GOD'S WORD vs THE TEACHINGS AND TRADITIONS OF MEN

[3rdAngel]

THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN - GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN

The very same topics that we discuss here were also discussed in the days of Jesus. The mainstream preachers of Christ's time all claimed to be Children of God because their claim was that they were the Children of Abraham right? This was their claim to being God's people.

JOHN 8:33-45 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say thou, Ye shall be made free?

They claimed belief on the God of Abraham, they claimed to be in bondage to no man. But what did Jesus tell them...............?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

There is more on this engagement between Jesus and the Mainstream God of Abraham preachers of His time in John 8.

Certainly the Pharisees studied the bible as it existed then. AS did Jesus.

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Yet these two factions, Jesus and the Mainstream preachers of His time had almost opposite understandings of the Bible.

It is fair to say not all Jews of that time had the same understanding as the Mainstream Preachers.

Luke 1:5-6 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

So there seems to be a trend here.

The Mainstream Preachers claimed to be God's people, they read God's Words, yet they "Transgressed the Commandments of God by their own doctrines and traditions." (Matthew 15:3-9)

Yet there is no indication that Zacharias or Jesus did this and followed them.

So we have one example of understanding that was gained by study in obedience to the instructions in God's Word, ( Zacharias and Jesus)

And another example of study in disobedience to the instructions of God's Word. (Mainstream preachers of that time)

There were more than just Zacharias.

Matthew 2:1-2 1, Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Here is another example of people who had a completely different understanding than the Mainstream preachers of that time. Is it wrong to assume that they, like Zacharias, also studied in obedience to the instruction?

And Peter, which side of this topic did he fall on?

Acts 5:32-33 33, And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.

Now why was it that the Jews sought to persecute Jesus and the prophets? It was because they refused to obey the instruction of God, and created their own instructions, and the other example did not.

So fast forward to today. We have a Mainstream Christian teaching that "Transgresses the Commandments of God by their own traditions and doctrines."

This is not a judgment, rather, a simple fact.

It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to transgress God's Sabbath Commandment and replace it with the Catholic Sabbath (Sunday worship). It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to create images of God in the likeness of some long haired men's shampoo model, transgressing the first and greatest commandment.

It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to transgress God's Food Laws, and create their own definition of clean and unclean.

So it seems that even today, if a person studies in obedience to God's simple instructions he see's the scripture one way.

If a person studies scripture in disobedience following the traditions and teachings of man in place of God's Word and to God's simple instructions, he sees the scripture in another way.

I believe what Peter taught, that the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth) is given to those who do not "Transgress the Commandments of God by their own religious doctrines and traditions.

But I also know from Peter and Jesus that this belief will infuriate "many" who come in Christ's/God's name.

23 "When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them."

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved."

My hope is that you might consider these words and understand.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (Is it evil or righteous to transgress the commandments of God by doctrines and traditions of men?)

20 For every one that doeth evil (Transgress God's Commandments by their own Traditions) hates the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Is this why the Mainstream preachers of Peters time set about to kill or silence Peter, so he wouldn't expose their transgression of God's Commandments?

21 But he that does truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest,.(let your light shine) that they are wrought in God.

So a circle complete once again. Those who live a doctrine created (wrought) by God have a different understanding than those who live a doctrine created by man who follow the traditions of man. The above was shared with me recently by a friend. I hope it was a blessing to you as it was for me.

Now the important question is who should we obey God or man...............?

..........................................................................................................................
NOTE: PLEASE NO FLAMING OR GOADING; THIS IS A DISCUSSION THREAD ONLY FOR
SHARING GOD'S WORD IN LOVE; FRIENDLY DISCUSSION PLEASE!
.......................................................................................................................

Thanks also to a friend for the inspiration and contribution to this OP. May God bless you as you all as you seek him through His Word.

...........

QUESTIONS

1. If we follow man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God are we following God or man *MATTHEW 15:3-9?

2. If there is no scripture for following teachings and traditions that are against or opposed to Gods' WORD who should we be following God or man? *ACTS 5:29

 

[JoeT]

1. If we follow man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God are we following God or man *MATTHEW 15:3-9?

The word tradition can have several meanings related to faith. One tradition is what we normally call customs. These are usually regional and change depending on the era and the society. They may include dress, food, and certain ways of addressing issues and problems. They may also include issues surrounding posited laws, manmade laws. All of these are manmade. Matthew 15:3-9, however, is not addressing these types of traditions.

Sacred Tradition in the Catholic Church also has several senses and usually works through the Magisterium (the teaching arm of the Church). It can be doctrine, an account, i.e. an explanation, you might say, the light shining on the substance of faith, or a custom. This type of Tradition transmits the teaching of the first century Catholic Church as taught by the Apostles while giving it meaning and relevance to the current age. The articles of doctrine are binding on the faithful, others are not binding. It was out of Sacred Tradition that we have Sacred Scripture, the written accounts of the witnesses of Christ. Scripture is the witness of the Apostles expressly for the authority of the Church [Cf Matthew 18:18; Luke 10:16; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:14].

“You [the Church in the persons of the Apostles] are the light of the world. A city seated on a mountain cannot be hid." [Matthew 5:14]​

Those traditions (customs) of the former description are not binding and can indeed are capable of breaking the commandments of God, e.g. the tradition of divorce in the Protestant community.

There is however, a greater sin than healing the sick on the Sabbath Matthew 15 exposes; creating out of a holy commandment a completely unholy outcome. Christ called the Pharisees hypocrites for doing just that in response to their complaint that Christ healed the sick daughter of the Canaanite woman. They were using the law of the Prophets, keeping the Sabbath, to declare what is good and holy, evil - many consider this to be the unforgivable sin. There is nothing in the Old Testament that so clearly defines work that healing the sick (an act of charity) would break the Sabbath. Simply put, the Pharisee and Scribes were looking for anything that might impeach Christ, the Lord, with His own Law. The response is immediately to the quick, “But you say: If a man shall say to his father or mother, Corban [sometimes spelled Qorban], (which is a gift,) whatsoever is from me, shall profit thee." [Mark 7:11]. The Jewish tradition the Pharisees perverted was to honor father and mother.

The Corban was a gift to God to make one closer to God. Depending on the tradition, it was often performed in the Temple, but was always a vow of a gift to God drawing one (supposedly) closer. The Jewish tradition also required the repayment of all loans within 7 years, those not paid had to be forgiven. Furthermore, the eldest son usually inherited the family’s (mother and father’s) estate when they reached old age and the son was to care for his parents. IN some customs a portion of the gift was relinquished to the Temple, in others it remained in the hands of the gift giver and only a small portion given to the Temple. The portion retained control of the gift; it has been described to me as a shelter, like a tax shelter today. When those who came looking for repayment, the debt couldn’t be repaid, sum was dedicated to God. When parents now, poor and destitute needed support the dispassionate son could withhold care from his parents, all the while claiming how holy he was. This is how the Pharisee perverted the God’s commandments, making them traditions of man.

"Honor thy father and mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee, that thou mayst live a long time, and it may be well with thee in the land, which the Lord thy God will give thee." [Deuteronomy 5:16]​

2. If there is no scripture for following teachings and traditions that are against or opposed to Gods' WORD who should we be following God or man? *ACTS 5:29

The Scriptures don’t say we shouldn’t follow men in traditions; however, we are not to make them our own perverted ungodly tradition. [e,g, 2 Thessalonians 2:14]

JoeT

 

[3rdAngel]

The word tradition can have several meanings related to faith. One tradition is what we normally call customs. These are usually regional and change depending on the era and the society. They may include dress, food, and certain ways of addressing issues and problems. They may also include issues surrounding posited laws, manmade laws. All of these are manmade. Matthew 15:3-9, however, is not addressing these types of traditions.

Sacred Tradition in the Catholic Church also has several senses and usually works through the Magisterium (the teaching arm of the Church). It can be doctrine, an account, i.e. an explanation, you might say, the light shining on the substance of faith, or a custom. This type of Tradition transmits the teaching of the first century Catholic Church as taught by the Apostles while giving it meaning and relevance to the current age. The articles of doctrine are binding on the faithful, others are not binding. It was out of Sacred Tradition that we have Sacred Scripture, the written accounts of the witnesses of Christ. Scripture is the witness of the Apostles expressly for the authority of the Church [Cf Matthew 18:18; Luke 10:16; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:14].

“You [the Church in the persons of the Apostles] are the light of the world. A city seated on a mountain cannot be hid." [Matthew 5:14]​

Those traditions (customs) of the former description are not binding and can indeed are capable of breaking the commandments of God, e.g. the tradition of divorce in the Protestant community.

There is however, a greater sin than healing the sick on the Sabbath Matthew 15 exposes; creating out of a holy commandment a completely unholy outcome. Christ called the Pharisees hypocrites for doing just that in response to their complaint that Christ healed the sick daughter of the Canaanite woman. They were using the law of the Prophets, keeping the Sabbath, to declare what is good and holy, evil - many consider this to be the unforgivable sin. There is nothing in the Old Testament that so clearly defines work that healing the sick (an act of charity) would break the Sabbath. Simply put, the Pharisee and Scribes were looking for anything that might impeach Christ, the Lord, with His own Law. The response is immediately to the quick, “But you say: If a man shall say to his father or mother, Corban [sometimes spelled Qorban], (which is a gift,) whatsoever is from me, shall profit thee." [Mark 7:11]. The Jewish tradition the Pharisees perverted was to honor father and mother.

The Corban was a gift to God to make one closer to God. Depending on the tradition, it was often performed in the Temple, but was always a vow of a gift to God drawing one (supposedly) closer. The Jewish tradition also required the repayment of all loans within 7 years, those not paid had to be forgiven. Furthermore, the eldest son usually inherited the family’s (mother and father’s) estate when they reached old age and the son was to care for his parents. IN some customs a portion of the gift was relinquished to the Temple, in others it remained in the hands of the gift giver and only a small portion given to the Temple. The portion retained control of the gift; it has been described to me as a shelter, like a tax shelter today. When those who came looking for repayment, the debt couldn’t be repaid, sum was dedicated to God. When parents now, poor and destitute needed support the dispassionate son could withhold care from his parents, all the while claiming how holy he was. This is how the Pharisee perverted the God’s commandments, making them traditions of man.

