Revelation 12 - a Verse by Verse, and even phrase by phrase study

[Alofa Atu]

Who is the Dragon "wroth" with even now?

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

There are these two primary characteristics of the 'woman', of which the Dragon hates more than anything:

[1] those who obey God in His Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17; John 14:15)

[2] those who have the testimony of Jesus (Revelation 19:10)

These two things, are "to the law and to the testimony" (Isaiah 8:20). Their very existence is a rebuke to all who claim to follow Jesus Christ, and yet do not have these two things bearing witness to them, and because they do not have them, they have all manner of things to replace them in their religious experience; and for some it is noise and bedlam (which they call 'music'), and for others it is looking for 'feeling' deep down (though it also is not of God), and for others it is calling attention to themselves through some 'manifestation' of selfishness (which they call 'tongues'), and for others it is simply accusing of this or that church, and they thrive on accusations, and for others it is claiming to be specialists in heresy and cults, when they themselves often manifest those attributes and strangeness of ideology unfounded in the word (such as CARM, etc.) and so many other things. Yet, none of it, can equal to the things which God himself stated.

 

[robycop3]

John Gill (Baptist) disagrees with you.

"... 2. Another prophecy in Dan. XII. 1-3. respects the sound and personal coming of Christ; for his is meant by Michael, who is as God, as his name signifies, equal to him; the great prince, the prince of the kings of the earth, and the head of all principalities and powers ..." [Volume II. Book IV. Of the Second Coming of Christ; Page 395] - A Complete Body of Doctrinal and Practical Divinity

"... for as for Michael, the Archangel, he seems to be no other than Christ. ..." [Book III. Of the Internal Works of God; Of the Creation of Angels; Page 182] - https://archive.org/stream/completebodyofdo00gill#page/182/mode

"... [A Body Of Doctrinal Divinity; Book III. Chapter 2. Of The Creation Of Angels] for as for Michael, the Archangel, he seems to be no other than Christ, the Prince of angels, and Head of all principality and power; who is as God, like unto him, as his name signifies; yea, equal with him. … and the "Watchers", in Nebuchadnezzar's dream, thought to be angels by many, more probably are the divine Persons in the Godhead, the same with the Holy Ones, and the most High (Dan. 4:17,24). ... The more common name given to these celestial spirits, is that of angels; the word for which in the Hebrew language, and which is used of them in the Old Testament, signifies "messengers"; and so the uncreated Angel, Christ, is called the Angel, or Messenger of the covenant (Mal 3:1), and it comes from a root, preserved in the Ethiopic dialect, which signifies to "send," [2] because these spirits have been often sent with messages and dispatches to the children of men: the word "angels" we use, comes from a Greek word, [3] which signifies the same; and are so called, from their being sent on, and bringing messages, which they declare, publish, and proclaim. …

… [2] dal “legavit, misit nuncium”, Ludolf. Lexic. Ethiop. p. 19. vid. Hottinger. Smegma Oriental. l. 1. c. 5. p. 88.

[3] aggellw “nuntio, nuntium affero”, Scapula." [A Body Of Doctrinal Divinity; Book III. Chapter 2. Of The Creation Of Angels] - Doctrinal Divinity - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Doctrinal Divinity

http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Doctrinal Divinity/Book 3/book3 02.htm

Daniel 12:1:

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, &c. The Archangel, who has all the angels of heaven under him, and at his command, the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ; who is as God, as the name signifies, truly and really God, and equal in nature, power, and glory, to his divine Father. ..." [John Gill's Exposition Of The Bible; Daniel 12:1] - Daniel 12 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

Jude 9:

"Yet Michael the archangel, &c. By whom is meant, not a created angel, but an eternal one, the Lord Jesus Christ; as appears from his name Michael, which signifies, "who is as God": and who is as God, or like unto him, but the Son of God, who is equal with God? and from his character as the archangel, or Prince of angels, for Christ is the head of all principality and power; and from what is elsewhere said of Michael, as that he is the great Prince, and on the side of the people of God, and to have angels under him, and at his command, Dan. 10:21, 12:1; Revelation 12:7. So Philo the Jew {o} calls the most ancient Word, firstborn of God, the archangel. ..." [John Gill's Exposition Of The Bible; Jude verse 9] - Jude 1 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

Revelation 12:7:

"Michael and his angels fought against the dragon: by whom is meant not a created angel, with whom his name does not agree, it signifying "who is as God"; nor does it appear that there is anyone created angel that presides over the rest, and has them at his command. ..." [John Gill's Exposition Of The Bible; Revelation 12:7] - Revelation 12 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

Gill was simply WRONG. Michael is NOT Jesus, as we showed from Scripture.

 

[robycop3]

In fact, many learned and godly men and women, from all over history, who have deeply and prayerfully studied their Bible, and even translated Bibles, wrote lexicons, dictionaries, studied many languages, disagree with you. The ones who agree with you is the Roman Catholic Church, hence the point of my previous comment on the subject of this forum.

Melito of Sardis (wrote AD 165 – AD 175, died c. AD 180 – Jesus is “among the angels, archangel”

Charles Buck (AD 1771 – AD 11 Aug 1815) Jesus is called “Angel” and “Archangel”.

John Butterworth, minister (born AD 1727- died AD 1803) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Thomas Taylor (AD 15 May 1758 – AD 1 November 1835) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Patrick Fairbairn (AD 28 January 1805 – AD 6 August 1874) – Jesus is “Michael”.

