GOD'S WORD vs THE TEACHINGS AND TRADITIONS OF MEN

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: ↑ No need to apologize brother we are all only human and make mistakes. I do not believe your quote here correctly defines sin. While I believe we can sin in word, thought and action. If someone knows something is sin or does not know something is sin it does not mean something is not sin. It simply means someone has not been given a knowledge that something is sin and in times of ignorance until someone knows better God does not hold them accountable to it *ACTS 17:30-31; JAMES 4:7. While it is true we are only held accountable to sin when we know it is sin "as Christians and believers of God's Word" sin is sin and is so regardless of our knowledge of it. SIN is defined very clearly in God's Word as breaking any one of God's 10 Commandments and not believing and following God's Word *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4; ROMANS 7:7; ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 14:23. [/QUOTE]
Your response..

What you’ve said to me is “involuntary sin is sin”. I disagree. While an involuntary sin, whether or not out of ignorance or compulsion from one’s exterior is not a culpable but is an evil act nonetheless. “The ignorance and infirmity which prevent a man from knowing his duty, or from doing all he wishes to do, belong to God's secret penal arrangement, and to His unfathomable judgments, for with Him there is no iniquity.” [St. Augustine, Against Faustus XXII, 78.]. God is just and will not hold us to those things we are compelled to do or done in ignorance. This by no means is to excuse culpable ignorance, a situation where one does not want to know to relieve him of just punishment - we hear this day in and day out as “plausible deniability”. Sin is indeed ‘breaking any one of the 10 commandments - all of which are immoral acts. It was never suggested otherwise. Nevertheless, what is held against us is tempered by our motive (which is known to God) for any evil act.

No Joe I said to you "involuntary sin is still sin that God does not hold his people accountable to until they receive a "KNOWLEDGE" of the truth. Then provided scripture proof in *ACTS 17:30-31 and JAMES 4:17. So the rest of this section of your post is not relevant.

There seems to be some misunderstanding, Strong’s 2878 is translated thing slaughtered, slaughtered meat, slaughter Strong's Hebrew: 2878. טִבְחָה (tibchah) -- thing slaughtered, slaughtered meat, slaughter Whereas Strong’s 7133. Qorban means “offering, oblation” Strong's Hebrew: 7133. קָרְבָן (qorban) -- oblation. You’ll find Corban used in the parallel Gospel of Mark: "But you say: If a man shall say to his father or mother, Corban, (which is a gift,) whatsoever is from me shall profit thee." [Mark 7:11 DRV]. And in Matthew, "But the chief priests having taken the pieces of silver, said: It is not lawful to put them into the corbona, because it is the price of blood." [Matthew 27:6] Corban is a gift in the temple, a sacrifice, an oblation. Now, you need to tell me how God commanded of the Jews to make oblations but then Jesus holds those same oblations as hypocrisy unless they perverted the intent of the gift? How does it appear 83 times then is turned against the Jew for giving gifts, unless those gifts are given out of avarice motives? Or if you please explain how Jesus Christ’s corban, oblation, on the cross was unholy given, “In the which will, we are sanctified by the oblation of the body of Jesus Christ once." [Hebrews 10:10]

Joe there is no misunderstanding my side. Links added below are the GREEK and HEBREW word definitions and scripture application to CORBAN from MARK 7:11.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon STRONGS NT 2878: corban κορβᾶν
κορβᾶν (κορβᾶν WH; but see Tdf. Proleg., p. 102), indeclinable, and κορβανᾶς, accusative κορβᾶν (Buttmann, 20 (18)), ὁ (Hebrew קָרְבָּן i. e. an offering, the Sept. everywhere δῶρον, a term which comprehends all kinds of sacrifices, the bloody as well as the bloodless);
1. κορβᾶν, a gift offered (or to be offered) to God: Mark 7:11 (Josephus, Antiquities 4, 4, 4, of the Nazarites, οἱ κορβᾶν αὑτούς ὀνομασαντες τῷ Θεῷ, δῶρον δέ τοῦτο σημαίνει κατά Ἑλλήνων γλῶτταν; cf. contracted Apion. 1, 22, 4; (BB. DD. under the word, Corban; Ginsburg in the Bible Educator, 1:155)).
2. κορβανᾶς, κορβανα (see Buttmann, as above), the sacred treasury: Matthew 27:6 (L marginal reading Tr marginal reading κορβᾶν) (τόν ἱερόν θησαυρόν, καλεῖται δέ κορβανᾶς, Josephus, b. j. 2, 9, 4).

Brown-Driver-Briggs H7133 קָרְבָּן qorban
קָרְבָּן80 noun masculineLev 6:13 offering, oblation (Assyrian kurbannu, id., apparently always with כ DlHWB 351); — absolute ׳ק Leviticus 1:2 +; construct קָרְבַּן Leviticus 2:1 +; Sf. קָרְבָּנִי Numbers 28:2 plural suffix קָרְבְּנֵיהֶם Leviticus 7:38; — offering, oblation, General term for all kinds of offering (only Ezekiel Leviticus Numbers [H P]): animal Leviticus 1:2,3,10 +, vegetable Leviticus 2:1 (twice in verse); Leviticus 2:5 +, articles of gold Numbers 31:50, silver Numbers 7:13 +, etc., as accusative of congnate meaning with verb after הִקְרִיב Leviticus 1:2 (twice in verse); Leviticus 3:14; Numbers 6:14 + (see √ Hiph`il 2 b (5)); cstr מִנְחָה ׳ק Leviticus 2:1,4,13 רֵאשִׁית ׳ק Leviticus 2:12 אִשֶּׁה ׳ק Leviticus 22:27; ׳י ׳ק Numbers 9:7,13 (compareNumbers 31:50).
[קֻרְבָּן] noun [masculine] offering; — construct קֻרְבַּן הָעֵצִים wood-offering for second temple Nehemiah 10:35; Nehemiah 13:31.
II. קרב (√ of following; compare Assyrian kirbu, midst; Late Hebrew [קֶרֶב] plural entrails (rare); MI23,24 בקרב in the midst of the city; perhaps also Arabic

heart).

There is only one reference applied to 2878. korban as a man made teaching and tradition and it is to
and it is to man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God *MARK 7:11 which was never the biblical application and teaching of qorban which is an application of all kinds of offering (see Brown-Driver-Briggs H7133 קָרְבָּן qorban definition and scripture application above).

Therefore the man made teaching and tradition that breaks God's 5th Commandment in MATTHEW 15:3-9 or MARK 7:5-13 applied to qorban was never biblical to begin with as it was a man-made teachings that is not biblical according to JESUS.

You are in error here Joe. The application of CORBAN to man made teachings and tradtions that break the commandments of God is not biblical. This is what JESUS is saying in MATTHEW 15:3-9 and MARK 7:5-13

Hope this is helpful

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: ↑ God's presence is in the SABBATH *GENESIS 2:1-3 but the SABBATH as defined in Gods' WORD as the SEVENTH DAY of the week *EXODUS 20:10. JESUS is not the SABBATH the SABBATH is the SEVENTH DAY and JESUS is the creator of it *MARK 2:28; JOHN 1:1-4; JOHN 1:14.