"Honor thy father and mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee, that thou mayst live a long time, and it may be well with thee in the land, which the Lord thy God will give thee." [Deuteronomy 5:16]​

The Scriptures don’t say we shouldn’t follow men in traditions; however, we are not to make them our own perverted ungodly tradition. [e,g, 2 Thessalonians 2:14]

JoeT

Yes great post brother. So there is nothing wrong with tradition in and of it self what makes man made traditions bad is when they lead us away from God's Word. What do you think the lesson is and how does MATTHEW 15:3-9 apply to us today in your view if all these things are written for our admonition?

God bless

 

[Alofa Atu]

The word tradition can have several meanings...

The Scriptures don’t say we shouldn’t follow men in traditions; however, we are not to make them our own perverted ungodly tradition. [e,g, 2 Thessalonians 2:14]

JoeT

"tradition", simply means transmission of something from one person to another, and in the King James Bible is is translated as:

παράδοσις
paradosis

Total KJV Occurrences: 13

tradition, 10

Mat_15:2-3 (2), Mat_15:6, Mar_7:3, Mar_7:5, Mar_7:8-9 (2), Mar_7:13, Col_2:8, 2Th_3:6

traditions, 2

Gal_1:14, 2Th_2:15

ordinances, 1

1Co_11:2

In the septuaginta - Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - παράδοσις - tradition (n.)

παραδόσει παράδοσις παραδοσ(ι)·ι
(fem) dat sg tradition (dat)
Jer 39:4, Jer 41:2

In which both cases simply means to speak instruction from person to person. Just orders, and or instruction being passed from one to another. It doesn't inherently mean holy things, faith, handed along and can simply be common orders, etc.

Instruction was passed by mouth and written word (hence "letter", "epistle"):

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Paul stated that all things needed to be proved by the word of God:

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Jesus himself, and Paul and Peter warned of false "traditions" that were already in circulation in their day.

Col_2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

2Pe_3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Others were already corrupting the word:

2Co_2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

 

[Alofa Atu]

The word tradition can have several meanings...

The Scriptures don’t say we shouldn’t follow men in traditions; however, we are not to make them our own perverted ungodly tradition. [e,g, 2 Thessalonians 2:14]

JoeT

The question is what "traditions" was Paul referring to in context? Made up stuff with no other foundation than devils and men?

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Notice, that in 2 Thessalonians 2:2, this is referred to before:

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Paul already told them in 1 Thessalonians, and it was in regards the second coming (see context) and what they (Thessalonians) were to be doing unto the coming of Jesus.

So Paul himself, actually referred to his personal face to face speaking, and also written in an earlier "our epistle". (1 Thess.)

In 1 Thessalonians 1:3, we see that Paul commended them for their "work of faith and labour of love".

In 1 Thessalonians 1:5 (2:2-5) it speaks of the "gospel" did not come in "word" ("speak", "exhortation", "words") only, but in "power" (Holy Spirit).

In 1 Thessalonians 2:8 it speaks of the "gospel" having been "imparted".

In 1 Thessalonians 2:9 it speaks of the "gospel" having been "preached" and also of the "labour and travail".

1Th 2:10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:
1Th 2:11 As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children,
1Th 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

And so Paul continues by speaking of his example of labour (not in laziness, indolence as some were, being busybodies, etc) among them, and in the gospel:

1Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

Herein is then the "tradition" which Paul spake of that was spoken unto them:

1Th 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
1Th 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
1Th 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
1Th 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
1Th 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
1Th 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
1Th 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
1Th 4:10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
1Th 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
1Th 4:12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
The Coming of the Lord
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

And more:

1Th 5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
1Th 5:13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
1Th 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
1Th 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
1Th 5:16 Rejoice evermore.
1Th 5:17 Pray without ceasing.
1Th 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
1Th 5:25 Brethren, pray for us.
1Th 5:26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.
1Th 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
1Th 5:28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Ain't that sumthin'.

Paul wasn't referring to man-made 'tradition' that came along later and passed itself off as truth.

 

[Alofa Atu]

The word tradition can have several meanings...

The Scriptures don’t say we shouldn’t follow men in traditions; however, we are not to make them our own perverted ungodly tradition. [e,g, 2 Thessalonians 2:14]

JoeT

Let's make sure.

What does our brother Paul mean by the words "the tradition" in 2 Thessalonians 3:6?

2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

"tradition", "traditions" - bad sense

Matthew 15:2 - Matthew 15:3 - Matthew 15:6
Mark 7:3 - Mark 7:5 - Mark 7:8 - Mark 7:9 - Mark 7:13
Galatians 1:14
Colossians 2:8
1 Peter 1:18

In certain passages the word "custom" simply means a positive habit, or repeated action (Luke 4:16, likewise "manner" (Acts 17:2)).

Other times it means a place of gathering taxation, as "sitting at the receipt of custom" (Matthew 9:9 - Mark 2:14 - Luke 5:27), or giving "custom to whom custom" (Romans 13:7) is due.

Also, it can mean a bad tradition, a wicked custom.

"custom" - evil or heathen sense

1 Samuel 2:13
John 18:39
1 Corinthians 11:16

"customs" - wicked sense

Leviticus 18:30
Jeremiah 10:3

There are two known places that the word "tradition" is utilized in a positive meaning.

"tradition" - good sense

2 Thessalonians 2:15
2 Thessalonians 3:6

Brothers and sisters, we should study this together and look at all of the connecting words, and ask our Father for understanding to understand what this means so that we are united together by the word. Let us read the surrounding words, and allow the Holy Spirit of God to enlighten us by teaching us what these things mean.

In prayerfully reading the text, and asking God about this, I continued to read, and here is what I was shown in the same place.

2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
2Th 3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
2Th 3:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
2Th 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
2Th 3:11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
2Th 3:12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
2Th 3:13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
2Th 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
2Th 3:15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

As instructed of God, "the tradition" that Paul speaks of, is not "walking disorderly" (vs 6), and to "follow us", being the example of Paul and others, who "walked not disorderly" (vs 7), and did not "eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you" (vs 8), so that they would be an "ensample unto you who follow us" (vs 9).

We see "commandment" (vss 6,10,12) in regards "the tradition" (vs 10), in that "if any would not work, neither should he eat.", and that this was the orderliness and ensample of Paul's life. This is then contrasted in the next verse to those who are "disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies." (vs 11). This same "command" and exhortation is that those who are presently "disorderly" should "with quietness they work, and eat their own bread." (vs 12) as Paul and others did.

Paul finishes out by telling them who are orderly to "continue in well doing" (vs 13), as they had learned of his own ensample and manner of living, laboring with his own hands to provide for himself while ministering the Gospel.

This is "the tradition", the living custom, the continued godly habit of Paul that he speaks of, and was this that is handed down, in example, in demonstration. Work for the Lord instead of going about as "busybodies", who are "working not at all", "walking disorderly", and who expected to eat of the food of the group, when they would not work with their hands as Paul. No free lunch, and whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might,, as unto the Lord, might best sum it up.

The "and" in this instance means in contrast between the false walking and the true walking.

Example

I can say, "Turn not to the left as others and turn to the right as myself."

"walking disorderly" is in contrast with the walking orderly which is "the tradition" or custom or habit set by Paul and others as the example.

2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

It could then be paraphrased as such

(paraphrased in part) withdraw yourselves away from every brother that is walking disorderly and not after the habit of orderly walking which he received of us by example.

See in vs (7)

2 Thessalonians 3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

The "follow us" is "the tradition", the habit that Paul and others had set amongst them. May I show you? Paul refers back to the previous time in 1 Thessalonians

1 Thessalonians 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

I see yet a little more in that Paul bases that commandment on his own manner and habit and knowledge of the scriptures, as he himself followed the example of Jesus to work with his own hands and to follow the commandments of God in the word of God.

Paul was raised as an Hebrew of the Hebrews, and thus skills, such as tent making, carpentry, fishing and the like were taught unto the children in life, that they might find the enjoyment and blessing of true labouring, to reap the reward through such. Like as gardening. He who does not sow does not reap. Paul would also have backing for this in the Old Testament texts,

Proverbs 12:24 The hand of the diligent shall bear rule: but the slothful shall be under tribute.
Proverbs 12:27 The slothful man roasteth not that which he took in hunting: but the substance of a diligent man is precious.

Proverbs 18:9 He also that is slothful in his work is brother to him that is a great waster.

Proverbs 19:24 A slothful man hideth his hand in his bosom, and will not so much as bring it to his mouth again.

Proverbs 26:15 The slothful hideth his hand in his bosom; it grieveth him to bring it again to his mouth.

The prayerful and thoughtful responses, along with the unity of thought have helped solidify the conclusion arrived at concerning the words of Paul in regards "the tradition" in 2 Thessalonians 3:6.

I have heard others give an entirely different meaning to these words which could not be reconciled with the text itself and strained them by forcing them to mean what they wanted them to mean, and they could not justify their position based upon the words themselves, but only added to the words their own meanings and definitions, to suit their own practices; whatever those were.

When someone brings up the word "tradition" in regards their teaching or action, we ought to then be more careful to discern, and to ask for evidence from God's word about such practices or teaching, whether it be of God or of men.

As a challenge to myself, and to all who read, a question to ask oneself.

Is there anything which I personally do as a habit, a custom, a tradition, even a teaching, or even a thinking, which cannot be sustained by God's word, and might be contrary to that example therein and if so, will I give it up to follow God?

 

[JoeT]

Yes great post brother. So there is nothing wrong with tradition in and of it self what makes man made traditions bad is when they lead us away from God's Word. What do you think the lesson is and how does MATTHEW 15:3-9 apply to us today in your view if all these things are written for our admonition?

