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Regeneration happens at the same time as saving faith is given,

Reformed

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An anecdote...

When I was a boy I was invited by a classmate to a bible club where I heard the gospel for the first time. A few years later I attended Vacation Bible School at the church across the street from my house. It was not until I was 17 years old that I came to faith in Christ. From a young age, God was arranging the circumstances that eventually lead to me believing the gospel message. However, I was not regenerated prior to my actual conversion.
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
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Who are the plural of the, know from God thou hast come?

"...The “we” occurs again in our Lord’s reply in John 3:11, and it may be that both find their true explanation in the fact that this interview took place in the house, and in the presence of John, who had led Nicodemus to come, as he himself had gone, with doubting heart, to the place where Jesus was dwelling (John 1:38)….."

John 3:2 Commentaries: this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
 

Iconoclast

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'I believe' Nicodemus was born from above already, and that he was a 'doer of the truth' whose works were wrought in God, and this is what ultimately drew him 'to the light' on that fateful night.

'I believe' Nicodemus was one of these:
21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.`

'I believe' Christ's subtle implication to Nicodemus was that he could never SEE that 'from God thou hast come' unless he were FIRST 'born from above':
2 this one came unto him by night, and said to him, `Rabbi, we have known that from God thou hast come -- a teacher, for no one these signs is able to do that thou dost, if God may not be with him.`
3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`

'I believe' Abraham was 'born from above' long before Genesis 15:6.


Hello Kyred,

I believe what I do, however, I see and agree with much you say on this issue at the same time.
I was challenged by a Presbyterian elder who I respect a lot.
I had recounted how God effectually drew me to salvation saying the time came where I asked God to have mercy on me. I said I believed it was that time, reading a bible alone in my house that I believed God quickened me to life.
He said had I considered it was not until I began to seek a local church that God saved me because he works through local churches.

I had not considered that as possible as I was severely convicted of my guilt over my sin. Looking back it is known by God.
It is not like we stand around with a stopwatch and declare when the Spirit works, but there is a moment in time when the Spirit brings someone from death to life.
 

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
Saving faith and regeneration happen simultaneously

.Abstract of Systematic Theology, James P. Boyce | The Reformed Reader

At the outset of a discussion of these two subjects we are met by the question, whether they are not one and the same thing. They are unquestionably so intimately associated that it is difficult to separate them and point out the distinctions between them. The Scriptures connect the two under the one idea of the new birth, and teach that not only is regeneration an absolute essential in each conversion, but that in every intelligent responsible soul conversion invariably accompanies regeneration. It is not strange, therefore, that they are often confounded. Yet, after all, the Scriptures also teach that regeneration is the work of God, changing the heart of man by his sovereign will, while conversion is the act of man turning towards God with the new inclination thus given to his heart.

I. It is best first to collect together the various terms and expressions in which this whole matter is taught.

1. Forms of the verb gennao, which means "to beget."

John 1:13; 3:3, 4 (two places), 5, 6, 7, 8; 1 Cor. 4:15; Philemon 10; 1 John 2:29; 3:9 (two places); 4:7; 5:1 (three places); 5:4, 18 (two places).

2. Compound forms of gennao.

1 Pet. 1:23. "Having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth."

Titus 3:5. "He saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

3. The word apekuesen is used in James 1:18, and means to bring forth or bear young, and there evidently means to bring to the condition of sonship.

4. Ktisis and ktizo, which mean creation and create, are found in 2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15; Eph. 2:10, 15; 4:24.

5. Sunezoopoiesen, he quickened together with (Christ). Eph. 2:5; Col. 2:13.

In addition to the above uses of single words are the following passages which speak of the word of God as an effective instrument, but not as a creative power. These, however, do not connect this instrument with either regeneration or conversion necessarily; but speaks of it (a) as a means of partaking of the divine nature, 2 Pet. 1:4; (b) as a means of purifying, John 15:3; (c) as a means of Christian defense, Eph. 6:17; and (d) as an instrument of powerful conviction and destruction of the wicked, Heb. 4:12.