William Baxter Godbey (AD June 3, 1833 - AD September 12, 1920) cites Dr. Clarke that Jesus is “Michael”.

Matthew Pool[e] – (AD 1624 – AD 1679) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Sir William Smith (AD 20 May 1813 – AD 7 October 1893) – Jesus is “Michael” and cites others Luther, Hengstenberg, etc.

Thomas Coke (AD 9 September 1747 – AD 2 May 1814) – Jesus is “Michael”.

John Guyse (AD 1680 - AD 1761) – Jesus is “Michael”, and called “Angel”, etc

Elhanan Winchester (AD 1751 in Brookline, Massachusetts – AD April 18, 1797) – Jesus is “Michael”.

George Sale (AD 1697, Canterbury, Kent, England – AD 1736, London, England) ; George Psalmanazar (AD 1679? - AD 1763),; Archibald Bower (AD 17 January 1686 – AD 3 September 1766) ; George D. Shelvocke (baptised AD 1 April 1675 - AD 30 November 1742) ; John Campbell (AD 1708 - AD 1775); John Swinton (AD 1703 - AD 1777) – Jesus is “Michael”.

The Church of England Magazine. Under the superintendence of the clergymen of the United Church of England and Ireland. Vol. IV. No. 85; January 6, 1838. By James Burns. – Jesus is “Michael”.

Robert Hawker (AD 1753 – AD 1827) – Jesus is “Michael” and “Archangel”.

Samuel Horsley (AD 15 September 1733 – AD 4 October 1806) – Jesus is “Michael”.

The London Encyclopedia, or Universal Dictionary … 1839. – Jesus is “Michael”.

The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible; Volume 4; M-P, Revised, Full-Color Edition; - cites that many Protestants, Hengstenberg, etc that Jesus is “Michael”.

Hermann Witsius (Herman Wits or in Latin Hermannus Witsius) (AD 12 February 1636 – AD 22 October 1708) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Reinerus Vogelsangius (AD 1610 - AD 1679) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Johannes Cloppenburg (AD 1592 - AD 1652) - Jesus is Michael the “Angel of the Lord”.

Ralph Griffiths (AD c.1720 – AD September 28, 1803) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Campegius Vitringa Sr., or Kempe Vitringa[1] (born at Leeuwarden, May 16, 1659; died at Franeker, March 31, 1722) – Jesus is “Michael” the “Archangel”.

Martin Luther (AD 10 November 1483 – AD 18 February 1546) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Philipp Melanchthon (AD 16 February 1497 – AD 19 April 1560) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Johann Wigand (ca. AD 1523 - AD 21 October 1587) – Jesus is “Michael”.

David Chytraeus or Chyträus (26 February 1530, Ingelfingen – 25 June 1600, Rostock) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Giovanni Diodati or Deodati (AD 6 June 1576 – AD 3 October 1649) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Andrew Willet (AD 1562 – AD 4 December 1621) - Jesus is “Michael”.

William Miller (AD February 15, 1782 – AD December 20, 1849) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Carl L. Beckwith, - Jesus is “Michael”.

Robert W. Bertram (AD 27 March 1921 - AD 13 March 2003) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Dr. Frances N. Lee (AD 1934 - AD Friday 23rd December, 2011) - - Jesus is “Michael”.

David Harold Chilton (AD 1951 – AD 1997) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Milton Spenser Terry (AD 1840 - AD 1914) - Jesus is “Michael”.

George Whitefield - December 27 [O.S. December 16] 1714 – September 30, 1770) speaks by symbol, Jesus is our “Michael”.

James Petigru Boyce (AD 1827 – AD 1888) citing John Pye-Smith, Jesus is “probably” “Michael”.

The Rev Dr John Pye-Smith FRS, FGS (AD 25 May 1774 - AD 5 February 1851) - Jesus is “probably” “Michael”.

Christmas Evans (AD 25 December 1766 – AD 19 July 1838) – Jesus is “Michael”.

The Christian Gleaner and Domestic Magazine for 1825, Volume II; London; published by B. J. Holdsworth, 18, St. Paul's Churchyard. – Jesus is “Michael”.

Carl Ferdinand Wilhelm Walther (AD October 25, 1811 – AD May 7, 1887) - Jesus is “Michael”.

John Gill (AD 23 November 1697 – AD 14 October 1771) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Charles Spurgeon (AD 9 June 1834 – AD 31 January 1892) Jesus is the “True Michael”.

Matthew Henry (AD 18 October 1662 – AD 22 June 1714) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Thomas Adams (AD 1583 – AD 1653) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Heinrich [Henry] Bullinger (AD 18 July 1504 – AD 17 September 1575) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Isaac Watts (AD 17 July 1674 – AD 25 November 1748) - Jesus is “Michael”.

William Kinkade (AD 22nd Sept. 1783 - AD 20th Sept. 1832) [became Arian later; Heresy] - Jesus is “Michael”.

Jonathan Edwards (AD October 5, 1703 – AD March 22, 1758) - Jesus is “Michael”.

1560/1599 Geneva Study Bible- Jesus is “Michael”.

John [Jean] Calvin (born Jehan Cauvin: AD 10 July 1509 – AD 27 May 1564) - Jesus is “Michael” and does not disagree with others who see the same.