God bless

I thought I explained in my previous post, Jesus Christ exposed the Pharisee's hypocrisy by taking a 'tradition' of His Kingdom and making it corrupt.

Sacred Scripture is the written expression of the Church's oral tradition of the Apostles that formed His Kingdom, Church. “But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written." [John 21:25]. Scripture then is not an exhaustive how to book on fidelity.

Catholics hold to an objective faith, one that can be identified, fides qua creditur, ‘the faith by which it is believed’. The substance of truth in faith comes to us from outside of the individual and drawn into the interior as an object of Divine revelation, Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture, Church doctrine, private revelation and that expressed in the understanding of the Creed. At some point one assents to the substance of faith allowing it to form (or reform) our lives, this faith is called fides qua creditur, ‘the faith which is believed’. Fides quae is referred to as objective, fides qua is subjective. The whole of which brings Catholics to an objective understanding, fides quaerens intellectum, faith seeking understanding, (motto of St. Anselm). In short, the underlying truths of Catholicism do not rely on perception or passions, rather there is an underlying objective truth that is perceived and acted on.

Tradition is the living sense of God's Truth in the One faith of Jesus Christ taught by the Apostles and made applicable to the current generation for deposit in the next generation of the family of God. That is to say, when the Apostles wrote Scripture, they wrote of the Tradition of Christ they themselves lived by for the authority of the Church maintaining the substance of true faith.

Concerning Scripture Fr. Joseph T. Lienhard, in his collection of lectures, "The Bible, the Church, and Authority, Epilogue" shows the inability to support one’s own position by adopting relativism as a philosophical tool of interpretation. Fr. Leinhard compares the relationship of authority in the Bible and the Church to discern the ‘final’ authority. The 'authority' naturally belongs in Sacred Scripture as being the "Divine Word" of God given to the Apostles; we identify 12 but likely just shy of 100 disciples. Christ didn't write His own books but rather teaches through the Apostles. Scriptures therefore are the witnesses of Christ's words who are commissioned by Christ to teach, not hand out books for everyone to develop what they might mean. Father Leinhard explains:

"The Bible is, and remains the [Catholic] Church's book, and the Bible can exist as Scripture only in the [Catholic] Church. Rahner also maintains the Catholic insistence on Scripture and tradition as the bearers of revelation. Many recent Protestant authors have also faced up to the need to discuss the role of tradition, at least in the formation of the canon." Ibid, p 84​

As a result Catholics hold that Scripture, tradition and the Church co-exist and are co-authoritative. Without the Catholic Church to validate Scripture, Scripture loses authority to teach faith and morals. Scripture can never stand alone; as the single and only source of God's word and the sole purveyor of faith and morals. This freezes faith to a first century understanding and is unable to cope and grow with the current era. Simply, Sacred Scripture never makes the claim that it and it alone is the sole authority of faith. Scripture relies on the Church for its authentication which. Equally important Sacred Scripture when defined as "the sole source" of God's words precludes miracles, prophecy, Church, and the doctrines of the ECFs. We know this not to be the case because the great and small saints of the Church are 'prophets of God'. Equally important is the Apostles weren't given a BOOK to worship, they were given a Kingdom to mend the fruits of His nation. It's within this Church that we find the Catholic Tradition the means of canonization (authentication) of Scripture. Our salvation would be ill advised to stop even at Tradition, rather we find 'Church' to be a part of a sole and infallible rule of faith. So we find the Apostles as authoritative witnesses wrote the Scriptures for the authority of the Church.

Scripture makes no claim that it is the sole and infallible rule of faith; such belief is BOOK worship. Catholic dogma does not place Sacred Scripture against Sacred Tradition, conversely Scripture is not a Divine Book to be worshiped. However, the Church was commissioned to teach a Divine Word divinely, so how can that happen by teaching conflicting Truths, either out of Scripture or out of Tradition? Wherefore, the body of knowledge comprising both Scripture and Tradition are understood to be objective Truth which is the Catholic treasury. A truth given on any one thing cannot have multiple realities with each individual guided by the spirit of different truths.

JoeT

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: ↑ Yes great post brother. So there is nothing wrong with tradition in and of it self what makes man made traditions bad is when they lead us away from God's Word. What do you think the lesson is and how does MATTHEW 15:3-9 apply to us today in your view if all these things are written for our admonition?

Your reply...

I thought I explained in my previous post, Jesus Christ exposed the Pharisee's hypocrisy by taking a 'tradition' of His Kingdom and making it corrupt.

Sacred Scripture is the written expression of the Church's oral tradition of the Apostles that formed His Kingdom, Church. “But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written." [John 21:25]. Scripture then is not an exhaustive how to book on fidelity.

You did state in your earlier post that Jesus exposed the Pharisee's hypocrisy by taking a 'tradition' of His Kingdom and making it corrupt you did not explain how although this is explained in the scriptures *MATTHEW 15:3-9. You also did not clearly state the difference from the scriptures that define when traditions are good and we should follow them and when they are bad and we should avoid them.

Catholics hold to an objective faith, one that can be identified, fides qua creditur, ‘the faith by which it is believed’. The substance of truth in faith comes to us from outside of the individual and drawn into the interior as an object of Divine revelation, Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture, Church doctrine, private revelation and that expressed in the understanding of the Creed. Tradition is the living sense of God's Truth in the One faith of Jesus Christ taught by the Apostles and made applicable to the current generation for deposit in the next generation of the family of God. That is to say, when the Apostles wrote Scripture, they wrote of the Tradition of Christ they themselves lived by for the authority of the Church maintaining the substance of true faith.

I see. I do not believe in creeds outside of God's WORD. I believe and follow God's Word as the sole source of faith "sola scriptura" and believe the scripture "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" *ROMANS 10:17. No word no faith as the saying goes. For me there is nothing wrong with following traditions if it leads us to God's WORD. I believe God's WORD as stated in MATTHEW 15:3-9 and elsewhere that tradition is bad when it deny's God's WORD and leads others to break God's Commandments - Application today would be the 2nd and 4th commandment of God's eternal LAW (10 Commandments).

Concerning Scripture Fr. Joseph T. Lienhard, in his collection of lectures, "The Bible, the Church, and Authority, Epilogue" shows the inability to support one’s own position by adopting relativism as a philosophical tool of interpretation. Fr. Leinhard compares the relationship of authority in the Bible and the Church to discern the ‘final’ authority. The 'authority' naturally belongs in Sacred Scripture as being the "Divine Word" of God given to the Apostles; we identify 12 but likely just shy of 100 disciples. Christ didn't write His own books but rather teaches through the Apostles. Scriptures therefore are the witnesses of Christ's words who are commissioned by Christ to teach, not hand out books for everyone to develop what they might mean. Father Leinhard explains:

"The Bible is, and remains the [Catholic] Church's book, and the Bible can exist as Scripture only in the [Catholic] Church. Rahner also maintains the Catholic insistence on Scripture and tradition as the bearers of revelation. Many recent Protestant authors have also faced up to the need to discuss the role of tradition, at least in the formation of the canon." Ibid, p 84​

As a result Catholics hold that Scripture, tradition and the Church co-exist and are co-authoritative. Without the Catholic Church to validate Scripture, Scripture loses authority to teach faith and morals. Scripture can never stand alone; as the single and only source of God's word and the sole purveyor of faith and morals. This freezes faith to a first century understanding and is unable to cope and grow with the current era. Simply, Sacred Scripture never makes the claim that it and it alone is the sole authority of faith. Scripture relies on the Church for its authentication which. Equally important Sacred Scripture when defined as "the sole source" of God's words precludes miracles, prophecy, Church, and the doctrines of the ECFs. We know this not to be the case because the great and small saints of the Church are 'prophets of God'. Equally important is the Apostles weren't given a BOOK to worship, they were given a Kingdom to mend the fruits of His nation. It's within this Church that we find the Catholic Tradition the means of canonization (authentication) of Scripture. Our salvation would be ill advised to stop even at Tradition, rather we find 'Church' to be a part of a sole and infallible rule of faith. So we find the Apostles as authoritative witnesses wrote the Scriptures for the authority of the Church.

Scripture makes no claim that it is the sole and infallible rule of faith; such belief is BOOK worship. Catholic dogma does not place Sacred Scripture against Sacred Tradition, conversely Scripture is not a Divine Book to be worshiped. However, the Church was commissioned to teach a Divine Word divinely, so how can that happen by teaching conflicting Truths, either out of Scripture or out of Tradition? Wherefore, the body of knowledge comprising both Scripture and Tradition are understood to be objective Truth which is the Catholic treasury. A truth given on any one thing cannot have multiple realities with each individual guided by the spirit of different truths.

JoeT

Thanks for your thoughts Joe but here we would be in disagreement. I do not believe what you have provided above as a replacement for God's WORD. All that your sharing here is the teachings and traditions of men "OVER" the Word of God.
This is something that is not biblical or is supported by JESUS or the Apostles.

May you receive God's WORD and be blessed.

 

[JoeT]

Your reply...



You did state in your earlier post that Jesus exposed the Pharisee's hypocrisy by taking a 'tradition' of His Kingdom and making it corrupt you did not explain how although this is explained in the scriptures *MATTHEW 15:3-9. You also did not clearly state the difference from the scriptures that define when traditions are good and we should follow them and when they are bad and we should avoid them.

Corban was a tradition of the Jews to be closer to God. I'm quite confident that you do not believe 'getting closer to God' is disrespecting mother and father. Consequently I didn't need to point out the obvious. The Pharisees used a sacrificial offering to buy grace then only to yank the gift back for selfish purposes; in short a perversion of God's traditions becoming a tradition of men.

I see. I do not believe in creeds.

Opps you just uttered a creed, albeit negative.

I believe and follow God's Word as the sole source of faith "sola scriptura" and believe the scripture "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" *ROMANS 10:17.