JESUS never broke the SABBATH or he could never have been our perfect sacrifice for sin. He taught us how to correctly keep the SABBATH and that he was the creator of it that he made for all mankind. None of the scriptures you have provided say that God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. Just the same as there is no scriptures that says "THE LORDS DAY" is Sunday or the first day of the week. This is only man made traditions that break the commandments of God as shown in MATTHEW 15:3-9; MARK 7:5-13.

I am sorry brother, why you would put this quote on equal footing to God's WORD is beyond me and in my view has no relevance to the discussion. If you have Gods' WORD for your tradition than share it. If you do not than your only following a teaching and tradition of men that break the commandments of God. It is true however that all who taught the reformation were called heretics by the Roman Catholic Church. This resulted in the Roman Catholic Church persecuting and killing up to 50 million Chrisitains because they turned away from following man made teachings in order to follow the pure Word of God.

"THE LORDS DAY" according to God's WORD is the SABBATH *MATTHEW 12:8. There is NO scripture that says that "THE LORDS DAY" is Sunday or the first day of the week. This application is also only a man made teaching and tradition that breaks the commandment of God which JESUS warns us about in MATTHEW 15:3-9; MARK 7:5-13.

God's 2nd commandment says..

EXODUS 20:4-5 [4], “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. [5] Thou shalt not bow down to them, nor serve them; for I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, recompensing the sins of the fathers upon the children, to the third and fourth generation to them that hate me,

an idol; פֶ֣֙סֶל֙ ׀‪‬ (p̄e·sel) Noun - masculine singular Strong's Hebrew 6459: An idol, image

Brown-Driver-Briggs
מֶּ֫סֶל31 noun masculineHabakkuk 2:18 idol, image; — absolute ׳פ Judges 17:3 +, מָּ֑סֶל Isaiah 42:17; construct מֶּסֶל Judges 18:31 +; suffix מִּסְלִי Isaiah 48:5, etc.; plural supplied by מְּסִילִים see following; — idol, as likeness of man or animal Exodus 20:4=Deuteronomy 5:8; Exodus 4:16,23,25, also Deuteronomy 27:15; 2 Kings 21:7; 2Chronicles 33:7; Isaiah 42:17; Isaiah 44:9; Isaiah 48:5; Nahum 1:14; Habakkuk 2:18 (of wood or stone, compare Habakkuk 2:19); of metal Judges 17:3,4 6t. 18 (compare GFM), Isaiah 40:19; Isaiah 44:10 (with נָסַךְ), Jeremiah 10:14; Jeremiah 51:17 (with צוֺרֵף); of wood Isaiah 40:20; Isaiah 44:15,17; Isaiah 45:20.

Hebrew Lexicon
Exodus 20:4; Exodus 20:5 (linked)

...........

CONCLUSION: So no Joe that was not my contention. My contention is that God's 2nd commandment is in reference to making "Idols" and bowing down to them and serving them or worshipping them according to God's 2nd Commandment in EXODUS 20:4-5. We do not make idols of photos and movies and bow down to them or worship them so your examples are not relevant. Although I believe everyrthing we are discussing now is relevan to the OP. As I believe we must turn away from following man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God, dont you?

Thanks for sharing Joe. May you receive God's WORD and be blessed.

Your response...

Again the Sabbath was made for man not man made for the Sabbath. You are welcomed. JoeT

Sorry brother please forgive me as I have no idea how what you post here (which is what I have been posting to you) addresses anything in that section of the post you are quoting from and trying to address. You may need to explain yourself a little better.

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: ↑ JESUS never broke the SABBATH or he could never have been our perfect sacrifice for sin. He taught us how to correctly keep the SABBATH and that he was the creator of it that he made for all mankind *MARK 2:27-28

Your response...

Jesus was an observant Jew, we are not. We are Christians (followers of Christ) and his death and resurrection did away with the old law so that all could be acceptable to God. We don't have to follow the Jewish dietary laws, we don't have to be circumcised, and we don't have to follow all the Jewish High Holy Days. All that stuff is gone, it's over for us thanks to Jesus Christ, God Incarnate here on earth. And because of that we now offer Him worship on His own day, Sunday, and have done so for the last 2000 years. That was the plan, that is what happened, and now it's time for you to follow it.

Well that is not true brother. According to JESUS the SABBATH was made for all mankind and he is the creator of it *MARK 2:27-28. There was no JEWS, no ISRAEL no SIN when JESUS created the SABBATH for mankind and all the Apostles continued keeping God's 4th commandment SABBATH after the death, burial and resurrection of JESUS according to the scriptures *Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Revelation 1:10.

Don't forget more words of JESUS here...

MATTHEW 5:17-19 [17], Think not that I am come to ABOLISH (καταλῦσαι) the law, or the prophets: I am not come to ABOLISH (καταλῦσαι), but to fulfill. [18], For truly I say to you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS NOT ONE DOT OR TITLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, till all be fulfilled.
[19], Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [20], For I say to you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I choose to believe God's WORD and so should you...

 

[JoeT]

Your response...


Sorry brother please forgive me as I have no idea how what you post here (which is what I have been posting to you) addresses anything in that section of the post you are quoting from and trying to address. You may need to explain yourself a little better.

I was alluding to Mark 2:27-28. The Lord's day was kept in Sacred Scripture. The Church, with the power of the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ "whatsoever you [the Church] shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven." [Matthew 18:18]. Consequently, if the Church says to keep the Lord's day, then I keep the Lord's day.



JoeT

 

[3rdAngel]

I was alluding to Mark 2:27-28. The Lord's day was kept in Sacred Scripture. The Church, with the power of the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ "whatsoever you [the Church] shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven." [Matthew 18:18]. Consequently, if the Church says to keep the Lord's day, then I keep the Lord's day.

JoeT

Thanks Joe but there is no scripture that says "THE LORDS DAY" is Sunday or the first day of the week. According to God's WORD and the very words of JESUS (not mine) "THE LORDS DAY" is the "SABBATH DAY" *MATTHEW 12:8. The application of "SUNDAY" to "THE LORDS DAY" is a man made teaching and tradition that has no basis in God's Word and is not biblical

God bless

 

[JoeT]

Thanks Joe but there is no scripture that says "THE LORDS DAY" is Sunday or the first day of the week. According to God's WORD and the very words of JESUS (not mine) "THE LORDS DAY" is the "SABBATH DAY" *MATTHEW 12:8. The application of "SUNDAY" to "THE LORDS DAY" is a man made teaching and tradition that has no basis in God's Word and is not biblical

God bless

The Lord's Day is great and manifest!

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and manifest day of the Lord come." [Acts 2:20 DRV.]