Francois Du Jon aka Franciscus Junius (born François du Jon, AD 1 May 1545 – AD 13 October 1602) - Jesus is “Michael”.

John Wesley (AD 28 June [O.S. 17 June] 1703 – AD 2 March 1791) - Jesus is “Michael”.

John Brown of Haddington (AD 1722 – AD 19 June 1787) - Jesus is “Michael”.

James Wood (AD 1751 – AD 1840) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Ernst Wilhelm Theodor Herrmann Hengstenberg (AD October 20, 1802, Fröndenberg – AD May 28, 1869, Berlin- Jesus is “Michael”.

Wikipedia, The Online Encyclopedia – Michael (Archangel); subsection - “Protestant Views” – cites John A. Lees, and Hengstenberg, Jesus is “Michael”.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, comment on section “Michael” by John A. Lees. - Jesus is “Michael”.

John Bunyan (AD 28 November 1628 – AD 31 August 1688) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Henry Ainsworth (AD 1571 – AD 1622) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Thomas Watson (c. AD 1620 – AD 1686) - Jesus is “Michael”.

James Glasgow D.D. (AD 27 May 1805 – AD 1890 ) - Jesus is “Michael”.

James Hastings (AD 1852 – AD 1922) and George Cunninghame Monteath Douglas (AD 1826 – AD 1904- Jesus is “Michael”.

Thomas Hobbes Scott (17 April 1783 – 1 January 1860) - Jesus may indeed be “Michael” as “many” others say.

Hezekiah Holland (born ca. AD 1617, living AD 1660) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Adam Clarke (AD 1760 or AD 1762 – AD 1832) - Jesus is “Michael”.

George Balderston Kidd (Cottingham, near Hull, AD 28 July 1794 – AD 1852) - Jesus is “Michael”.

James Durham (AD 1622 – AD 1658) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Bryce Johnston (AD 1747 - AD 1805) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Thomas Haweis (AD 1 January 1734 - AD February 11, 1820) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Abingdon Bible Commentary, 1929; Editor, Edwin Lewis (AD 1881 – AD 1959) was an American Methodist theologian primarily associated with Drew University in New Jersey. Others involved - Frederick Carl Eiselen; David G. Downey. - Jesus is “Michael”.

Johann [John] Peter Lange (AD 10 April 1802 in Sonneborn (now a part of Wuppertal) – AD 9 July 1884), and Elijah Richard Craven (AD Mar. 28 1824, in Washington D.C. - AD Jan. 5 1908, in Philadelphia, Pa) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Thomas Robinson (AD 1813/14 - AD 1890) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Johann Friedrich Haug ((AD * 1680, AD † 18. May 1753) and The Berlenburger Bibel [aka 'Berleb. Bible', 'Berleburger Bibel', etc.] is in the years AD 1726 - AD 1742) - Jesus is “Michael”.

They are, or were, WRONG, simple as THAT ! Jesus is the Son of God, and is also God, as are His Father & the Holy Spirit; Michael is a created archangel.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Gill was simply WRONG. Michael is NOT Jesus, as we showed from Scripture.

You do realize that there are many other Baptists that taught the same? Not just John Gill.

Elhanan Winchester was a Baptist.

"... [Page 198] but Michael the great prince shall stand up at that time, whom I take to mean in this place, him, who is as God, the glorious Messiah, the manifested JEHOVAH, who standeth for the children of Israel, as their deliverer; shall then deliver them by bringing to an end that haughty power that shall distress them ... See Dan. XI. 44, 45. XII. 1-4. and 13 ver. ..." [Page 198] - A course of lectures, on the prophecies that remain to be fulfilled : delivered in the borough of Southwark, as also at the chapel in Glass-house yard, in the years MDCCLXXXVII, IX, XC​

"... [Page 199] had not Joshua, that greatest of all generals, (and the greatest figure of the conquering Michael that ever existed) gone out against them. ..." [Page 199] - A course of lectures, on the prophecies that remain to be fulfilled : delivered in the borough of Southwark, as also at the chapel in Glass-house yard, in the years MDCCLXXXVII, IX, XC​

William Miller, was also a Baptist. He taught the same. (but I can guess what you will say about this man of God)

"... [Page 41; Internally Page 83] I shall now examine the remainder of Gabriel's message contained in Daniel XII. 1, "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people." Michael in this passage must mean Christ, he is the great Prince, and Prince of princes. ... There are two things for which Christ stands up for his people to accomplish ... Surely this must be by the power of Michael, the great Prince of the Covenant. ..." [Page 41; Internally Page 83] - https://archive.org/stream/WilliamMillerEvidenceFromScriptureAndHistoryOfTheSecondComingOf/Miller evidenceFromScriptureAndHistory secondComingOfChristAboutYear1843 1836#page/n41/mode/1up
​

James Petigru Boyce (AD 1827 – AD 1888) served as a Southern Baptist pastor, theologian, author, and seminary professor.

"... [Page 196] ... Michael is probably the Messiah.