There you go again, creed-ing all over the place.

No word no faith as the saying goes. For me there is nothing wrong with following traditions if it leads us to God's WORD. I believe God's WORD as stated in MATTHEW 15:3-9 and elsewhere that tradition is bad when it deny's God's WORD and leads others to break God's Commandments - Application today would be the 2nd and 4th commandment of God's eternal LAW (10 Commandments).

yes, the traditions of men -> bad. The Traditions of the Apostles -> good.

Thanks for your thoughts Joe but here we would be in disagreement. I do not believe what you have provided above as a replacement for God's WORD. All that your sharing here is the teachings and traditions of men "OVER" the Word of God.
This is something that is not biblical or is supported by JESUS or the Apostles.

May you receive God's WORD and be blessed.

I didn't suggest a replacement of God's Word. Rather I'd suggest not using it as a talisman. You might want to help me find in Scripture Alone where it says the Bible is the sole and infallible rule of faith.

added: What happens when the book is closed? Is God locked inside, unable to get out?

JoeT

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: ↑ You did state in your earlier post that Jesus exposed the Pharisee's hypocrisy by taking a 'tradition' of His Kingdom and making it corrupt you did not explain how although this is explained in the scriptures *MATTHEW 15:3-9. You also did not clearly state the difference from the scriptures that define when traditions are good and we should follow them and when they are bad and we should avoid them.

Your reply

Corban was a tradition of the Jews to be closer to God. I'm quite confident that you do not believe 'getting closer to God' is disrespecting mother and father. Consequently I didn't need to point out the obvious. The Pharisees used a sacrificial offering to buy grace then only to yank the gift back for selfish purposes; in short a perversion of God's traditions becoming a tradition of men.

Acording to God's WORD in MATTHEW 15:3-9, CORBAN was a tradition of the JEWS that broke the commandments of God. No one is getting close to God by breaking God's commandments as JESUS states "IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS *JOHNM 14:15.

3rdAngel said: ↑ I see. I do not believe in creeds.

Your response...

Opps you just uttered a creed, albeit negative. There you go again, creed-ing all over the place.

I did not write what you were saying I wrote in this post. You wrote that I said "I do not believe in creeds." when my response to you was "I do not believe and creeds outside of God's WORD" when I was referring what you were saying about creeds outside of Gods Word (see post # 8). Perhaps this was accidental on your behalf. I choose to believe it was. I hope you can quote what I say and not what I do not say in the future as it only causes misunderstandings and is misleading.

3rdAngel said: ↑ I believe and follow God's Word as the sole source of faith "sola scriptura" and believe the scripture "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" *ROMANS 10:17. No word no faith as the saying goes. For me there is nothing wrong with following traditions if it leads us to God's WORD. I believe God's WORD as stated in MATTHEW 15:3-9 and elsewhere that tradition is bad when it deny's God's WORD and leads others to break God's Commandments - Application today would be the 2nd and 4th commandment of God's eternal LAW (10 Commandments).

Your response...

yes, the traditions of men -> bad. The Traditions of the Apostles -> good.

So you agree that any man made tradition that leads someone away from God's WORD to break any one of God's 10 commandments is is bad. The tradition of the Apostles was always and only to believe and follow God's WORD. How do you account for the man made traditions of Sunday worship and the Lords day that have lead many to break God's 4th commandment and also those traditions that allow idols into the church that the congregation bow before, infant baptism, praying to the dead (saints)? There is too many to list here that have crept into the mother Church that break the commandments of God that have been handed down to the rest of Christianity.

3rdAngel said: ↑Thanks for your thoughts Joe but here we would be in disagreement. I do not believe what you have provided above as a replacement for God's WORD. All that your sharing here is the teachings and traditions of men "OVER" the Word of God. This is something that is not biblical or is supported by JESUS or the Apostles.

Your response...

I didn't suggest a replacement of God's Word. Rather I'd suggest not using it as a talisman. You might want to help me find in Scripture Alone where it says the Bible is the sole and infallible rule of faith. added: What happens when the book is closed? Is God locked inside, unable to get out? JoeT

It sounded like you were from what I was reading from within your last post and lectures from sources outside of the bible. This is also a practice from within the Roman Catholic Church. I think I have already provided examples of Sunday worship and God's 4th commandments and the 2nd commandment about making idols and bowing down to them as a few of many.

As to the scripture stating what is the sole infallable rule of faith? Why it is the Word of God of course from which all faith arrives....

ROMANS 10:17 FAITH COMES BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD

May you receive God's Word and be blessed.

 

[JoeT]

Your reply



Acording to God's WORD in MATTHEW 15:3-9, CORBAN was a tradition of the JEWS that broke the commandments of God. No one is getting close to God by breaking God's commandments as JESUS states "IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS *JOHNM 14:15.

Which was the entire point. It was not that tradition was evil or bad, it was what man made of Tradition.

Your response...



I did not write what you were saying I wrote in this post. You wrote that I said "I do not believe in creeds." when my response to you was "I do not believe and creeds outside of God's WORD" when I was referring what you were saying about creeds outside of Gods Word (see post # 8). Perhaps this was accidental on your behalf. I choose to believe it was. I hope you can quote what I say and not what I do not say in the future as it only causes misunderstandings and is misleading.

It is not my habit to redact anther's post. Nor is it my habit to mislead.

Your response...



So you agree that any man made tradition that leads someone away from God's WORD to break any one of God's 10 commandments is is bad. The tradition of the Apostles was always and only to believe and follow God's WORD. How do you account for the man made traditions of Sunday worship and the Lords day that have lead many to break God's 4th commandment and also those traditions that allow idols into the church that the congregation bow before, infant baptism, praying to the dead (saints)? There is too many to list here that have crept into the mother Church that break the commandments of God that have been handed down to the rest of Christianity.

A perversion of truth by men leads us away from God's Word.

Your response...



It sounded like you were from what I was reading from within your last post and lectures from sources outside of the bible. This is also a practice from within the Roman Catholic Church.

It is the practice of the Catholic Church to teach 'Truth', God's Truth.

I think I have already provided examples of Sunday worship and God's 4th commandments and the 2nd commandment about making idols and bowing down to them as a few of many.

The power to change the day of worship from the Sabbath to "the Lords Day", Sunday, was given the Church in the persons of the Apostles to whom it was said, " Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven." [Matthew 18:18].

Catholics to not worship idols.

As to the scripture stating what is the sole infallable rule of faith? Why it is the Word of God of course from which all faith arrives....

ROMANS 10:17 FAITH COMES BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD

May you receive God's Word and be blessed.

With regard to the "Word of God": The soul, says St. Augustine to the monk, Renatus, “was not created out of Himself, but by Himself out of nothing". The Catholic teaching then is the soul of each individual person is the breath of God. It is not the exhalation of air but ‘nothing’ that comes out of nothing, the spirit of God, to form a living person just as the first man was created, “who gives breath to the people” [Cf. Genesis 2:7]. In this way each of us has life, the breath of God, which of course results in death once the soul leaves the body. A mystery comprised of the union of spirit and body manifesting itself as life. God forms out of nothing the living person [Cf. Isaiah 42:5]. So it is that the meaning of the breath of God in Scriptures has become our understanding of the mysteries of life itself [Cf. 1 Corinthians 15:38].

Then we can conclude that if we hold that Sacred Scripture is "the Word of God," His breath, then it too is alive - physically, not just symbolically. Do you worship a book? Sacred Scripture is the living memories of the Apostles, their traditions, intended for the teaching authority of the Church.

JoeT

 

[3rdAngel]

Which was the entire point. It was not that tradition was evil or bad, it was what man made of Tradition.

Not really Joe, for me the scriptures teach that it is the breaking of the Commandments of God that made the tradition of not Honoring mother and father Evil as God's 10 commandments as I am sure you would agree gives us the "KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS" *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172 and if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11.

It is not my habit to redact anther's post. Nor is it my habit to mislead.

That is ok Joe. I choose to believe it was accidental. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and responding to that section of the post.

A perversion of truth by men leads us away from God's Word.

Agreed, just as a perversion of the truth can be made into a tradition as shown in MATTHEW 15:3-9

I

t is the practice of the Catholic Church to teach 'Truth', God's Truth.

I guess it depends on how you define what truth is. I believe truth as defined in the bible as God's WORD *JOHN 17:17; ROMANS 3:4

The power to change the day of worship from the Sabbath to "the Lords Day", Sunday, was given the Church in the persons of the Apostles to whom it was said, " Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven." [Matthew 18:18].

Sorry brother I cannot accept these claims. There is not one scripture that says Gods' 4th commandment Sabbath has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day this is simply unbiblical. All of the apostles kept Gods' 4th commandment after the example of JESUS and also according to the scriptures alone "THE LORDS DAY" is the Sabbath day *MATTHEW 12:8 not Sunday or the first day of the week.

Catholics to not worship idols.

No one in the RCC makes idols puts them in their churches and do not bow down to them and deletes the 2nd commandment on idolatry?

With regard to the "Word of God": The soul, says St. Augustine to the monk, Renatus, “was not created out of Himself, but by Himself out of nothing". The Catholic teaching then is the soul of each individual person is the breath of God. It is not the exhalation of air but ‘nothing’ that comes out of nothing, the spirit of God, to form a living person just as the first man was created, “who gives breath to the people” [Cf. Genesis 2:7]. In this way each of us has life, the breath of God, which of course results in death once the soul leaves the body. A mystery comprised of the union of spirit and body manifesting itself as life. God forms out of nothing the living person [Cf. Isaiah 42:5]. So it is that the meaning of the breath of God in Scriptures has become our understanding of the mysteries of life itself [Cf. 1 Corinthians 15:38].

Then we can conclude that if we hold that Sacred Scripture is "the Word of God," His breath, then it too is alive - physically, not just symbolically. Do you worship a book? Sacred Scripture is the living memories of the Apostles, their traditions, intended for the teaching authority of the Church.