The Lord's day will declare your works!
Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is." [1 Corinthians 3:13 DRV.]

Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week." [ Cf. Mt 28:1; Mk 16:2; Lk 24:1; Jn 20:1] Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath [Cf. Mk 16:1; Mt 28:1], it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:

We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead. [CCC 2174]​

Jesus Christ, the Logos or Wisdom rested from the first creation [[Proverbs 8:21-30] on the last day, or the 7the day of the week. And all of creation was re-made into a new Kingdom on the day Jesus Christ finished His work on the 8th day of the week - your Sunday - when He defeated death.

JoeT

 

[Yeshua1]

THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN - GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN

The very same topics that we discuss here were also discussed in the days of Jesus. The mainstream preachers of Christ's time all claimed to be Children of God because their claim was that they were the Children of Abraham right? This was their claim to being God's people.

JOHN 8:33-45 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say thou, Ye shall be made free?

They claimed belief on the God of Abraham, they claimed to be in bondage to no man. But what did Jesus tell them...............?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

There is more on this engagement between Jesus and the Mainstream God of Abraham preachers of His time in John 8.

Certainly the Pharisees studied the bible as it existed then. AS did Jesus.

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Yet these two factions, Jesus and the Mainstream preachers of His time had almost opposite understandings of the Bible.

It is fair to say not all Jews of that time had the same understanding as the Mainstream Preachers.

Luke 1:5-6 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

So there seems to be a trend here.

The Mainstream Preachers claimed to be God's people, they read God's Words, yet they "Transgressed the Commandments of God by their own doctrines and traditions." (Matthew 15:3-9)

Yet there is no indication that Zacharias or Jesus did this and followed them.

So we have one example of understanding that was gained by study in obedience to the instructions in God's Word, ( Zacharias and Jesus)

And another example of study in disobedience to the instructions of God's Word. (Mainstream preachers of that time)

There were more than just Zacharias.

Matthew 2:1-2 1, Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Here is another example of people who had a completely different understanding than the Mainstream preachers of that time. Is it wrong to assume that they, like Zacharias, also studied in obedience to the instruction?

And Peter, which side of this topic did he fall on?

Acts 5:32-33 33, And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.

Now why was it that the Jews sought to persecute Jesus and the prophets? It was because they refused to obey the instruction of God, and created their own instructions, and the other example did not.

So fast forward to today. We have a Mainstream Christian teaching that "Transgresses the Commandments of God by their own traditions and doctrines."

This is not a judgment, rather, a simple fact.

It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to transgress God's Sabbath Commandment and replace it with the Catholic Sabbath (Sunday worship). It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to create images of God in the likeness of some long haired men's shampoo model, transgressing the first and greatest commandment.

It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to transgress God's Food Laws, and create their own definition of clean and unclean.

So it seems that even today, if a person studies in obedience to God's simple instructions he see's the scripture one way.

If a person studies scripture in disobedience following the traditions and teachings of man in place of God's Word and to God's simple instructions, he sees the scripture in another way.

I believe what Peter taught, that the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth) is given to those who do not "Transgress the Commandments of God by their own religious doctrines and traditions.

But I also know from Peter and Jesus that this belief will infuriate "many" who come in Christ's/God's name.

23 "When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them."

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved."

My hope is that you might consider these words and understand.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (Is it evil or righteous to transgress the commandments of God by doctrines and traditions of men?)

20 For every one that doeth evil (Transgress God's Commandments by their own Traditions) hates the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Is this why the Mainstream preachers of Peters time set about to kill or silence Peter, so he wouldn't expose their transgression of God's Commandments?

21 But he that does truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest,.(let your light shine) that they are wrought in God.

So a circle complete once again. Those who live a doctrine created (wrought) by God have a different understanding than those who live a doctrine created by man who follow the traditions of man. The above was shared with me recently by a friend. I hope it was a blessing to you as it was for me.

Now the important question is who should we obey God or man...............?

..........................................................................................................................
NOTE: PLEASE NO FLAMING OR GOADING; THIS IS A DISCUSSION THREAD ONLY FOR
SHARING GOD'S WORD IN LOVE; FRIENDLY DISCUSSION PLEASE!
.......................................................................................................................

Thanks also to a friend for the inspiration and contribution to this OP. May God bless you as you all as you seek him through His Word.

...........

QUESTIONS

1. If we follow man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God are we following God or man *MATTHEW 15:3-9?

2. If there is no scripture for following teachings and traditions that are against or opposed to Gods' WORD who should we be following God or man? *ACTS 5:29

You are the one following traditions of false teachers though, as you try to mix the Law and the Gospel, and end up with another and false Gospel!
Did God save you by faith alone thru grace alone in the person and work of Jesus, or are you adding something in addition to that for your salvation?

 

[3rdAngel]

You are the one following traditions of false teachers though, as you try to mix the Law and the Gospel, and end up with another and false Gospel!

You are confused brother and this is sad for you as you have no scripture or proof for your claims so now you simply resort to name calling and promoting false accusations you cannot prove from the scriptures because you have no scripture for your unbiblical teachings of "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED". I will pull you up here as your claims in your posts have no truth in them and are misleading. So let's start by answering your question so you know exactly what I believe.

Your question...."Did God save you by faith alone thru grace alone in the person and work of Jesus, or are you adding something in addition to that for your salvation?"

We are only saved only by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not by works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. OBEDIENCE to God's Word is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith. We are all sinners in need of a Saviour and God's salvation to save us from our sins. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments). Salvation is not that of the false gospel of "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" that teaches we can to continue in sin and still receive God's salvation and his promises *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36; 1 JOHN 2:1-4; 1 JOHN 3:3-10.

Those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not know God and need to be Born again into the NEW COVENANT promise to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10; JOHN 3:3-8; 1 JOHN 3:3-10. This is God's work in us and a part of the NEW COVENANT promise of a new heart to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50 and if we sin willfully after we recieve a knowledge of the truth there remains no sacrifice for sin and a fearful looking forward to of the judgment to come *HEBREWS 10:26-39.

I believe God's Word and Gods Word is not my word but Gods. JESUS says you shall know them by their fruits JOHN 15:1-10. What are your fruits dear brother when God gives you a knowledge of the truth showing you through the scriptures alone that there is no scripture that says Gods 4th commandment Sabbath has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

If you claim there is no law in the Gospel it is because you do not understand what the Gospel is. How can you separate Gods' LAW from the Gospel when it is a part of the gospel? God's LAW according to God's WORD in the NEW COVENANT gives us a "KNOWLEDGE" of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 3:20 and all have sinned (broken God's LAW *1 JOHN 3:4) and fall short of the glory of God *ROMANS 3:23 and the wages of sin is death. In order to receive Gods' gift *ROMANS 6:23 God reveals to us that we are all sinners under God's condemnation in order for him to reveal JESUS to us. God's LAW leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25.