J. Pye Smith, First Lines, p. 331 ..." [Page 196] - Abstract of systematic theology​

"[Page 294] MALACHI Chap. 3:1. Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me : and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger (angel) of the covenant, whom ye delight in : behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

1. The Lord is to come suddenly to his temple.
2. He is the angel of the covenant." [Page 294] - Abstract of systematic theology​

Christmas Evans, aka "the Bunyan of Wales":

[Page 183] Our Prince has conquered our adversaries. His name is Michael, the power of God. He is the mighty prince that stood up on behalf of his people, ..." [Pages 182-183] - https://archive.org/stream/MN40187ucmf 5#page/n207/mode/1up
https://archive.org/stream/MN40187ucmf 5#page/n208/mode/1up​

Charles Spurgeon:

"… [Page 554] Let the Lord Jesus Christ be for ever endeared to us, for through Him we are made to sit in heavenly places far above principalities and powers. He it is whose camp is round about them that fear Him; He is the true Michael whose foot is upon the dragon. All hail, Jesus! thou Angel of Jehovah’s presence, to Thee this family offers its morning vows." [Page 554] - Morning and Evening Classic Kjv Edition

See also Charles Spurgeon; Morning by Morning; or, Daily Readings for the Family or the Closet; New York and Sheldon Company 498 and 500 Broadway. 1866 [Page 227] Morning by Morning

Morning & Evening: Morning Devo, Oct. 3rd​

Charles Spurgeon; Evening By Evening; November 30 on Revelation 12:7; copyright 2005 by Bridge-Logos.

"… [Page 364] Michael will always fight; his holy soul is vexed with sin, and will not endure it. Jesus will always be the dragon’s foe, and that not in a quiet sense, but actively, vigorously, with full determination to exterminate evil. ..." [Page 364] - Evening by Evening

Morning and Evening 9/11 AM​

Charles Spurgeon; THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB, THE CONQUERING WEAPON NO. 2043 DELIVERED ON LORD’S DAY; MORNING, SEPTEMBER 9, 1888, BY C. H. SPURGEON, AT THE METROPOLITAN TABERNACLE, NEWINGTON.

"By faith we rise into the conquering place this day. In the heavenlies we triumph, as also in every place. We rejoice in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Michael of the angels, the Redeemer of men. For by Him we see Satan cast out and all the powers of evil hurled from their places of power and eminence." - http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols34-36/chs2043.pdf

See also Charles Spurgeon, The Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, Volume 34; Page 510 - The Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit​

Charles Spurgeon; Spurgeon's Sermon on Angels; page 59, the Angelic Life on Earth (November 22, 1868)

"... Be it ours to imitate the angels in fighting a good fight while we are here. We read that Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels, and the dragon was cast down. The fight is going on every day. Michael is the Lord Jesus, the only Archangel. We, like Him, and under Him, must stand as champions for the truth, never to surrender, but prepared to suffer, even to blood, striving against sin. ...” - 842. The Angelic Life

Spurgeon's Sermons on Angels​

John Bunyan:

"… [Page 37] So when the battle was over, Christian said, I will here give thanks to him that hath delivered me out of the mouth of the lion, to him that did help me against Apollyon. And so he did, saying,

“Great Beelzebub, the captain of this fiend,
Designed my ruin; therefore to this end
He sent him harness’d out; and he, with rage
That hellish was, did fiercely me engage:
But blessed Michael helped me, and I,
By dint of sword, did quickly make him fly:
Therefore to Him let me give lasting praise,
And thank and bless his holy name always.”" [Page 37] - http://bitflow.dyndns.org/english/JohnBunyan/The Pilgrims Progress.pdf
​

or see also here [Page 76] - http://www.bunyanministries.org/books/pp full text.pdf
or see also here [Pages 57-58] - John Bunyan's The pilgrim's progress;
John Bunyan's The pilgrim's progress;
​

The Anabaptists:

The Anabaptists and their Stepchildren

"... to that great King of men and divine Leader of angels, the mighty Archangel Jesus ..." - http://www.reformed.org/sacramentology/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/sacramentology/lee/anab 008.html
​

Were these all misinformed, unstudied, unlearned, unprayerful, ungodly heretics who boo-boo'ed (sic)? Do you realize what that would mean for the "Baptists" on the whole?

 

[Alofa Atu]

They are, or were, WRONG, simple as THAT !

Really? All of them? All of their works showing from the scripture, line upon line?

Jesus is the Son of God, and is also God

Not in question. Straw Man, Red Herring. All* those whom I cited, already acknowledge that, as do I.

, as are His Father & the Holy Spirit

Yes, the Father is God, see John 1:1-18. So also the Holy Ghost/Spirit, as per Acts 5, and many other places, such as Colossians 2:2-3, etc. Not in question. Straw Man, Red Herring. All* those whom I cited, already acknowledge that, as do I.

; Michael is a created archangel.

You state this, but nowhere demonstrate this.

Instead of acknowledging your error and mal-informed belief, you claim all others are in error, inspite of the given facts. This is why it is not a matter of evidence or facts or intelligence, but one of the heart.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Overcoming:

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

The death:

Gal_2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Mat_16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mar_8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mar_10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Luk_9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Heb_9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

Php_2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Psa_116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Revelation 12 is the central symbolic picture of the conflict between Truth and Error, Righteousness and Sin, Good and Evil.

 

[robycop3]

Really? All of them? All of their works showing from the scripture, line upon line?

Not in question. Straw Man, Red Herring. All* those whom I cited, already acknowledge that, as do I.