JoeT[/QUOTE]

I believe the Word of God is alive...

HEBREWS 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Joe

 

[JoeT]

Not really Joe, for me the scriptures teach that it is the breaking of the Commandments of God that made the tradition of not Honoring mother and father Evil as God's 10 commandments as I am sure you would agree gives us the "KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS" *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172 and if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11.

Maybe I’ve forgotten my English (if I ever knew it), isn’t a perversion of God’s words a sin, evil and unrighteous? Or do you make a distinction, between from sin being an immoral act of word, deed, or thought?

That is ok Joe. I choose to believe it was accidental. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and responding to that section of the post.

I’m grateful.

Agreed, just as a perversion of the truth can be made into a tradition as shown in MATTHEW 15:3-9

I think you have the cart pulling the horse. The ‘tradition’ existed; it was holy in that its intent was to move one closer to God in the Old Testament. It was the tradition that was perverted and contorted into something evil.

I

I guess it depends on how you define what truth is. I believe truth as defined in the bible as God's WORD *JOHN 17:17; ROMANS 3:4

In Chapter 17 of John, Christ is heard to say "Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth." [John 17:17] he is praying to God. He is saying God’s Word is Truth, not one’s own relativistic or rationalist truth. There is only one absolute truth and that is Truth is convertible to God. This is a prerequisite to accrue a virtuous morality. Without God there is no absolute Truth and without an authority there is no objective or absolute truth to which we can turn; hence, no morals. Without morals, there is no distinction between good and evil and he that believes what he wills will do what he wills. Every issue of good versus evil becomes a game of secular moral relativism.

Without reservation we can say God is Truth. And without reservation we can say truth is immutable. We can continue on the nature of truth:

As God exists so too does an absolute and objective Truth exist. (see Summa Prima Q,2,3)
As God is Immutable so too is Truth immutable (see Summa Prima Q,9, 1).
As God is Eternal so too “God is His own uniform being; and hence as He is His own essence, so He is His own eternity.” thus Truth is eternal. (see Summa Prima Q,10 2)
As God is Spiritual. “…it follows that there is no accident in God” Whereby Truth is spiritual (see Summa Prima Q,3,3 & 6).

As God is unconstrained by space, time or matter so too is Truth unconfined by space, time or matter. (See Summa Prima Q,3,1).

As God is superior to man so too is God’s law (Divine law) is superior to man’s law (see PRIMA SECUNDÆ PARTIS Q,91,4).

From which we can say that Truth is God and like God immutable and absolute.

The Psalms render a concise picture of God's Truth:

I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments I have not forgotten. Psalm 118:30 (Truth is the measure by which we are judged)

And take not thou the word of truth utterly out of my mouth: for in thy words, I have hoped exceedingly. Psalm 118:43 (Truth is from God)

I know, O Lord, that thy judgments are equity: and in thy truth thou hast humbled me. Psalm 118:75 (Truth humbles our intellect)

All thy statutes are truth: they have persecuted me unjustly, do thou help me. Psalm 118:86 (Truth is dogmatic)

Thy truth unto all generations: thou hast founded the earth, and it continueth. Psalm 118:90 (Truth is eternal)

Thou hast commanded justice thy testimonies: and thy truth exceedingly. Psalm 118:138 (God’s justice is Truth)

Thy justice is justice for ever: and thy law is the truth. Psalm 118:142 (God’s law is Truth and unchanging). {This is particularly important given that we are judged by the same laws of God as Adam, Abraham, Moses, David, etc. The claim of modernists, all things change is untrue.}

Thou art near, O Lord: and all thy ways are truth. Psalm 118:151 (God’s ways are Truth)

The beginning of thy words is truth: all the judgments of thy justice are forever. Psalm 118:160 (God’s words are Truth)

And no discussion of Truth is complete unless we mention Christ's own words;

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me. If you had known me, you would without doubt have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him. And you have seen him." John 14:6-7.

Simpler than all of these we can say ‘Truth is Reality’. And just as simply we can say what ‘Truth’ is not; Truth is not Nominalism, Rationalism or relativism.

Sorry brother I cannot accept these claims. There is not one scripture that says Gods' 4th commandment Sabbath has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day this is simply unbiblical. All of the apostles kept Gods' 4th commandment after the example of JESUS and also according to the scriptures alone "THE LORDS DAY" is the Sabbath day *MATTHEW 12:8 not Sunday or the first day of the week.

And let’s see you have an exact count of the beginning and end of each week since creation? Which is the last day relative to our days of the week? But, nevertheless, I’ll celebrate the “Lords Day” on Sunday.

No one in the RCC makes idols puts them in their churches and do not bow down to them and deletes the 2nd commandment on idolatry?

We put statues in our Churches, they are works of art to uplift the heart and raise the spirits towards God.

Then we can conclude that if we hold that Sacred Scripture is "the Word of God," His breath, then it too is alive - physically, not just symbolically. Do you worship a book? Sacred Scripture is the living memories of the Apostles, their traditions, intended for the teaching authority of the Church.
JoeT

I believe the Word of God is alive...

Do you set your book out on the table and worship it?

HEBREWS 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Joe

The language in this verse and the following is metaphorical. The Word of God is the Son of God, [Cf. John 1:1; 1:14.

JoeT

 

[3rdAngel]

Maybe I’ve forgotten my English (if I ever knew it), isn’t a perversion of God’s words a sin, evil and unrighteous? Or do you make a distinction, between from sin being an immoral act of word, deed, or thought?

Well I guess that depends if someone is knowingly doing it on purpose once they have been given a knowledge of the truth or if they are doing it our of ignornace because they do not know any better. Now what perversion are you referring to?

3rdAngel wrote: Agreed, just as a perversion of the truth can be made into a tradition as shown in MATTHEW 15:3-9

Your reply...

I think you have the cart pulling the horse. The ‘tradition’ existed; it was holy in that its intent was to move one closer to God in the Old Testament. It was the tradition that was perverted and contorted into something evil.

This would be where we disagree. The tradition outlined in MATTHEW 15:3-9 was not Holy it was "UNHOLY" it broke God's 5th Commandment. JESUS states this personally that they were transgresing God's LAW which is sinning *MATTHEW 15:3; 1 JOHN 3:4; MARK 7:7-13 against God and our fellow man.

In Chapter 17 of John, Christ is heard to say "Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth." [John 17:17] he is praying to God. He is saying God’s Word is Truth, not one’s own relativistic or rationalist truth. There is only one absolute truth and that is Truth is convertible to God. This is a prerequisite to accrue a virtuous morality. Without God there is no absolute Truth and without an authority there is no objective or absolute truth to which we can turn; hence, no morals. Without morals, there is no distinction between good and evil and he that believes what he wills will do what he wills. Every issue of good versus evil becomes a game of secular moral relativism.

Without reservation we can say God is Truth. And without reservation we can say truth is immutable. We can continue on the nature of truth:

As God exists so too does an absolute and objective Truth exist. (see Summa Prima Q,2,3)
As God is Immutable so too is Truth immutable (see Summa Prima Q,9, 1).
As God is Eternal so too “God is His own uniform being; and hence as He is His own essence, so He is His own eternity.” thus Truth is eternal. (see Summa Prima Q,10 2)
As God is Spiritual. “…it follows that there is no accident in God” Whereby Truth is spiritual (see Summa Prima Q,3,3 & 6).

As God is unconstrained by space, time or matter so too is Truth unconfined by space, time or matter. (See Summa Prima Q,3,1).

As God is superior to man so too is God’s law (Divine law) is superior to man’s law (see PRIMA SECUNDÆ PARTIS Q,91,4).

From which we can say that Truth is God and like God immutable and absolute.

The Psalms render a concise picture of God's Truth:

I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments I have not forgotten. Psalm 118:30 (Truth is the measure by which we are judged)

And take not thou the word of truth utterly out of my mouth: for in thy words, I have hoped exceedingly. Psalm 118:43 (Truth is from God)

I know, O Lord, that thy judgments are equity: and in thy truth thou hast humbled me. Psalm 118:75 (Truth humbles our intellect)

All thy statutes are truth: they have persecuted me unjustly, do thou help me. Psalm 118:86 (Truth is dogmatic)

Thy truth unto all generations: thou hast founded the earth, and it continueth. Psalm 118:90 (Truth is eternal)

Thou hast commanded justice thy testimonies: and thy truth exceedingly. Psalm 118:138 (God’s justice is Truth)

Thy justice is justice for ever: and thy law is the truth. Psalm 118:142 (God’s law is Truth and unchanging). {This is particularly important given that we are judged by the same laws of God as Adam, Abraham, Moses, David, etc. The claim of modernists, all things change is untrue.}

Thou art near, O Lord: and all thy ways are truth. Psalm 118:151 (God’s ways are Truth)

The beginning of thy words is truth: all the judgments of thy justice are forever. Psalm 118:160 (God’s words are Truth)

And no discussion of Truth is complete unless we mention Christ's own words;

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me. If you had known me, you would without doubt have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him. And you have seen him." John 14:6-7.

Simpler than all of these we can say ‘Truth is Reality’. And just as simply we can say what ‘Truth’ is not; Truth is not Nominalism, Rationalism or relativism.

All the scripture you have provided here only support what I was sharing with you in JOHN 17:17 God's WORD is truth.

3rdAngel wrote: Sorry brother I cannot accept these claims. There is not one scripture that says Gods' 4th commandment Sabbath has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day this is simply unbiblical. All of the apostles kept Gods' 4th commandment after the example of JESUS and also according to the scriptures alone "THE LORDS DAY" is the Sabbath day *MATTHEW 12:8 not Sunday or the first day of the week.

Your response...

And let’s see you have an exact count of the beginning and end of each week since creation? Which is the last day relative to our days of the week? But, nevertheless, I’ll celebrate the “Lords Day” on Sunday.