But you teach "NO LAW" "NO LAW" when it is the very law that shows us that we are all sinners in need of salvation. JESUS says they that be whole need not a physician but they who are sick go learn what that means. I have not come to call the rightoues but sinners to repentance *MATTHEW 9:12-13.

Please brother tell me how can you know you are a sinner in need of a Saviour when you do not have God's LAW when it is the LAW accorind to God's WORD that gives us the "KNOWLEDGE" or what sin is when we break it?

* If we have no knowledge of what sin is than we do not know that we are sinners *ROMANS 7:7.
* If we do not know we are sinners we have no need of a Saviour *MATTHEW 9:12-13
* If we have no Savior then we have no salvation because we are still in our sins and the wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23.

Now what is the false Gospel? Is it all the Word of God? Or is it the false Gospel that separates God's LAW that leads us to God's GRACE and gives us a knowledge of what sin is and leads us to the Cross of Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25?

May you receive Gods WORD and be blessed.

 

[3rdAngel]

The Lord's Day is great and manifest!

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and manifest day of the Lord come." [Acts 2:20 DRV.]

The Lord's day will declare your works!
Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is." [1 Corinthians 3:13 DRV.]

Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week." [ Cf. Mt 28:1; Mk 16:2; Lk 24:1; Jn 20:1] Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath [Cf. Mk 16:1; Mt 28:1], it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:

We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead. [CCC 2174]​

Jesus Christ, the Logos or Wisdom rested from the first creation [[Proverbs 8:21-30] on the last day, or the 7the day of the week. And all of creation was re-made into a new Kingdom on the day Jesus Christ finished His work on the 8th day of the week - your Sunday - when He defeated death.

JoeT

Joe, there is no scripture for anything you are claiming here brother. Can you show me a single scripture that says that "SUNDAY" or the first day of the week is "THE LORDS DAY"? God's Word (not mine) says that "THE LORDS DAY" is the SABBATH DAY *MATTHEW 12:8.

Can you show me a single scripture that says that God's 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday or the first day of the week as a Holy day? If you have no scripture than this is only a man made tradition and teaching that breaks the commandments of God *MARK 7:5-13.

There are none of these symbols written into the scriptures that you are claiming. These are things that are read into the scriptures by others that are not in the scripture and these are simply man made teachings and traditions to try and justify breaking the commandments of God. JESUS warns us about doing this in *MATTHEW 15:3-9; MARK 7:5-13; HEBREWS 10:26-39.

May you receive God's WORD and be blessed.

 

[Yeshua1]

You are confused brother and this is sad for you as you have no scripture or proof for your claims so now you simply resort to name calling and promoting false accusations you cannot prove from the scriptures because you have no scripture for your unbiblical teachings of "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED". I will pull you up here as your claims in your posts have no truth in them and are misleading. So let's start by answering your question so you know exactly what I believe.

Your question...."Did God save you by faith alone thru grace alone in the person and work of Jesus, or are you adding something in addition to that for your salvation?"

We are only saved only by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not by works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. OBEDIENCE to God's Word is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith. We are all sinners in need of a Saviour and God's salvation to save us from our sins. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments). Salvation is not that of the false gospel of "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" that teaches we can to continue in sin and still receive God's salvation and his promises *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36; 1 JOHN 2:1-4; 1 JOHN 3:3-10.

Those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not know God and need to be Born again into the NEW COVENANT promise to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10; JOHN 3:3-8; 1 JOHN 3:3-10. This is God's work in us and a part of the NEW COVENANT promise of a new heart to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50 and if we sin willfully after we recieve a knowledge of the truth there remains no sacrifice for sin and a fearful looking forward to of the judgment to come *HEBREWS 10:26-39.

I believe God's Word and Gods Word is not my word but Gods. JESUS says you shall know them by their fruits JOHN 15:1-10. What are your fruits dear brother when God gives you a knowledge of the truth showing you through the scriptures alone that there is no scripture that says Gods 4th commandment Sabbath has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

If you claim there is no law in the Gospel it is because you do not understand what the Gospel is. How can you separate Gods' LAW from the Gospel when it is a part of the gospel? God's LAW according to God's WORD in the NEW COVENANT gives us a "KNOWLEDGE" of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 3:20 and all have sinned (broken God's LAW *1 JOHN 3:4) and fall short of the glory of God *ROMANS 3:23 and the wages of sin is death. In order to receive Gods' gift *ROMANS 6:23 God reveals to us that we are all sinners under God's condemnation in order for him to reveal JESUS to us. God's LAW leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25.

But you teach "NO LAW" "NO LAW" when it is the very law that shows us that we are all sinners in need of salvation. JESUS says they that be whole need not a physician but they who are sick go learn what that means. I have not come to call the rightoues but sinners to repentance *MATTHEW 9:12-13.

Please brother tell me how can you know you are a sinner in need of a Saviour when you do not have God's LAW when it is the LAW accorind to God's WORD that gives us the "KNOWLEDGE" or what sin is when we break it?

* If we have no knowledge of what sin is than we do not know that we are sinners *ROMANS 7:7.
* If we do not know we are sinners we have no need of a Saviour *MATTHEW 9:12-13
* If we have no Savior then we have no salvation because we are still in our sins and the wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23.

Now what is the false Gospel? Is it all the Word of God? Or is it the false Gospel that separates God's LAW that leads us to God's GRACE and gives us a knowledge of what sin is and leads us to the Cross of Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25?

May you receive Gods WORD and be blessed.

What does God require us to do to get saved that Jesus did not already do for us then? What sin can we do after saved that forfeits salvation?

 

[3rdAngel]

What does God require us to do to get saved that Jesus did not already do for us then? What sin can we do after saved that forfeits salvation?

HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries

Any "UNREPENTANT SIN" that we do willfully after we receive a "KNOWLEDGE" of the truth will keep you all those who practice it out of God's KINGDOM. SIN (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10; MATTHEW 7:22-26.

Now my turn to ask a question....

Where is the scripture that says God's 4th Commandment which is one of God's 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20 has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day? If there is no scripture for this teaching and tradition that breaks the commandments of God who do you follow; God or man?

May you receive Gods' Word and be blessed.

God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him

 

[JoeT]

Joe, there is no scripture for anything you are claiming here brother. Can you show me a single scripture that says that "SUNDAY" or the first day of the week is "THE LORDS DAY"? God's Word (not mine) says that "THE LORDS DAY" is the SABBATH DAY *MATTHEW 12:8.

Can you show me a single scripture that says that God's 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday or the first day of the week as a Holy day? If you have no scripture than this is only a man made tradition and teaching that breaks the commandments of God *MARK 7:5-13.

There are none of these symbols written into the scriptures that you are claiming. These are things that are read into the scriptures by others that are not in the scripture and these are simply man made teachings and traditions to try and justify breaking the commandments of God. JESUS warns us about doing this in *MATTHEW 15:3-9; MARK 7:5-13; HEBREWS 10:26-39.

May you receive God's WORD and be blessed.