Yes, the Father is God, see John 1:1-18. So also the Holy Ghost/Spirit, as per Acts 5, and many other places, such as Colossians 2:2-3, etc. Not in question. Straw Man, Red Herring. All* those whom I cited, already acknowledge that, as do I.

You state this, but nowhere demonstrate this.

Instead of acknowledging your error and mal-informed belief, you claim all others are in error, inspite of the given facts. This is why it is not a matter of evidence or facts or intelligence, but one of the heart.

You're all WRONG, that simple.

You were shown Scripture proving Michael aint Jesus. And I believe Scripture over any number of men. It's simply more SDA garbage that some Baptists mistakenly fell for.

And your citing of that quack Miller shows your true colors.

 

[Alofa Atu]

... You were shown Scripture proving Michael aint Jesus. ...

Which one's, and where please? I have not seen such scriptures posted yet. I do not jest. I do not make light of your claim, nor position, as I had been there some time ago. It took me awhile in God's grace and prayerful study, and I do not force anyone to believe, but simply present the evidence given me of God. Simply point me to your objections, and reasons. Thank you robycop3. My heart is filled with the love of God for you, even now, and so I pray that, even if you do not yet believe as I do, I only ask for your consideration and ear to listen to what I have to say in regards your objections and reasons from scripture alone.

 

[Alofa Atu]

... You were shown Scripture proving Michael aint Jesus. ...

robycop3, I am still awaiting for you to show where you placed such "Scripture". I haven't seen it yet. Place them (exact Scripture) in this thread, thank you.

 

[Alofa Atu]

robycop3, I am still awaiting for you to show where you placed such "Scripture". I haven't seen it yet. Place them (exact Scripture) in this thread, thank you.

Did you desire to move on to another subject robycop3? I was still hoping you would show me, so that we could address the texts.

 

[Alofa Atu]

robycop3, who is this in the following verses:

Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[Alofa Atu]

robycop3, who is this in the following verses:

Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Act_6:10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.

Luk_22:68 And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Looking at Revelation 12:1, and "the woman", being "in Heaven", we see that God fulfilled His promise of bringing in the peoples Israel to the promised land, and therefore, this is evidence for our own Hope, for the promise that God has for us, that He will bring those who follow Him into the Heavenly Canaan. This too, is also, a sign of the victory over the enemies of the land, and God grants the same victory to us, over all the enemies (pride, rebellion, sin, selfishness, etc) that have dwelled in the heart of wickedness. God will cause the light of Heaven to shine within. God creates in us the new heart, for the new land.

 

[Oseas3]

Looking at Revelation 12:1, and "the woman", being "in Heaven", we see that God fulfilled His promise of bringing in the peoples Israel to the promised land, and therefore, this is evidence for our own Hope, for the promise that God has for us, that He will bring those who follow Him into the Heavenly Canaan. This too, is also, a sign of the victory over the enemies of the land, and God grants the same victory to us, over all the enemies (pride, rebellion, sin, selfishness, etc) that have dwelled in the heart of wickedness. God will cause the light of Heaven to shine within. God creates in us the new heart, for the new land.

JESUS left very clear, saying: "the Gospel of God's kingdom will be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations, and then the end comes, He warned that "the lord (small letter) of the servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."Matt.24:v.50-51

1Thessalonians 4:15-18
15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (capital letter) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself(capital letter)shall descend from heaven with a shout (Matthew 25:v.6), with the voice of the archangel (Michael who is a lord also with small letter), and with the trump of God(God's trump is with Michael): and the dead in Christ shall rise first (Daniel 12:v.1-3):
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord(JESUS) in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The FIRST coming of the LORD was with the voice that cried in the wilderness -John the Baptist who was born by prophecy, that is by the power of the Word of God-. The Word is God. Now, the Lord will descend with the voice of the archangel - his name is Michael.

Isaiah prophesied, saying:60:v.8 - Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?

Revelation 12:v.14 And to the woman were given TWO WINGS of a great eagle, that she might FLY into the wilderness, into her place(GOD'S KINGDOM), where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent (the Red Dragon with his 7 heads, and 10 horns, and a terrible and devilish TAIL)

Rev. 11:v.15 - The kingdoms of THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

From Genesis to Revelation Michael is the one who executes Wars, deliverances, Judgments in direct combat with Satan. It is he who will lay hold the Dragon, and bind him, and will throw down him into the bottomless pit.

The voice of the archangel -Michael- is a message, and God's trump is with Michael. The message is a trumpet, the problem is whether the voice or the message of the messenger is believed by the listeners. If the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? What battle? Rev.12:v.7 and 16:v.13-16
Michael will lay hold on the Dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and will bind him a thousand years, and will cast him into the bottomless pit, he will shut him up and will set a seal upon him, that the Devil deceives the nations no more. This is wonderful. Rev.20:v.1-3.

But how could Michael stand up and make war -Revelation 12:v.7- and judging, if he not born first(Rev.12:v.1-2&5), just as Jesus and John the Baptist were born? Impossible of course. You see, it's very difficult in the midst of so much confusion to speak of the true revelation that God's Word brings unto us. Who is going to believe the true revelation that is within everyone's reach, living in this spiritual hostile environment full of speculation, and presumption, and conjectures, and apostasies, and cunningly devised fables, and so on? This end-of-days moment and end of the second covenant, is very complicated unto us to understand and preaching what will really happen because the earth is infested with tares.