Sure have. The JEWS have been keeping it for 4000 years already as has JESUS and all the Apostles and Gods' people all through time to this very present day. No need to guess or be unsure of the time. As posted earlier "THE LORDS DAY" is the SABBATH DAY not Sunday or the first day of the week *MATTHEW 12:8. Do you have any scriptures that says that "THE LORDS DAY" is Sunday or the first day of the week? If you do not than your claims to Sunday is only a man made teaching and tradition that breaks the commandments of God.

3rdAngel wrote: No one in the RCC makes idols puts them in their churches and do not bow down to them and deletes the 2nd commandment on idolatry?

Your response...

We put statues in our Churches, they are works of art to uplift the heart and raise the spirits towards God. Do you set your book out on the table and worship it?

Yet God tells us not to make graven images in the 2nd commandment that has been deleted from the Catholic bible and everyone bows down to them in the church right?

3rdAngel wrote: HEBREWS 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Your response...

The language in this verse and the following is metaphorical. The Word of God is the Son of God, [Cf. John 1:1; 1:14.

Where does it say the language in HEBREWS 4:12 is metphorical. Do you not believe God created all things through his Word? God's Word according to God's WORD is indeed alive and I choose to believe him.

May you receive Gods' WORD and be blessed.

 

[JoeT]

Well I guess that depends if someone is knowingly doing it on purpose once they have been given knowledge of the truth or if they are doing it out of ignorance because they do not know any better. Now what perversion are you referring to?

My apologies, my previous post shorthanded the definition of sin. St. Augustine properly defines sin as, a voluntary immoral act of word, deed or thought. For our purposes we need to stress the voluntary aspects of sin.

“… sin is nothing else than a bad human act. Now that an act is a human act is due to its being voluntary, whether it be voluntary, as being elicited by the will, e.g. to will or to choose, or as being commanded by the will, e.g. the exterior actions of speech or operation. Again, a human act is evil through lacking conformity with its due measure: and conformity of measure in a thing depends on a rule, from which if that thing depart, it is incommensurate. Now there are two rules of the human will: one is proximate and homogeneous, viz. the human reason; the other is the first rule, viz. the eternal law, which is God's reason, so to speak. See Contra Faustum . xxii, 27 CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Faustum, Book XXII (Augustine), St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, I, II, 71,6​

For some reason assigning an invincible ignorance to the first century Pharisee just doesn’t have a ring of credibility. These were men who had posited some 600-plus laws of faith, in addition to the Divine Law.

Corban (קָרְבָּן qorbān) has Semitic root meaning “be close” and is generally translated in the Septuagint as “sacrifice” or “gift” found in [Leviticus 1:2; 2:1, 4, 5, and 7]. Also see Strong’s Hebrew 7133. There are 83 verses containing Corban or a variant meaning sacrifice for being nearer to God. I doubt that ignorance, invincible or otherwise, is at play in the acts of the Pharisee.

"Speak to the children of Israel, and thou shalt say to them: The man among you that shall offer to the Lord a sacrifice of the cattle, that is, offering victims of oxen and sheep," [Leviticus 1:2].​

This would be where we disagree. The tradition outlined in MATTHEW 15:3-9 was not Holy it was "UNHOLY" it broke God's 5th Commandment. JESUS states this personally that they were transgresing God's LAW which is sinning *MATTHEW 15:3; 1 JOHN 3:4; MARK 7:7-13 against God and our fellow man.

Ugh! The point is that the Pharisee made the Corban rites unholy, not that the Corban rites were unholy in themselves. Thus, the Parasitical Jew was taking what is made holy by God and making it unholy - said to be the unforgivable sin (turning what is holy into something unholy).

Consequently, we find Christ making the charge of hypocrisy. While Jesus’ supposed sin was healing the sick on the Sabbath, these Pharisees were practicing a wholly heretical act committing an atrocious act of disrespecting and dishonoring their fathers and mothers.

All the scripture you have provided here only support what I was sharing with you in JOHN 17:17 God's WORD is truth.

Then do you mean to say that God’s Word is only a book?

Sure have. The JEWS have been keeping it for 4000 years already as has JESUS and all the Apostles and Gods' people all through time to this very present day. No need to guess or be unsure of the time. As posted earlier "THE LORDS DAY" is the SABBATH DAY not Sunday or the first day of the week *MATTHEW 12:8. Do you have any scriptures that says that "THE LORDS DAY" is Sunday or the first day of the week? If you do not than your claims to Sunday is only a man made teaching and tradition that breaks the commandments of God.

Where our Lord is, Jesus Christ, so too is the Sabbath.

And he said to them: The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath. [28] Therefore the Son of man is Lord of the sabbath also." [Mark 2:27-28]

Consequently, as Christ broke the chains of the Sabbath, e.g. Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10

But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations [Didache 14, (A.D. 70)]​

Of keeping the Sabbath, Pope Gregory I (A.D. 597) we see that those who preach keeping the Sabbath as heretics.

What else can I call these but preachers of Antichrist, who, when he comes, will cause the Sabbath day as well as the Lord's day to be kept free from all work. For, because he pretends to die and rise again, he wishes the Lord's day to be had in reverence; and, because he compels the people to judaize that he may bring back the outward rite of the law, and subject the perfidy of the Jews to himself, he wishes the Sabbath to be observed. Gregory I, Registrum Epistolarum 13,1]​

Nevertheless, as Baptism (water and Holy Spirit) is the new circumcision so too is the Lord’s Day the new Sabbath.

Yet God tells us not to make graven images in the 2nd commandment that has been deleted from the Catholic bible and everyone bows down to them in the church right?

If your contention is that every ‘image’ is graven then for your sake I hope you don’t have a picture of your family in your wallet! I hope you don’t watch TV or movies, they are moving pictures.

Where does it say the language in HEBREWS 4:12 is metphorical. Do you not believe God created all things through his Word? God's Word according to God's WORD is indeed alive and I choose to believe him.

May you receive Gods' WORD and be blessed.

If the language were literal then we should be worshiping BOOK, would we not? We decidedly don’t worship an inanimate object - which by the way is heretical isn't it? His Word is indeed eternal and immutable but unless you have one of those ‘talking’ books you don’t HEAR His Word. If indeed you worship BOOK you dare not close it, as it would be closing the cover on God.

We pray you receive God’s Word and enter His Kingdom.

JoeT

 

[3rdAngel]

My apologies, my previous post shorthanded the definition of sin. St. Augustine properly defines sin as, a voluntary immoral act of word, deed or thought. For our purposes we need to stress the voluntary aspects of sin.

“… sin is nothing else than a bad human act. Now that an act is a human act is due to its being voluntary, whether it be voluntary, as being elicited by the will, e.g. to will or to choose, or as being commanded by the will, e.g. the exterior actions of speech or operation. Again, a human act is evil through lacking conformity with its due measure: and conformity of measure in a thing depends on a rule, from which if that thing depart, it is incommensurate. Now there are two rules of the human will: one is proximate and homogeneous, viz. the human reason; the other is the first rule, viz. the eternal law, which is God's reason, so to speak. See Contra Faustum . xxii, 27 CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Faustum, Book XXII (Augustine), St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, I, II, 71,6​

​

No need to apologise brother we are all only human and make mistakes. I do not believe your quote here correctly defines sin. While I believe we can sin in word, thought and action. If someone knows somthing is sin or does not know something is sin it does not mean something is not sin.

It simply means someone has not been given a knowledge that something is sin and in times of ignorance until someone knows better God does not hold them accountable to it *ACTS 17:30-31; JAMES 4:7. While it is true we are only held accountable to sin when we know it is sin "as Christians and believers of God's Word" sin is sin and is so regardless of our knowledge of it.

SIN is defined very clearly in God's Word as breaking any one of God's 10 Commandments and not believing and following God's Word *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4; ROMANS 7:7; ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 14:23.

For some reason assigning an invincible ignorance to the first century Pharisee just doesn’t have a ring of credibility. These were men who had posited some 600-plus laws of faith, in addition to the Divine Law.

Sorry brother I have never said such things and do not know why you are inferring I have. Although that being said I am sure there would have been genuine people at the time that did not know any better and thought what they were taught was from God's Word when in fact it was only a man made teaching that has no basis in God's Word and was only a man made teaching and traditions that broke the commandments of God *MATTHEW 15:3-9.

Corban (קָרְבָּן qorbān) has Semitic root meaning “be close” and is generally translated in the Septuagint as “sacrifice” or “gift” found in [Leviticus 1:2; 2:1, 4, 5, and 7]. Also see Strong’s Hebrew 7133. There are 83 verses containing Corban or a variant meaning sacrifice for being nearer to God. I doubt that ignorance, invincible or otherwise, is at play in the acts of the Pharisee. "Speak to the children of Israel, and thou shalt say to them: The man among you that shall offer to the Lord a sacrifice of the cattle, that is, offering victims of oxen and sheep," [Leviticus 1:2].
Ugh! The point is that the Pharisee made the Corban rites unholy, not that the Corban rites were unholy in themselves. Thus, the Parasitical Jew was taking what is made holy by God and making it unholy - said to be the unforgivable sin (turning what is holy into something unholy). Consequently, we find Christ making the charge of hypocrisy. While Jesus’ supposed sin was healing the sick on the Sabbath, these Pharisees were practicing a wholly heretical act committing an atrocious act of disrespecting and dishonoring their fathers and mothers.

Let me speak plainly here brother. This section of your post is not true. Why? The application of CORBAN or "A GIFT" as a replacement for breaking God's 5th Commandment was a man-made teaching and tradition that brakes God's LAW. It is not biblical and found no where in God's Word.