Try reading

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and manifest day of the Lord come." [Acts 2:20 DRV.]


"Manifest the day of the Lord come."

"manifest" = Readily perceived or make clear.
and what is made clear, day but what day?

"Day of the Lord" = the Lord's Day, is the DAY OF THE LORD. And what happened on that day?

Ok lets do the next verse.

Every man's work shall be manifest; for the Day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is." [1 Corinthians 3:13 DRV.]

Once again, "Day of the Lord" = the Lord's Day. Does your work include the Real Presence on the Day of the Lord, aka the Lord's day.

JoeT

 

[3rdAngel]

Try reading

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and manifest day of the Lord come." [Acts 2:20 DRV.]

"Manifest the day of the Lord come."

"manifest" = Readily perceived or make clear.
and what is made clear, day but what day?

"Day of the Lord" = the Lord's Day, is the DAY OF THE LORD. And what happened on that day?

Ok lets do the next verse.

Every man's work shall be manifest; for the Day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is." [1 Corinthians 3:13 DRV.]

Once again, "Day of the Lord" = the Lord's Day. Does your work include the Real Presence on the Day of the Lord, aka the Lord's day.

JoeT

Sorry Joe your wrong here brother and here is why from the scriptures alone..

Your mixing up the "SECOND COMINGS" references of the "DAY OF THE LORD" that will be burnt with fire with that of REVELATION 1:10. Unlike the scripture phrase the "DAY OF THE LORD", the phrase "THE LORDS DAY" is only found once in scripture. In REVELATION 1:10 the apostle John wrote, “I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet.” Both have different meanings based on their application used within the scriptures.

This is proven in looking at the GREEK or HEBREW word meanings and also the scripture context that these words are applied to. For example "THE LORDS DAY" is in reference to REVELATION 1:10 where JOHN states at the beginning of the book of REVELATION in chapter 1 that he was having a VISION or he was in the Spirit on "THE LORDS DAY".

The GREEK words used here is that JOHN was in the SPIRIT on "THE LORDS DAY" that is; κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ meaning here is in reference to the Lord's ownership of the day; κυριακῇ From G2962; means belonging to the Lord (Jehovah or Jesus): - Lord's. ἡμέρᾳ meaning; Feminine (with G5610 implied) of a derivative of ἧμαι hēmai (to sit ; akin to the base of G1476) a day, that is, (literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours.

So the meaning here of REVELATION 1:10 of "THE LORDS DAY" means the the day belonging to the Lord and this day belonging to the LORD *MATTHEW 12:8 defines as the SABBATH day that God set aside, BLESSED and made HOLY for mankind as a memorial of creation *MATTHEW 12:8; MARK 2:27-28; GENESIS 2:1-3 and it was this day that JOHN was having his VISIONS as he was "in the Spirit".

..............

Now let's look at the scripture references to "DAY OF THE LORD" as the application of "THE LORDS DAY" in the scriptures used here is not the same as being in the Spirit on "THE LORDS DAY" as shown above. In fact the application to the "DAY OF THE LORD" is in reference to the "2ND COMING" Now we have defined the application of "THE LORDS DAY" as shown above, let's look at your scripture and some other scriptures and look at the application of "DAY OF THE LORD" and how it is used.

Unlike the application of "THE LORDS DAY" the application of "DAY OF THE LORD" is to the 2nd coming and God's judgments

ACTS 20:19-21 [19], And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: [20], The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the LORD COME. [21], And it shall come to pass, that whoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

These scriptures have their origin to the 2nd coming and the judgments of God being poured out to the wicked and in every application used as "DAY OF THE LORD" is also to the 2nd coming and the judgments of God being poured out to the wicked * Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, 9; 34:8; Joel 1:15; 2:1, 11, 31; 3:14; Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:7-8, 14, 18; 2:3; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:5; 1Thessalonians 5:2 and 2nd Peter 3:10. All of these passages speak of a time when God will intervene directly in the world with judgments upon the wicked, unbelieving masses who have rejected the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. It includes the Second Coming of Christ in power and glory to establish His kingdom on earth (see Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-12; Revelation 19:11-16; 20:1-4. It also includes the destruction of the present heavens and earth at the very end of Christ’s Millennial Kingdom (see 2 Peter 3:10-12).

Hope this is helpful

 

[Yeshua1]

HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries

Any "UNREPENTANT SIN" that we do willfully after we receive a "KNOWLEDGE" of the truth will keep you all those who practice it out of God's KINGDOM. SIN (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10; MATTHEW 7:22-26.

Now my turn to ask a question....

Where is the scripture that says God's 4th Commandment which is one of God's 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20 has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day? If there is no scripture for this teaching and tradition that breaks the commandments of God who do you follow; God or man?

May you receive Gods' Word and be blessed.

God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him

That Hebrews verse refers to those who denied the Cross of Christ, and tried to live by the Law again, denying the Grace of God,,, You know, like keeping dietary laws and Sabbath to appease God!

 

[3rdAngel]

That Hebrews verse refers to those who denied the Cross of Christ, and tried to live by the Law again, denying the Grace of God,,, You know, like keeping dietary laws and Sabbath to appease God!

Nope! No they do not.

HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries

They are talking about those"SIN WILLFULLY" by breaking anyone of God's Commandments *JAMES 2:10-11 and reject God's Word *ROMANS 14:23 after they have received a "KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH" *JAMES 4:17.

You know like breaking God's 4th commandment in order to follow man made teachings and traditions over the Word of God like JESUS talks about *MATTHEW 15:3-9.

May you receive Gods' Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it dissappear.

 

[MarysSon]

THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN - GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN

The very same topics that we discuss here were also discussed in the days of Jesus. The mainstream preachers of Christ's time all claimed to be Children of God because their claim was that they were the Children of Abraham right? This was their claim to being God's people.

JOHN 8:33-45 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say thou, Ye shall be made free?

They claimed belief on the God of Abraham, they claimed to be in bondage to no man. But what did Jesus tell them...............?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

There is more on this engagement between Jesus and the Mainstream God of Abraham preachers of His time in John 8.

Certainly the Pharisees studied the bible as it existed then. AS did Jesus.

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Yet these two factions, Jesus and the Mainstream preachers of His time had almost opposite understandings of the Bible.

It is fair to say not all Jews of that time had the same understanding as the Mainstream Preachers.

Luke 1:5-6 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

So there seems to be a trend here.

The Mainstream Preachers claimed to be God's people, they read God's Words, yet they "Transgressed the Commandments of God by their own doctrines and traditions." (Matthew 15:3-9)

Yet there is no indication that Zacharias or Jesus did this and followed them.

So we have one example of understanding that was gained by study in obedience to the instructions in God's Word, ( Zacharias and Jesus)

And another example of study in disobedience to the instructions of God's Word. (Mainstream preachers of that time)

There were more than just Zacharias.