Rev. 2:v.26-29
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[robycop3]

The word "angel" simply means 'messenger' or 'ambassador', 'one sent with a message', and so Lucifer being in said position, as Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, etc portray, makes him an 'archangel' as Jude 1:6 also relates, having abandoned his arch office., see also Rev. 9:11, the 'angel' of the bottomless pit, ultimately Satan, though not only, and see also 2 Corinthians 11:4 and 1 Corinthians 6:3, for even satan himself shall be judged by the saints. 2 Peter 2:4 refers to Lucifer's own fall.

I don't really have any quarrel with that.

He was indeed the highest created being, according to the texts already cited. True.

Agreed.

That is nowhere in scripture. If you refer to Daniel, it states the reverse, in that it was Gabriel who needed the assistance from Michael (Uncreated angel of the LORD (Father), Son of God) to overcome the devil (Daniel 10:13). In Daniel 11:1, it is chiastically sealed in that Gabriel stood to confirm and strengthen Darius the Mede ("him").

[A1] Also I (Gabriel; chapter 10)
[B1] in the first year
[C1] of Darius the Mede
[A2] even I (Gabriel, chapter 10)
[B2] stood to confirm and strenthen him [Darius the Mede]
[C2] (implied) {in the first year; Daniel 6:1, 9:1}

I see you're back to that same "Michael is Jesus" garbage of Mrs. white, your guru.

 

[robycop3]

satan is a fallen angel. A cherubim . And the cherubim are not the highest created beings . The Word created Wisdom before all else.Lucifer was cast out of heaven for his rejection of Wisdom. All creation was finished off with wisdom. he being full of himself because of his beauty , rebelled. And scripture reveals that he was adorned in wisdom PRIOR to his rebellion.

Wisdom was given more authority than any other creature and is the Lord's right hand lady. She is why Eve (Woman)was created. She is apportioned to man according to his gifts. I am going to blow up the alofa atu leaven and when I am done you will see how you too have had wisdom removed from you.
Sirach 1:4 4 Wisdom was created before all other things, and prudent understanding from eternity.

I know , I know the Protestants do not acknowledge Sirach , Blah , Blah ,Blah. It is reiterated in Proverbs
Proverbs 8:
22The LORD created me as His first course,

before His works of old.

23From everlasting I was established,

from the beginning, before the earth began.

24When there were no watery depths, I was brought forth,

when no springs were overflowing with water.

25Before the mountains were settled,

before the hills, I was brought forth,

26before He made the land or fields,

or any of the dust of the earth.

27I was there when He established the heavens,

when He inscribed the horizon on the face of the deep,

28when He established the clouds above,

when the fountains of the deep gushed forth,

29when He set a boundary for the sea,

so that the waters would not surpass His command,

when He marked out the foundations of the earth.

30Then I was a skilled craftsman at His side,

and His delight day by day,

rejoicing always in His presence.

31I was rejoicing in His whole world,

delighting together in the sons of men.

32Now therefore, my sons, listen to me,

for blessed are those who keep my ways.

33Listen to instruction and be wise;

do not ignore it.

34Blessed is the man who listens to me,

watching daily at my doors,

waiting at the posts of my doorway.

35For whoever finds me finds life

and obtains the favor of the LORD;

36but he who fails to find me harms himself;

all who hate me love death.”
Sirach is saying the same thing as in Proverbs.
From Sirach Chp1
God’s Gift of Wisdom*
1All wisdom* is from the Lord

and remains with him forever.a

2The sands of the sea, the drops of rain,

the days of eternity—who can count them?

3Heaven’s height, earth’s extent,

the abyss and wisdom—who can explore them?

4Before all other things wisdom was created;

and prudent understanding, from eternity.†

6The root of wisdom—to whom has it been revealed?

Her subtleties—who knows them?† b

8* There is but one, wise and truly awesome,

seated upon his throne—the Lord.

9It is he who created her,

saw her and measured her,c

Poured her forth upon all his works,

10upon every living thing according to his bounty,

lavished her upon those who love him.

OF COURSE we Christians don't acknowledge Sirach because it's man-made & phony as a Chevy F-150.

 

[robycop3]

Again, No. With the Father, in Eternity, was Wisdom:

"possessed [me]" - Proverbs 8:22 KJB, H7069

קנה ; qânâh

Total KJB Occurrences: 86

buy, 24

bought, 21

get, 9

purchased, 5

buyer, 3

getteth, 3

got, 3

possessed, 3

buyest, 2

possessor, 2

attain, 1

cattle, 1

getting, 1

gotten, 1

jealousy, 1

keep, 1

owner, 1

possessors, 1

recover, 1

redeemed, 1

verily, 1

The subject, “me”, of that which is “possessed” of “the LORD” is “wisdom” [Proverbs 8:1,11,12,14 KJB].