This man-made teaching and tradition was applied to G2878 κορβᾶν korban or H7133 קָרְבָּן qorban which in the HEBREWS only has application to gift offerings

Thayer's Greek Lexicon STRONGS NT 2878: κορβᾶν
κορβᾶν (κορβᾶν WH; but see Tdf. Proleg., p. 102), indeclinable, and κορβανᾶς, accusative κορβᾶν (Buttmann, 20 (18)), ὁ (Hebrew קָרְבָּן i. e. an offering, the Sept. everywhere δῶρον, a term which comprehends all kinds of sacrifices, the bloody as well as the bloodless);
1. κορβᾶν, a gift offered (or to be offered) to God: Mark 7:11 (Josephus, Antiquities 4, 4, 4, of the Nazarites, οἱ κορβᾶν αὑτούς ὀνομασαντες τῷ Θεῷ, δῶρον δέ τοῦτο σημαίνει κατά Ἑλλήνων γλῶτταν; cf. contracted Apion. 1, 22, 4; (BB. DD. under the word, Corban; Ginsburg in the Bible Educator, 1:155)).
2. κορβανᾶς, κορβανα (see Buttmann, as above), the sacred treasury: Matthew 27:6 (L marginal reading Tr marginal reading κορβᾶν) (τόν ἱερόν θησαυρόν, καλεῖται δέ κορβανᾶς, Josephus, b. j. 2, 9, 4).

Brown-Driver-Briggs H7133 קָרְבָּן qorban
קָרְבָּן80 noun masculineLev 6:13 offering, oblation (Assyrian kurbannu, id., apparently always with כ DlHWB 351); — absolute ׳ק Leviticus 1:2 +; construct קָרְבַּן Leviticus 2:1 +; Sf. קָרְבָּנִי Numbers 28:2 plural suffix קָרְבְּנֵיהֶם Leviticus 7:38; — offering, oblation, General term for all kinds of offering (only Ezekiel Leviticus Numbers [H P]): animal Leviticus 1:2,3,10 +, vegetable Leviticus 2:1 (twice in verse); Leviticus 2:5 +, articles of gold Numbers 31:50, silver Numbers 7:13 +, etc., as accusative of congnate meaning with verb after הִקְרִיב Leviticus 1:2 (twice in verse); Leviticus 3:14; Numbers 6:14 + (see √ Hiph`il 2 b (5)); cstr מִנְחָה ׳ק Leviticus 2:1,4,13 רֵאשִׁית ׳ק Leviticus 2:12 אִשֶּׁה ׳ק Leviticus 22:27; ׳י ׳ק Numbers 9:7,13 (compareNumbers 31:50).
[קֻרְבָּן] noun [masculine] offering; — construct קֻרְבַּן הָעֵצִים wood-offering for second temple Nehemiah 10:35; Nehemiah 13:31.
II. קרב (√ of following; compare Assyrian kirbu, midst; Late Hebrew [קֶרֶב] plural entrails (rare); MI23,24 בקרב in the midst of the city; perhaps also Arabic

heart).

There is only one reference applied to 2878. korban as a man made teaching and tradition and it is to
and it is to man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God *MARK 7:11 which was never the biblical application and teaching of qorban which is an application of all kinds of offering (see Brown-Driver-Briggs H7133 קָרְבָּן qorban definition and scripture application above).

Therefore the man made teaching and tradition that breaks God's 5th Commandment in MATTHEW 15:3-9 or MARK 7:5-13 applied to qorban was never biblical to begin with as it was a man-made teachings that is not biblical according to JESUS.

will continue...

 

[3rdAngel]

Then do you mean to say that God’s Word is only a book?

Not sure why you would think that brother when I am stating the very opposite.

3rdAngel wrote: Sure have. The JEWS have been keeping it for 4000 years already as has JESUS and all the Apostles and Gods' people all through time to this very present day. No need to guess or be unsure of the time. As posted earlier "THE LORDS DAY" is the SABBATH DAY not Sunday or the first day of the week *MATTHEW 12:8. Do you have any scriptures that says that "THE LORDS DAY" is Sunday or the first day of the week? If you do not than your claims to Sunday is only a man made teaching and tradition that breaks the commandments of God.

Your response...

Where our Lord is, Jesus Christ, so too is the Sabbath. And he said to them: The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath. [28] Therefore the Son of man is Lord of the sabbath also." [Mark 2:27-28]

God's presence is in the SABBATH *GENESIS 2:1-3 but the SABBATH as defined in Gods' WORD as the SEVENTH DAY of the week *EXODUS 20:10. JESUS is not the SABBATH the SABBATH is the SEVENTH DAY and JESUS is the creator of it *MARK 2:28; JOHN 1:1-4; JOHN 1:14.

Consequently, as Christ broke the chains of the Sabbath, e.g. Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10

JESUS never broke the SABBATH or he could never have been our perfect sacrifice for sin. He taught us how to correctly keep the SABBATH and that he was the creator of it that he made for all mankind. None of the scriptures you have provided say that God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. Just the same as there is no scriptures that says "THE LORDS DAY" is Sunday or the first day of the week. This is only man made traditions that break the commandments of God as shown in MATTHEW 15:3-9; MARK 7:5-13.

But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations [Didache 14, (A.D. 70)]

Of keeping the Sabbath, Pope Gregory I (A.D. 597) we see that those who preach keeping the Sabbath as heretics.

What else can I call these but preachers of Antichrist, who, when he comes, will cause the Sabbath day as well as the Lord's day to be kept free from all work. For, because he pretends to die and rise again, he wishes the Lord's day to be had in reverence; and, because he compels the people to judaize that he may bring back the outward rite of the law, and subject the perfidy of the Jews to himself, he wishes the Sabbath to be observed. Gregory I, Registrum Epistolarum 13,1]

I am sorry brother, why you would put this quote on equal footing to God's WORD is beyond me and in my view has no relevance to the discussion. If you have Gods' WORD for your tradition than share it. If you do not than your only following a teaching and tradition of men that break the commandments of God. It is true however that all who taught the reformation were called heretics by the Roman Catholic Church. This resulted in the Roman Catholic Church persecuting and killing up to 50 million Chrisitains because they turned away from following man made teachings in order to follow the pure Word of God.

Nevertheless, as Baptism (water and Holy Spirit) is the new circumcision so too is the Lord’s Day the new Sabbath.

"THE LORDS DAY" according to God's WORD is the SABBATH *MATTHEW 12:8. There is NO scripture that says that "THE LORDS DAY" is Sunday or the first day of the week. This application is also only a man made teaching and tradition that breaks the commandment of God which JESUS warns us about in MATTHEW 15:3-9; MARK 7:5-13.

If your contention is that every ‘image’ is graven then for your sake I hope you don’t have a picture of your family in your wallet! I hope you don’t watch TV or movies, they are moving pictures. If the language were literal then we should be worshiping BOOK, would we not? We decidedly don’t worship an inanimate object - which by the way is heretical isn't it? His Word is indeed eternal and immutable but unless you have one of those ‘talking’ books you don’t HEAR His Word. If indeed you worship BOOK you dare not close it, as it would be closing the cover on God.

God's 2nd commandment says..

EXODUS 20:4-5 [4], “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. [5] Thou shalt not bow down to them, nor serve them; for I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, recompensing the sins of the fathers upon the children, to the third and fourth generation to them that hate me,

an idol; פֶ֣֙סֶל֙ ׀‪‬ (p̄e·sel) Noun - masculine singular Strong's Hebrew 6459: An idol, image

Brown-Driver-Briggs
מֶּ֫סֶל31 noun masculineHabakkuk 2:18 idol, image; — absolute ׳פ Judges 17:3 +, מָּ֑סֶל Isaiah 42:17; construct מֶּסֶל Judges 18:31 +; suffix מִּסְלִי Isaiah 48:5, etc.; plural supplied by מְּסִילִים see following; — idol, as likeness of man or animal Exodus 20:4=Deuteronomy 5:8; Exodus 4:16,23,25, also Deuteronomy 27:15; 2 Kings 21:7; 2Chronicles 33:7; Isaiah 42:17; Isaiah 44:9; Isaiah 48:5; Nahum 1:14; Habakkuk 2:18 (of wood or stone, compare Habakkuk 2:19); of metal Judges 17:3,4 6t. 18 (compare GFM), Isaiah 40:19; Isaiah 44:10 (with נָסַךְ), Jeremiah 10:14; Jeremiah 51:17 (with צוֺרֵף); of wood Isaiah 40:20; Isaiah 44:15,17; Isaiah 45:20.

Hebrew Lexicon
Exodus 20:4; Exodus 20:5 (linked)

...........

CONCLUSION: So no Joe that was not my contention. My contention is that God's 2nd commandment is in reference to making "Idols" and bowing down to them and serving them or worshipping them according to God's 2nd Commandment in EXODUS 20:4-5. We do not make idols of photos and movies and bow down to them or worship them so your examples are not relevant. Although I believe everyrthing we are discussing now is relevan to the OP. As I believe we must turn away from following man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God, dont you?

Thanks for sharing Joe. May you receive God's WORD and be blessed.

 

[JoeT]

No need to apologize brother we are all only human and make mistakes. I do not believe your quote here correctly defines sin. While I believe we can sin in word, thought and action. If someone knows something is sin or does not know something is sin it does not mean something is not sin.

It simply means someone has not been given a knowledge that something is sin and in times of ignorance until someone knows better God does not hold them accountable to it *ACTS 17:30-31; JAMES 4:7. While it is true we are only held accountable to sin when we know it is sin "as Christians and believers of God's Word" sin is sin and is so regardless of our knowledge of it.

SIN is defined very clearly in God's Word as breaking any one of God's 10 Commandments and not believing and following God's Word *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4; ROMANS 7:7; ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 14:23.

What you’ve said to me is “involuntary sin is sin”. I disagree. While an involuntary sin, whether or not out of ignorance or compulsion from one’s exterior is not a culpable but is an evil act nonetheless. “The ignorance and infirmity which prevent a man from knowing his duty, or from doing all he wishes to do, belong to God's secret penal arrangement, and to His unfathomable judgments, for with Him there is no iniquity.” [St. Augustine, Against Faustus XXII, 78.]. God is just and will not hold us to those things we are compelled to do or done in ignorance. This by no means is to excuse culpable ignorance, a situation where one does not want to know to relieve him of just punishment - we hear this day in and day out as “plausible deniability”.