Now why was it that the Jews sought to persecute Jesus and the prophets? It was because they refused to obey the instruction of God, and created their own instructions, and the other example did not.

So fast forward to today. We have a Mainstream Christian teaching that "Transgresses the Commandments of God by their own traditions and doctrines."

This is not a judgment, rather, a simple fact.

It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to transgress God's Sabbath Commandment and replace it with the Catholic Sabbath (Sunday worship). It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to create images of God in the likeness of some long haired men's shampoo model, transgressing the first and greatest commandment.

It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to transgress God's Food Laws, and create their own definition of clean and unclean.

So it seems that even today, if a person studies in obedience to God's simple instructions he see's the scripture one way.

If a person studies scripture in disobedience following the traditions and teachings of man in place of God's Word and to God's simple instructions, he sees the scripture in another way.

I believe what Peter taught, that the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth) is given to those who do not "Transgress the Commandments of God by their own religious doctrines and traditions.

But I also know from Peter and Jesus that this belief will infuriate "many" who come in Christ's/God's name.

23 "When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them."

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved."

My hope is that you might consider these words and understand.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (Is it evil or righteous to transgress the commandments of God by doctrines and traditions of men?)

20 For every one that doeth evil (Transgress God's Commandments by their own Traditions) hates the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Is this why the Mainstream preachers of Peters time set about to kill or silence Peter, so he wouldn't expose their transgression of God's Commandments?

21 But he that does truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest,.(let your light shine) that they are wrought in God.

So a circle complete once again. Those who live a doctrine created (wrought) by God have a different understanding than those who live a doctrine created by man who follow the traditions of man. The above was shared with me recently by a friend. I hope it was a blessing to you as it was for me.

Now the important question is who should we obey God or man...............?


QUESTIONS

1. If we follow man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God are we following God or man *MATTHEW 15:3-9?

2. If there is no scripture for following teachings and traditions that are against or opposed to Gods' WORD who should we be following God or man? *ACTS 5:29

Your questions are based on a false premise - SEVERAL, in fact.

Let's start with YOUR disapproval of the Biblical practice of Sunday worship.
Paul wrote:
Col. 2:16-17
Let no one, then, pass judgment on you in matters of food and drink or with regard to a festival or new moon OR SABBATH.These are shadows of things to come; the reality belongs to Christ.

The NT Church met on SUNDAY - the FIRST day of the week - The Lord's Day.

As to YOUR rejection of the Biblical practice of the doing away with food restrictions - you are wrong here as well..
Once again - this was a SHADOW of what was to come. the reality was found in Christ (Col. 2:16-17) who fulfilled the Law. You are stuck on works of the Law - and Jesus FULFILLED the Law. We are no longer bound by ceremonial OR cleanliness OR dietary laws.

As for what YOU erroneously refer to as "traditions of men" - The Bible tells a different story.
Scripture puts Apostolic or Sacred Tradition - ON PAR with Scripture.
2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a letter from us."

Many anti-Catholics point to this and claim that this was ONLY good until the Bible was written.
HOWEVER - there is NO expiration date on 2 Thess. 2:15 . . .

Finally - Christ gave SUPREME earthly Authority to His Church - that WHATEVER it declared on earth would also be declared in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23)..
He even went so far as to compare His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).

 

[3rdAngel]

Hello MarysSon, I am JESUS son nice to meet you.

Your questions are based on a false premise - SEVERAL, in fact.

Let's deal with all of your claims section by section and scripture by scripture and bring everything to Gods' Word to see if what we are both saying is true or not true. I am sure I do not want to be found in error brother denying Gods' Word and following man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God as JESUS warns us about this practice in MATTHEW 15:3-9. My prayer is that you would want to find yourself in this position as well. So let's bring all our claims to God's Word because according to Gods Word only God's Word is true and we and it is the only source of God's truth *ROMANS 3:4

Let's start with YOUR disapproval of the Biblical practice of Sunday worship. Paul wrote: Col. 2:16-17 Let no one, then, pass judgment on you in matters of food and drink or with regard to a festival or new moon OR SABBATH.These are shadows of things to come; the reality belongs to Christ.

Surface readers are like sifting sand going nowhere and cherry picking scripture taken out of the within chapter and scripture context does not give the meaning or topic of conversation. So that being said let's first examine your claims here that COLOSSIANS 2:16 is in reference to God's 4th Commandment "SEVENTH DAY SABBATH" as being a "SHADOW LAW *COLOSSIANS 2:17 or is it talking about something else?

Many people pull up COLOSSIANS 2:16 without considering

1. THE CHAPTER CONTEXT
2. THE WITHIN SCRIPTURE CONTEXT
3. THE GREEK WORD MEANINGS OF THE WITHIN SCRIPTURE CONTEXT
4. CONTEXT TO THE REST OF THE SCRIPTURE WITHIN ALL SCRIPTURE

In the days of JESUS and the Disciples their bible was the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures so everything that we have in the NEW TESTAMENT scriptures comes from the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures.

The point being made here is that much of the NEW TESTAMENT has direct links and is directly quoting OLD TESTAMENT scripture which with a prayerful study of God's Word can help us understand the meanings and context of what is being discussed in the NEW TESTAMENT which in many cases are a fulfillment of the OLD SHADOW laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7.

I would like to propose an evaluation of COLOSSIANS 2:16-17 using all of the above applied to COLOSSIANS 2 for chapter context and in particular COLOSSIANS 2:16 for within scripture context linking the scritures from the OLD TESTAMENT that are being discussed here.

The reason being, many people try to simply use a single NEW TESTAMENT scripture (COLOSSIANS 2:16) which they pull out of the CHAPTER and the within SCRIPTURE CONTEXT and separate it from all the scriptures provided in God’s Word from which it is quoting to try and make it say things that it is not saying.

This is a discussion that I hope will encourage you and challenge you to dig deep into God's WORD, praying and asking JESUS to be your guide and teacher which he promises to do to all those who ask him and seek him to answer the question...

IS COLOSSIANS 2 SAYING THAT WE ARE NO LONGER TO KEEP GOD'S SABBATH?

I believe you all are my brothers and sisters and that God's people are in all churches living up to all the light that God has revealed to them. The hour is coming and now is however that God is calling his people wherever they may be OUT FROM FOLLOWING THE TEACHINGS AND TRADITIONS OF MEN back to the pure words of GOD alone. God is a Spirit and those who worship him must worship him in Spirit and in truth *JOHN 10:17; JOHN 4:23-24

To be continued...

 

[3rdAngel]

1. THE CHAPTER CONTEXT OF COLOSSIANS 2:11-17

WHAT IS THE TOPIC OF CONVERSATION AND TOPIC OF COLOSSIANS 2:16?

This will help us to understand what COLOSSIANS 2:16 is talking about. Let’s start by looking at COLOSIANS 2:11-14 which will help us to understand COLOSSIANS 2:16.

Let's start...