Proverbs 3:19 KJB - The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.​

The text of Proverbs 3:19 KJB, is in perfect parallel with Proverbs 8:22,30 KJB, in that the Father “by Jesus” made all things:

1 Corinthians 8:6 KJB - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2 Corinthians 5:8 KJB - And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Ephesians 3:9 KJB - And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 KJB - The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:10 KJB - He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Hebrews 1:1 KJB - God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hebrews 1:2 KJB - Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hebrews 1:3 KJB - Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Colossians 1:15 KJB - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Colossians 1:17 KJB - And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Colossians 1:19 KJB - For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;​

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB eliminates the meanings/uses of “buy”, “bought”, “get”, “purchased”, “buyer”, “getteth”, “got”, “buyest”, “attain”, “cattle” [property], “getting” [obtain, possess], “gotten” [obtained, received [a birth, Cain from Eve]], “jealousy”, “recover” [buy/purchase back at cost to oneself], “redeemed” [buy/purchase back at cost to oneself], “verily [buy]” [truly purchase at dear sacrificial cost], since the words “in the beginning of his way” [Proverbs 8:22 KJB], “I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning” [Proverbs 8:23 KJB], “I was there” [Proverbs 8:27 KJB], “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB], except it be connected to the redemption plan as it is in Christ Jesus, or to the effect that the Father exchanged words with the Son, and the Son believed the Father, or an interchange, exchange of ideas [like as merchandising], the Father sharing His will with the Son, and the Son rejoicing in that will.

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “possessed me” carries with it the meanings of “possessor”, “possessors”, which is to intimately know through and through [such as the word “possession” is understood, such that the Holy Ghost/Spirit should possess the whole heart, lest devils occupy/possess it], or to completely occupy or dwell in fully [such as to “possess” the land/earth, and the heart is the like unto the soil], to be LORD or Master of [such as a Father unto a Son], to own [to belong to someone's person], to have all or the whole entirety of something such as the whole mind/heart/spirit, for instance:

Psalms 139:13 KJB - For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

Joshua 21:43 KJB - And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

Jeremiah 32:23 - And they came in, and possessed it; but they obeyed not thy voice, neither walked in thy law; they have done nothing of all that thou commandedst them to do: therefore thou hast caused all this evil to come upon them:

John 14:10 KJB - Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 14:11 KJB - Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.​

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “possessed me” carries with it the meanings of “keep” [raise cattle, like as to raise a sheep, like as a Lamb, the Lamb of God in the Father's care], “owner” [one who has a purchased possession, such as a cow or Lamb]. The image then is of a tender compassionate Father caring for His Son, holding the Son in His arms, close to His bosom [as Jesus had done with John], cherishing the relationship as Father to Son:

Genesis 22:8 KJB - And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

John 1:29 KJB - The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 1:36 KJB - And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

1 Peter 1:19 KJB - But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

2 Samuel 12:3 KJB - But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.​

You're relying too much upon the archaic language of the KJV(NOT "KJB") as meaning the same things in MODERN English as it meant then.

 

[Alofa Atu]

You're relying too much upon the archaic language of the KJV....

Not at all. The KJB uses some of the very words as found in so-called 'modern;' versions, notice:

Archaic words? You supposedly mean like these?

abode kernels ancients laden aright lance asunder lusty away with mantle beckon mattock begotten naught bier nurtured bewitched odious bowels osprey calved pangs celestial phylacteries coney plowshare confections rend convince respite cormorant rushes decked soothsayer deride spoil distill suckling dung temperate effect tetrarch estate trafficked forevermore unto fowl usury girdle vaunt hallowed vestments haunt vex heresies wanton infamy yokefellow inasmuch insatiable jeopardy

abase deride heresies pipes temperate abated didst hinds plowshare tenons abode distill importune presbytery teraphim adjure doest impotent principalities tetrarch alms dost inasmuch putrefaction thee ancient doth issue raiment thereon apparel dung jeopardy rampart thine aright effect know ravening thou art eminent laden remission thy asunder engines laud rend timbrel away with estate layer reprobate trafficked backbiting evermore lightness requite travail beget familiar litters riot unto beseech feigned lordly rushes usury bewail fetch lunatic seemly vagabond bewitched firstlings lusty seest valor bondwomen fleshhook mail seethe vaunt bowels footmen maintenance shalt venture breeches forbearance mammon sherd verily brimstone fowl mantle shod vermillion calves fuller maranatha shouldst vex canst gaiety mattock shouldest virtue cleave garners milch smith wanton comely gavest mill solace warp constrains girdle nether soothsayer wayfarers cormorant graven nurtured sore whence couches gross odious speakest wherewith covert guile offscouring stay woof crib handmaid pangs strait wrought dainty harrow paramours suckling yea dearth hast perdition swaddling yonder deck haunt phylacteries tares

abase daubed henceforth principality vestments abode dayspring heresies prognostication vex alms debased immutable psaltery virtue amiss decks impudent quarter visage anise deride inasmuch rampart wanton apparel dispensation issue rid warp aright disquiet jeopardy rifled wayfaring austere distill jot riotous whence away with dung know rushes whereupon backbiters effect laden satiate whet beckoned epistle laud shamefaced winebibber beggarly eventide laver shod woof begot evermore litters smith wrought bemoan familiar lordly soothsayer yea beseech fan lusty spoil yonder bewail feigned mail straits bewitched fetch mammon suckling bittern flanks mantle tares bondwomen flay mattock temperate brimstone footmen mill tenons calves forbearance mite terrestrial carnal foursquare nativity tetrarch celestial fowl offend therein circumspect fuller offscouring timbrel cloven gad omnipotent tittle comeliness godhead or ever unto concourses graven pangs usury confederacy greyhound paramours vagabond convince gross phylacteries valor covert hallowed pipes vehement crib haunts plowshare verity dainties hemlock potentate vermillion