II. From the Scriptural teaching we see that the whole work of Regeneration and Conversion is included under the one term regeneration.

It is true that but few of the passages refer to anything save the work of God; yet these few sufficiently teach the use of the word in regeneration to lead us not to reject, as a part of it, that result of God's act which, in connection with the word, leads to the full union of its subject with Christ through repentance and faith.

The passages in connection with Paul as God's instrument, 1 Cor. 4:15, and Philemon 10, would not be conclusive, but they are made so by others.

However much James 1:18 suggests a different aspect of the work, namely, the bringing forth that which has been begotten, still it so nearly connects that idea with the begetting as to create doubt if the whole work may not be virtually involved.

But 1 Pet. 1:23, by the use of the compound of gennao, shows that all the work of the Spirit, including both the new heart and the leading of it to conscious faith, is properly to be spoken of by the same term as a mere change of heart.

The whole work is thus spoken of, however, because God is operative from the beginning to the end, but this does not prove that he does not operate differently in one part from what he does in the other.

III. The Scripture teaching is that God operates immediately upon the heart to produce the required change, by which it is fitted to receive the truth, and mediately through the word in its reception of that truth.

1. He operates immediately upon the heart to prepare the way for the truth. This is evident

(1.) From the description given of man's spiritual condition.

(a) As spiritually dead. Eph. 2:1.

(b) As blind. Eph. 4:18.

(c) As slaves to sin. John 8:34; Rom. 6:17, 19.

(d) As needing deliverance from the powers of darkness. Col. 1:13.

(e) As incapable of knowing or discerning the things of the Spirit. 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 4:18.

(f) As incapable of changing himself. Jer. 13:23.

(g) As defiled in conscience. Tit. 1:15.

These passages show man in a condition from which he must be rescued even to understand and appreciate the truth of God.

(2.) The Scripture attributes the birth to the will of God exclusively, thus showing that in some aspect it is not to be regarded as due to the reception of the truth. John 1:13.

[For sections (3), (4), (5) and (6), see Hodge's Outlines, p. 451.]

(3.) The influence of the Spirit is distinguished from that of the word. John 6:45, 64, 65; 1 Cor. 2:12-15; 1 Thess. 1:5, 6.

(4.) A divine influence is declared to be necessary for the reception of the truth. Ps. 119:18; Acts 16:14; Eph. 1:17-20.

(5.) Such an internal operation on the heart is attributed to God. Matt. 11:25; Luke 10:21; Phil. 2:13; 2 Thess. 1:11; Heb. 13:21.

(6.) The nature of this influence is evidently different from that effected by the truth. Eph. 1:19; 3:7; 2 Tim. 2:25.

(7.) This influence is spoken of as a preparation of the heart for the truth; which, therefore, must be distinct from the truth or its reception. Luke 8:8, 15; Acts 16:14.

This preparation of the heart comes from God. 1 Chron. 29:18, 19; Ps. 119:18; Prov. 16:1; Acts 16:14; Rom. 9:23.


Wow, cool.

There is Meat here, to be had.

Regeneration happens at the same time as saving faith is given.

Then, to continue into a specific...

.... 'thinking' about the Reality of Regeneration and Saving Faith, we can narrow in on one or the other 'happening' first, from the standpoint of logic.

An overhead light comes on, at 'the same time' we flick the wallswitch.......

Ah, hah!

So, in that sense, of course, there was a walls witch flicked, prior to the light coming on.

Get you stopwatch ready.

Electricity goes? About 1/100 The Speed of Light.

Anyway, we get it.

Spiritually, God Flicks the Switch.

'Then', an individual lost soul that had been dead, IS REGENERATED TO NEW LIFE & LIGHT!!

... AND...... Has Faith!!!!

...

I'm not splitting hairs, I agree
Regeneration happens at the same time as saving faith is given.