COLOSSIANS 2:11-17 CHAPTER CONTEXT
[11], In whom also you are CIRCUMCISION with the CIRCUMCISION made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
[12], Buried with him in baptism, in which also you are risen with him through the faith of the working of God, who has raised him from the dead.
[13], And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he made alive together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[14], BLOTTING OUT the HANDWRITING of ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
[15], And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
[16], Let no man therefore judge you in FOOD AND DRINK, or in respect of a HOLY DAY [FESTIVAL], or of the NEW MOON, or of the SABBATH DAYS:
[17], Which are a SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME; but the body is of Christ.

CHAPTER CONTEXT OF COL 2:14 AND SUBJECT MATTER (COL 2:11-17)

V11. Shadows of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION pointing to CIRCUMCISION of the HEART MADE WITHOUT HANDS by the CIRCUMCISION of Christ.

THE SHADOW LAWS FORETOLD IN THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES….

DEUTERONOMY 10:16 [16] CIRCUMCISE THERFORE THE FORESKIN OF YOUR HEART, and be no more stiff-necked.

DEUTERONOMY 30:6 [6] And the LORD your God will CIRCUMCISE YOUR HEART AND THE HEART OF YOUR DECENDENCE, TO LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND WITHYOU’RE YOUR SOUL, THAT YOU MAY LIVE.

JEREMIAH 4:4 [4] CIRCUMCISE YOURSELF TO THE LORD, AND TAKE AWAY THE FORESKINS OF YOUR HEART, you men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

NOTE: NEW COVENANT FULFILLMENT of the SHADOWS of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION pointing the CIRCUMCISION of the HEART through faith in Christ…

ROMANS 2:25-29 [25] For circumcision verily profits, if you keep the law: but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26], Therefore if the uncircumcision keeps the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27], And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfils the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law? [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW, WHO IS ONE; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OF THE OUTWARD FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT AND NOT IN THE LETTER; WHOSE PRAISE IS NOT OF MEN BUT OF GOD.

1 CORITHIANS 7:19 [19] CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

This is the operation of GOD in the NEW COVENANT…

HEBREWS 8:10 [10], For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS [NOTE: THE SHADOW OF CIRCUMCSION]: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

CONCLUSION; The CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION is a Shadow law from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT pointing to a NEW HEART to LOVE and OBEY GOD in the NEW COVENANT. The SHADOW laws of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES of CIRCUMCISION from the Mosaic BOOK of the Covenant are the within CHAPTER CONTEXT BEFORE COL 2:14

Let's continue on through the chapter...

COLOSSIANS 2:14 SCRIPTURE SUBJECT MATTER AND CONTENT.

14, Blotting out the HANDWRITING of ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

GREEK WORD MEANINGS AND WORD USE

14, “BLOTTING OUT” < G1813 ἐξαλείφω exaleipho (ex-a-lei'-fō) v. means to rub out, i.e. obliterate, erase> the “HANDWRITING” < G5498 χειρόγραφον cheirographon (chei-ro'-gra-fon) n. means something hand-written (“chirograph”), a manuscript specially, a legal document > of “ORDINANCES” < G1378 δόγμα dogma (d̮og'-ma) n. means ordinance; CIVIL, CEREMONIAL or ECCLESIASTICAL LAWS> that was against us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The GREEK WORD meanings here in this scripture show that it follows the same CONTEXT of v11-13 in relation to the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES found in the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7.

V14 Blotting out or erasing the legal MANUSCRIPT or document of ORDINANCES referred to here are those of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT.

The GREEK word for ORDIANACE is DOGMA meaning THE CIVIL, CEREMONIAL and ECCLESIASTICAL ORDINANCES once again only found in the MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant *EXODUS 24:7

This scripture cannot be referring to the abolishing of the 10 commandments of God’s LAW as God’s 10 Commandments are not ORDINANCES and they are not written in a MANUSCRIPT they are written on two tables of stone (Exodus 31:18). Also the chapter CONTEXT is in reference to the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES of CIRCUMCISION once again from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT. These were all SHADOWS ALONG WITH THE ORDINANCES OF v17 pointing to Christ and the plan of SALVATION.

ORDINANCES that were against us is referring to the also referring to the PENALTY of SIN (breaking God’s Commandments which is death) and the ORDINANCES of curses written once again in the MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant.

ECCLESIASTES 18:20 20, The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.

ROMANS 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

DEUTERONOMY 31:26 [26] Take this Book of the Law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there FOR A WITNESS AGAINST THEE.

DEUTERONOMY 30:19 [19] For GOD has said, I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, BLESSINGS AND CURSES: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: [20] That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest OBEY his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

The death penalty is against us. So were all the ceremonial laws from the OLD COVENANT that were required to seek God's forgiveness *LEVITICUS 16. In the NEW COVENANT we are forgiven by FAITH through confession and repentance for our sins *1 JOHN 1:9; MATTHEW 3:2 . No more animal sacrifices required.

(See the list of ORDINACES for curses of breaking Gods’ Law in DEUTERONOMY 28:15-68)

……….

So, what is the answer to the question we asked earlier

1. WHAT IS THE TOPIC OF CONVERSATION AND TOPIC OF COLOSSIANS 2:16?

ANSWER; As shown through the scriptures above in COLOSSIANS 2:11-14 linked to the OLD and NEW TESATMANT scriptures, the “CONTEXT”, “SUBJECT MATTER” and TOPIC OF CONVERSATION” of COL 2:11-14 is talking about the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES written in the “SHADOW LAWS” from the MOSIAC BOOK of the Covenant which are SHADOW laws pointing to Jesus and God’s plan of SALVATION in the NEW COVENANT. The “CONTEXT” and “SUBJECT MATTER” of COLOSSIANS 2:16 is not referring to ABOLISHING any one of God’s 10 Commandments.

 

[3rdAngel]

2. THE WITHIN SCRIPTURE CONTEXT OF COLOSSIANS 2:14

In the last section we looked at the “WITHIN CHAPTER CONTEXT” of COLOSSIANS 2:16 now in this section we will look at the “WITHIN SCRIPTURE CONTECT” and GREEK WORD MEANINGS of COLOSSIANS 2:14 which supports what has already been presented in the “CHAPTER CONTEXT” demonstrated through the scriptures in the previous post.

Looking at the within scripture word meaning of and context of COLOSSIANS 2:14-16 continued..

COLOSSIANS 2:14 [14], Blotting out the HANDWRITING of ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

GREEK WORD MEANINGS AND WORD USE

14, “BLOTTING OUT” < G1813 ἐξαλείφωexaleipho (ex-a-lei'-fō) v. means to rub out, i.e. obliterate, erase>the “HANDWRITING” < G5498 χειρόγραφον cheirographon (chei-ro'-gra-fon) n. means something hand-written (“chirograph”), a manuscript specially, a legal document > of “ORDINANCES” < G1378 δόγμα dogma (d̮og'-ma) n. means ordinance; CIVIL, CEREMONIAL or ECCLIESIASTICAL laws >that was against us, WHICH WERE AGAINST , and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The GREEK WORD meanings here in this scripture show that it follows the same CONTEXT of v11-13 is in relation to the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES found in the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT (i.e. shadow law of circumcision).