abase disquieted henceforth ravening abate dissembles hoarfrost remission abode distill impudent rend adjuration dromedaries inasmuch riotous alms dung isles rushes apparel effect know sacrilege assuaged enjoined laden satiate asunder ensign lance seethe augment ensues laud sherd away with estate laver sloth backbiting eventide litters smith beget evermore lusty solace beggarly execration mail soothsayer bemoan familiar maintenance stay beseech firmament mantle straits bewail firstling mattock stripling bewitched flagon milch suppliants bier flay mill surfeit bowels footmen naught swaddling calving forbear noontide temperate cleft foursquare obeisance teraphim clemency fowl oblation thereupon comely fuller odious thrice coneys gad or ever timbrel constrains garner pangs trafficked cormorant goodly paramours unshod covert gross perdition crib guile phylacteries dainty hallowed pipes debased haltingly plowshare decked harrow pound delectable haunt rampart​

None of those are being cited from the King James BIble [though they exist therein].

Row 1 is the NIV 1973.

Row 2 is the NASB [from revised ASV 1901].

Row 3 is the NKJV 1982.

Row 4 is the NRSV 1999 ["milch"].
​

What was that argument from "archaic" again? Tell me please ...

 

[robycop3]

Not at all. The KJB uses some of the very words as found in so-called 'modern;' versions, notice:

Archaic words? You supposedly mean like these?

abode kernels ancients laden aright lance asunder lusty away with mantle beckon mattock begotten naught bier nurtured bewitched odious bowels osprey calved pangs celestial phylacteries coney plowshare confections rend convince respite cormorant rushes decked soothsayer deride spoil distill suckling dung temperate effect tetrarch estate trafficked forevermore unto fowl usury girdle vaunt hallowed vestments haunt vex heresies wanton infamy yokefellow inasmuch insatiable jeopardy

abase deride heresies pipes temperate abated didst hinds plowshare tenons abode distill importune presbytery teraphim adjure doest impotent principalities tetrarch alms dost inasmuch putrefaction thee ancient doth issue raiment thereon apparel dung jeopardy rampart thine aright effect know ravening thou art eminent laden remission thy asunder engines laud rend timbrel away with estate layer reprobate trafficked backbiting evermore lightness requite travail beget familiar litters riot unto beseech feigned lordly rushes usury bewail fetch lunatic seemly vagabond bewitched firstlings lusty seest valor bondwomen fleshhook mail seethe vaunt bowels footmen maintenance shalt venture breeches forbearance mammon sherd verily brimstone fowl mantle shod vermillion calves fuller maranatha shouldst vex canst gaiety mattock shouldest virtue cleave garners milch smith wanton comely gavest mill solace warp constrains girdle nether soothsayer wayfarers cormorant graven nurtured sore whence couches gross odious speakest wherewith covert guile offscouring stay woof crib handmaid pangs strait wrought dainty harrow paramours suckling yea dearth hast perdition swaddling yonder deck haunt phylacteries tares

abase daubed henceforth principality vestments abode dayspring heresies prognostication vex alms debased immutable psaltery virtue amiss decks impudent quarter visage anise deride inasmuch rampart wanton apparel dispensation issue rid warp aright disquiet jeopardy rifled wayfaring austere distill jot riotous whence away with dung know rushes whereupon backbiters effect laden satiate whet beckoned epistle laud shamefaced winebibber beggarly eventide laver shod woof begot evermore litters smith wrought bemoan familiar lordly soothsayer yea beseech fan lusty spoil yonder bewail feigned mail straits bewitched fetch mammon suckling bittern flanks mantle tares bondwomen flay mattock temperate brimstone footmen mill tenons calves forbearance mite terrestrial carnal foursquare nativity tetrarch celestial fowl offend therein circumspect fuller offscouring timbrel cloven gad omnipotent tittle comeliness godhead or ever unto concourses graven pangs usury confederacy greyhound paramours vagabond convince gross phylacteries valor covert hallowed pipes vehement crib haunts plowshare verity dainties hemlock potentate vermillion

abase disquieted henceforth ravening abate dissembles hoarfrost remission abode distill impudent rend adjuration dromedaries inasmuch riotous alms dung isles rushes apparel effect know sacrilege assuaged enjoined laden satiate asunder ensign lance seethe augment ensues laud sherd away with estate laver sloth backbiting eventide litters smith beget evermore lusty solace beggarly execration mail soothsayer bemoan familiar maintenance stay beseech firmament mantle straits bewail firstling mattock stripling bewitched flagon milch suppliants bier flay mill surfeit bowels footmen naught swaddling calving forbear noontide temperate cleft foursquare obeisance teraphim clemency fowl oblation thereupon comely fuller odious thrice coneys gad or ever timbrel constrains garner pangs trafficked cormorant goodly paramours unshod covert gross perdition crib guile phylacteries dainty hallowed pipes debased haltingly plowshare decked harrow pound delectable haunt rampart​

None of those are being cited from the King James BIble [though they exist therein].

Row 1 is the NIV 1973.

Row 2 is the NASB [from revised ASV 1901].

Row 3 is the NKJV 1982.

Row 4 is the NRSV 1999 ["milch"].
​

What was that argument from "archaic" again? Tell me please ...

Overall, the KJV's (NOT "KJB's") language is outdated & archaic, no getting around it, & it has many goofs & booboos.