Sin is indeed ‘breaking any one of the 10 commandments - all of which are immoral acts. It was never suggested otherwise. Nevertheless, what is held against us is tempered by our motive (which is known to God) for any evil act.

Sorry brother I have never said such things and do not know why you are inferring I have. Although that being said I am sure there would have been genuine people at the time that did not know any better and thought what they were taught was from God's Word when in fact it was only a man made teaching that has no basis in God's Word and was only a man made teaching and traditions that broke the commandments of God *MATTHEW 15:3-9.

Let me speak plainly here brother. This section of your post is not true. Why? The application of CORBAN or "A GIFT" as a replacement for breaking God's 5th Commandment was a man-made teaching and tradition that brakes God's LAW. It is not biblical and found no where in God's Word.

This man-made teaching and tradition was applied to G2878 κορβᾶν korban or H7133 קָרְבָּן qorban which in the HEBREWS only has application to gift offerings

Thayer's Greek Lexicon STRONGS NT 2878: κορβᾶν

κορβᾶν (κορβᾶν WH; but see Tdf. Proleg., p. 102), indeclinable, and κορβανᾶς, accusative κορβᾶν (Buttmann, 20 (18)), ὁ (Hebrew קָרְבָּן i. e. an offering, the Sept. everywhere δῶρον, a term which comprehends all kinds of sacrifices, the bloody as well as the bloodless);

1. κορβᾶν, a gift offered (or to be offered) to God: Mark 7:11 (Josephus, Antiquities 4, 4, 4, of the Nazarites, οἱ κορβᾶν αὑτούς ὀνομασαντες τῷ Θεῷ, δῶρον δέ τοῦτο σημαίνει κατά Ἑλλήνων γλῶτταν; cf. contracted Apion. 1, 22, 4; (BB. DD. under the word, Corban; Ginsburg in the Bible Educator, 1:155)).

2. κορβανᾶς, κορβανα (see Buttmann, as above), the sacred treasury: Matthew 27:6 (L marginal reading Tr marginal reading κορβᾶν) (τόν ἱερόν θησαυρόν, καλεῖται δέ κορβανᾶς, Josephus, b. j. 2, 9, 4).

Brown-Driver-Briggs H7133 קָרְבָּן qorban

קָרְבָּן80 noun masculineLev 6:13 offering, oblation (Assyrian kurbannu, id., apparently always with כ DlHWB 351); — absolute ׳ק Leviticus 1:2 +; construct קָרְבַּן Leviticus 2:1 +; Sf. קָרְבָּנִי Numbers 28:2 plural suffix קָרְבְּנֵיהֶם Leviticus 7:38; — offering, oblation, General term for all kinds of offering (only Ezekiel Leviticus Numbers [H P]): animal Leviticus 1:2,3,10 +, vegetable Leviticus 2:1 (twice in verse); Leviticus 2:5 +, articles of gold Numbers 31:50, silver Numbers 7:13 +, etc., as accusative of congnate meaning with verb after הִקְרִיב Leviticus 1:2 (twice in verse); Leviticus 3:14; Numbers 6:14 + (see √ Hiph`il 2 b (5)); cstr מִנְחָה ׳ק Leviticus 2:1,4,13 רֵאשִׁית ׳ק Leviticus 2:12 אִשֶּׁה ׳ק Leviticus 22:27; ׳י ׳ק Numbers 9:7,13 (compareNumbers 31:50).

[קֻרְבָּן] noun [masculine] offering; — construct קֻרְבַּן הָעֵצִים wood-offering for second temple Nehemiah 10:35; Nehemiah 13:31.

II. קרב (√ of following; compare Assyrian kirbu, midst; Late Hebrew [קֶרֶב] plural entrails (rare); MI23,24 בקרב in the midst of the city; perhaps also Arabic heart).

There is only one reference applied to 2878. korban as a man made teaching and tradition and it is to

and it is to man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God *MARK 7:11 which was never the biblical application and teaching of qorban which is an application of all kinds of offering (see Brown-Driver-Briggs H7133 קָרְבָּן qorban definition and scripture application above).

Therefore the man made teaching and tradition that breaks God's 5th Commandment in MATTHEW 15:3-9 or MARK 7:5-13 applied to qorban was never biblical to begin with as it was a man-made teachings that is not biblical according to JESUS.

will continue...

There seems to be some misunderstanding, Strong’s 2878 is translated thing slaughtered, slaughtered meat, slaughter Strong's Hebrew: 2878. טִבְחָה (tibchah) -- thing slaughtered, slaughtered meat, slaughter Whereas Strong’s 7133. Qorban means “offering, oblation” Strong's Hebrew: 7133. קָרְבָן (qorban) -- oblation.

You’ll find Corban used in the parallel Gospel of Mark: "But you say: If a man shall say to his father or mother, Corban, (which is a gift,) whatsoever is from me shall profit thee." [Mark 7:11 DRV].
And in Matthew, "But the chief priests having taken the pieces of silver, said: It is not lawful to put them into the corbona, because it is the price of blood." [Matthew 27:6] Corban is a gift in the temple, a sacrifice, an oblation. Now, you need to tell me how God commanded of the Jews to make oblations but then Jesus holds those same oblations as hypocrisy unless they perverted the intent of the gift? How does it appear 83 times then is turned against the Jew for giving gifts, unless those gifts are given out of avarice motives? Or if you please explain how Jesus Christ’s corban, oblation, on the cross was unholy given, “In the which will, we are sanctified by the oblation of the body of Jesus Christ once." [Hebrews 10:10]

JoeT

 

[JoeT]

Not sure why you would think that brother when I am stating the very opposite.

Your response...


God's presence is in the SABBATH *GENESIS 2:1-3 but the SABBATH as defined in Gods' WORD as the SEVENTH DAY of the week *EXODUS 20:10. JESUS is not the SABBATH the SABBATH is the SEVENTH DAY and JESUS is the creator of it *MARK 2:28; JOHN 1:1-4; JOHN 1:14.

JESUS never broke the SABBATH or he could never have been our perfect sacrifice for sin. He taught us how to correctly keep the SABBATH and that he was the creator of it that he made for all mankind. None of the scriptures you have provided say that God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. Just the same as there is no scriptures that says "THE LORDS DAY" is Sunday or the first day of the week. This is only man made traditions that break the commandments of God as shown in MATTHEW 15:3-9; MARK 7:5-13.

I am sorry brother, why you would put this quote on equal footing to God's WORD is beyond me and in my view has no relevance to the discussion. If you have Gods' WORD for your tradition than share it. If you do not than your only following a teaching and tradition of men that break the commandments of God. It is true however that all who taught the reformation were called heretics by the Roman Catholic Church. This resulted in the Roman Catholic Church persecuting and killing up to 50 million Chrisitains because they turned away from following man made teachings in order to follow the pure Word of God.

"THE LORDS DAY" according to God's WORD is the SABBATH *MATTHEW 12:8. There is NO scripture that says that "THE LORDS DAY" is Sunday or the first day of the week. This application is also only a man made teaching and tradition that breaks the commandment of God which JESUS warns us about in MATTHEW 15:3-9; MARK 7:5-13.

God's 2nd commandment says..

EXODUS 20:4-5 [4], “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. [5] Thou shalt not bow down to them, nor serve them; for I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, recompensing the sins of the fathers upon the children, to the third and fourth generation to them that hate me,

an idol; פֶ֣֙סֶל֙ ׀‪‬ (p̄e·sel) Noun - masculine singular Strong's Hebrew 6459: An idol, image

Brown-Driver-Briggs
מֶּ֫סֶל31 noun masculineHabakkuk 2:18 idol, image; — absolute ׳פ Judges 17:3 +, מָּ֑סֶל Isaiah 42:17; construct מֶּסֶל Judges 18:31 +; suffix מִּסְלִי Isaiah 48:5, etc.; plural supplied by מְּסִילִים see following; — idol, as likeness of man or animal Exodus 20:4=Deuteronomy 5:8; Exodus 4:16,23,25, also Deuteronomy 27:15; 2 Kings 21:7; 2Chronicles 33:7; Isaiah 42:17; Isaiah 44:9; Isaiah 48:5; Nahum 1:14; Habakkuk 2:18 (of wood or stone, compare Habakkuk 2:19); of metal Judges 17:3,4 6t. 18 (compare GFM), Isaiah 40:19; Isaiah 44:10 (with נָסַךְ), Jeremiah 10:14; Jeremiah 51:17 (with צוֺרֵף); of wood Isaiah 40:20; Isaiah 44:15,17; Isaiah 45:20.

Hebrew Lexicon
Exodus 20:4; Exodus 20:5 (linked)

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CONCLUSION: So no Joe that was not my contention. My contention is that God's 2nd commandment is in reference to making "Idols" and bowing down to them and serving them or worshipping them according to God's 2nd Commandment in EXODUS 20:4-5. We do not make idols of photos and movies and bow down to them or worship them so your examples are not relevant. Although I believe everyrthing we are discussing now is relevan to the OP. As I believe we must turn away from following man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God, dont you?

Thanks for sharing Joe. May you receive God's WORD and be blessed.

Again the Sabbath was made for man not man made for the Sabbath. You are welcomed.

JoeT

 

[Adonia]

JESUS never broke the SABBATH or he could never have been our perfect sacrifice for sin. He taught us how to correctly keep the SABBATH and that he was the creator of it that he made for all mankind

Jesus was an observant Jew, we are not. We are Christians (followers of Christ) and his death and resurrection did away with the old law so that all could be acceptable to God. We don't have to follow the Jewish dietary laws, we don't have to be circumcised, and we don't have to follow all the Jewish High Holy Days. All that stuff is gone, it's over for us thanks to Jesus Christ, God Incarnate here on earth. And because of that we now offer Him worship on His own day, Sunday, and have done so for the last 2000 years. That was the plan, that is what happened, and now it's time for you to follow it.