So with the GREEK word meanings added for clarification the scripture context of COLOSSIANS 2:16-17 reads..

V14 Blotting out or erasing the legal MANUSCRIPT or document of ORDINANCES referred to here are those of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT. The GREEK word for ORDIANACE is DOGMA mean ing THE CIVIL, CEREMONIAL and ECCLESIASTICAL ORDINANCES once again only found in the MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant

What is being REPLACED in the NEW COVANANT is the CIVIL, CEREMONIAL and ECCLESIASTICAL laws and ORDINANCES not God's 10 commandments!

This scripture cannot be referring to the abolishing of the 10 commandments of God’s LAW as God’s 10 Commandments are not ORDINANCES and they are not written in a MANUSCRIPT they are written on two tables of stone (Exodus 31:18). The chapter CONTEXT is in reference to the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES of CIRCUMCISION once again from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT. These were all SHADOWS and ORDINANCES OF the Mosaic BOOK of the Covenant v17 pointing to Christ and the plan of SALVATION.

ORDINANCES that were against us is referring to the also referring to the PENALTY of SIN (breaking God’s Commandments and the ORDINANCES of curses written once again in the MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant.

DEUTERONOMY 31 [26] TAKE THIS BOOK OF THE LAW, and put it in the side of the ark of the COVENANT of the LORD your God, that it may be there FOR A WITNESS AGAINST THEE.

DEUTERONOMY 29 [21] And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, ACCORDING TO ALL THE CURSES OF THE COVENANT that are WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW.

(See the list of ORDINACES for curses of breaking Gods’ Law in DEUTERONOMY 28:15-68)

………..

WHAT IS THE WITHIN SCRIPTURE CONTEXT OF COLOSSIANS 2:14?

ANSWER; The “WITHIN SCRIPTURE CONTEXT” and Greek word meaning support the scriptures provided in the “CHAPTER CONTEXT”. COL 2:14 is talking about the CIVIL CEREMONIAL AND ECCLESIASTICAL ORDINANCES written in the MOSIAC BOOK of the Covenant which are SHADOW laws pointing to Jesus and God’s plan of SALVATION. This is supported also by the within CHAPTER CONTEXT and SUBJECT matter of v16 which are all CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES written in the MOCAIC BOOK of the COVENANT and not referring to ABOLISHING God’s 10 Commandments.

 

[3rdAngel]

3. LINKING THE NEW TO THE OLD – COLOSSIANS 2:14 “ORDINANCES” CONTINUED

COLOSSIANS 2:14 [14], Blotting out the HANDWRITING of ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross


HEBREWS 9:1;9-10; 12 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. [9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

old covenant...blood of goats.....The meat and drink offerings

HEBREWS 10 [4] FOR IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.[8] Above when he said, sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;[9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. HE TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND.

EPHESIANS 2:15-16 [15] HAVING ABOLISHED in his flesh the enmity, even the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;[16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

HEBREWS 13:9-12 [9] Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be ESTABLISHED WITH GRACE; NOT WITH MEATS, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. [10] We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. [11] For THE BODIES OF THOSE BEASTS, WHOSE BLOOD is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. [12] WHEREFORE JESUS ALSO, THAT HE MIGHT SANCTIFY THE PEOPLE WITH HIS OWN BLOOD, suffered without the gate.

The first covenant had ORDINANCES which stood ONLY in meat and drink offerings which were a figure. A shadow

EZEKIEL 46:14 [14] And thou shalt prepare a meat offering for it every morning, the sixth part of an ephah, and the third part of an hin of oil, to temper with the fine flour; a MEAT OFFERING continually by a perpetual ORDINANCES unto the LORD.

HEBREWS 10:1-4 [1] For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR continually make the comers thereunto perfect.[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. [3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.[4] For IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.

Hebrews 10 says it all. The shadow of the law was the offerings (the meat and drink offerings).

NUMBERS 19:2 [2] This is the ORDINANCE OF THE LAW which the Lord hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke:

JOHN 6:55 [55] For my flesh is MEAT indeed, and my blood is DRINK indeed.

NUMBERS 18:8 [8] And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, BY AN ORDINANCE for ever.[9] This shall be thine of the most holy things, reserved from the fire: EVERY OBLATION of theirs, EVERY MEAT OFFERING of theirs, and EVERY SIN OFFERING of theirs, and every trespass offering of theirs, which they shall render unto me, shall be most holy for thee and for thy sons.The new covenant is all about the blood of Christ and God's LAW written on the heart in those who BELIEVE the WORD of GOD. Not changing the law....but fulfilling the law

ROMANS 3:31 [31], Do we then make void the law through faith? GOD FORBID: YEA, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

ZECHARIAH 9:9-11 [9] Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, THY KING COMETH UNTO THEE: HE IS JUST, AND HAVING SALVATION; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.[10] And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.[11] As for thee also, BY THE BLOOD OF THY COVENANT I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water

Verse 9 definitely prophecies of the coming Jesus. Verse 11, Jesus is called the blood of thy covenant

HEBREWS 12:23-24 [23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,[24] And to Jesus THE MEDIATOR OF THE NEW COVENANT, AND TO THE BLOOD of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

New covenant... blood

LUKE 22 [19] And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. [20] Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, THIS CUP IS THE NEW TESTAMENT IN MY BLOOD, which is shed for you.

Where is all this leading? The NEW COVENANT of course...

JEREMIAH 31:31-34, [31] Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:[32], NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt ; MY COVENANT WHICH THEY BROKE, although I was a husband unto them, says the LORD:[33], But THIS SHALL BE MY COVENANT THAT I SHALL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISREAL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND I WILL WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE; [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

2 CORINTHIANS 3:2-3 [2], You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: [3], Since you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, WRITTEN NOT WITH INK, BUT WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD; NOT IN TABLES OF STONE, BUT IN THE FLESHLY TABLES OF THE HEART. (see all of 2 COR 3)

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CONCLUSION; Jesus did not come to change or destroy GOD'S LAW (10 Commandments). It is through GOD's LAW that we have a KNOLWEDGE of what SIN is. The sabbath is still to be kept. He came to fulfil what was written of Him in the BOOK OF THE LAW OF ORDINANCES and to END the Mosaic law for remission of SIN and the penalty of SIN in those who BELIEVE. COLOSSIANS 2 is not talking about God’s 10 COMMANDMENTS. NO MORE ORDINANCES WRITTEN IN THE MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT Ceremonial/Levitical/Sacrificial laws and animal sacrifices and FORGIVENESS OF SIN and DELIVERANCE from the PENALTY of SIN through FAITH in CHRIST and the BLOOD of the NEW COVENANT.