard to breaking the law.

It was the baptism of Jesus' first disciples, Peter, John, etc.

 

[Particular]

Now compare ". . . baptized into Jesus Christ . . . ." with ". . . . baptized unto Moses . . . ." (1 Corinthians 10:2).

. . . εβαπτισθημεν εις χριστον ιησουν . . . .
. . . εις τον μωσην εβαπτισαντο . . . .

Neither have to do with immersion into water.
You are making my point that the word baptizo means to immerse. The context around the word tells us into what object the immersion will take place.
In the above case the immersion is either into Christ or into Moses. In neither of these cases is the immersion into water.

 

[37818]

Neither have to do with immersion into water.
You are making my point that the word baptizo means to immerse. The context around the word tells us into what object the immersion will take place.
In the above case the immersion is either into Christ or into Moses. In neither of these cases is the immersion into water.

1 Corinthians 10:2, ". . . in the cloud and in the sea; . . ."
Romans 6:4-5, ". . . Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: . . . ." As a Baptist I was taught this is what water baptism represents.

 

[Particular]

It was the baptism of Jesus' first disciples, Peter, John, etc.

Sure. Those disciples were Jewish. They were under the Mosaic Law.

You do realize that many different groups were baptizing and doing so for different reasons... don't you?

 

[Particular]

1 Corinthians 10:2, ". . . in the cloud and in the sea; . . ."
Romans 6:4-5, ". . . Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: . . . ." As a Baptist I was taught this is what water baptism represents.

You are mixing things up. Just stick with the text. In Romans 6 we what we are immersed into. Guess what. It isn't water.

 

[37818]

Sure. Those disciples were Jewish. They were under the Mosaic Law.

You do realize that many different groups were baptizing and doing so for different reasons... don't you?

Their water baptism was their believer's baptism, was it not?

 

[Particular]

Their water baptism was their believer's baptism, was it not?

No. Their water baptism by John the Baptist was a baptism of repentance for Israel.
We see the disciples of John the Baptist in Acts who were not saved. They needed to know about Christ and his atonement for sin. John's baptism did nothing to save anyone.
Neither does believers water baptism save anyone. It's symbolic. It points to the effectual work of the Holy Spirit in immersing us into Christ.

 

[37818]

You are mixing things up. Just stick with the text. In Romans 6 we what we are immersed into. Guess what. It isn't water.

Where else is this teaching what Paul wrote taught this? Again it is my understanding the meaning of water baptism is for Christ's death. The Greek εις never means "in order to." Denotes a reason for or direction, into something, but not the cause.


The baptism in Romans 6:3.

 

[37818]

No. Their water baptism by John the Baptist was a baptism of repentance for Israel.
We see the disciples of John the Baptist in Acts who were not saved. They needed to know about Christ and his atonement for sin. John's baptism did nothing to save anyone.
Neither does believers water baptism save anyone. It's symbolic. It points to the effectual work of the Holy Spirit in immersing us into Christ.

I disagree with your no. Otherwise according to you, as I understand you, Jesus first disciples never had Christian baptism. And that would be just not true.

 

[Particular]

I disagree with your no. Otherwise according to you, as I understand you, Jesus first disciples never had Christian baptism. And that would be just not true.

The thief on the cross didn't have Christian baptism either.

The Bible (God) doesn't feel any need to describe the Apostles being baptized with water to become Christians.
Water baptism is not necessary for salvation.
Water baptism is necessary to show obedience to Christ.

 

[JoeT]

The thief on the cross didn't have Christian baptism either.

How do you know?

JoeT

 

[Particular]

How do you know?

JoeT

Well...I spose it could have been sprinkling...[emoji2414]

 

[JoeT]

Well...I spose it could have been sprinkling...[emoji2414]

It's an honest question, how do you know the thief was not baptized either after or prior to becoming becoming a condemned prisoner?

JoeT

 

[Particular]

It's an honest question, how do you know the thief was not baptized either after or prior to becoming becoming a condemned prisoner?

JoeT

Oh my goodness. All I can do is laugh at your suggestion.
Since the first believers baptism happened on Pentacost, we can rule out the thief.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 1:39 AM Pacific.

 

[37818]

Since the first believers baptism happened on Pentacost, we can rule out the thief.

The Apostle Paul, BTW, explained how John the Baptist's baptism was to be believer's baptism, Acts of the Apostles 19:4.