The Divine and human sides have that logical distinction, in order, but it is God Still Giving the Faith, absolutely.

Same time.

 

Yeshua1

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I tend to agree. The whole ordo salutis concept is simple a matter of logic and an attempt to clarify correlation vs. causation and to avoid falling into the trap of reversing the causative order of events.

I believe that regeneration does precede faith in a logical sense, but practically speaking, when God regenerates a person, that's pretty much going to be followed immediately by faith. I don't think we are dealing with a situation where people are going around as regenerate persons who do not yet have faith.

Saying that regeneration precedes faith is really mostly the argument that faith doesn't cause regeneration. This can be argued ad nauseam precisely because regeneration and faith are so close to each other that the only way to discern the order is to consider the reasons why a person wouldn't be able to believe without first being regenerated.

I know anecdotal evidence isn't authoritative, but I know that my belief that regeneration precedes faith is partly linked to my own salvation experience.

For the vast majority of my life, I either thought I was a believer or bounced around with atheism, agnosticism, etc, sometimes coming back around to Christianity for a bit. But I could never quite understand how people who seemed to have genuine faith were just able to trust God. I didn't trust God at all to do anything. I basically expected nothing from him, and any time something negative in my life happened, I railed at God or turned to some other belief system.

When I finally reached the breaking point, I was thinking about how others who had also been at "rock bottom" in various ways had been able to emerge from despair due to their faith, but I had no idea how to believe.

I simply did not have the capacity to trust God, and I didn't believe in him. I believed he existed, but that was about it. In a moment of desperation, I felt entirely helpless and only could pray something to the effect of "I don't know how to believe--will you help me?" At that very moment, God did his work.

I instantaneously went from having absolutely no idea how to believe to knowing that I trusted Christ. It was baffling to me and definitely made me realize that I DEFINITELY did not know God before that moment. I know that I did absolutely nothing. I was never able to believe before that moment because God had not yet raised me out of spiritual death. When he did, he gave me the ability to believe in him.
God grants to His elect the regeneration and the faith required to trust in Jesus to save them, as part of the entire salvation package so to speak!
 

MB

Well-Known Member
Salvation is the gift and faith comes by hearing.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom_10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
MB
 

Van

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Site Supporter
This false doctrine, regeneration before faith (hidden as here by simultaneous action camouflage, is posted again and again. Regeneration is just another name for spiritual rebirth, or being born anew. Where does this occur? In Christ after God puts us in Christ. How are we chosen to be put in Christ. Through faith or based on God crediting our faith as righteousness.

No need to two pages of screed, copy and pasted from bogus arguments refuted again and again.
 

kyredneck

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Spiritually, God Flicks the Switch.

'Then', an individual lost soul that had been dead, IS REGENERATED TO NEW LIFE & LIGHT!!

... AND...... Has Faith!!!!

ABBRACADABRA!! SHAZAAM!! PRESTO CHANGO!! IMMORTALITY GRANTED!! Like a lightning bolt from a clear sky.
 

kyredneck

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Regeneration happens at the same time as saving faith is given.

Actually this is truth according to my view of 'regeneration'. Only the 'heavenly born' will ever be 'regenerated', i.e. converted from lost sheep to saved sheep, brought home to the kingdom of His dear Son, the rebuilt house of David, the Church of Christ, the restoration of all things, the New Covenant, the Israel of God.
 
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Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
This false doctrine, regeneration before faith (hidden as here by simultaneous action camouflage, is posted again and again. Regeneration is just another name for spiritual rebirth, or being born anew. Where does this occur? In Christ after God puts us in Christ. How are we chosen to be put in Christ. Through faith or based on God crediting our faith as righteousness.

No need to two pages of screed, copy and pasted from bogus arguments refuted again and again.

Sin?
 

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
IGHTNING BOLT FROM A CLEAR SKY


Actually this is truth according to my view of 'regeneration'. Only the 'heavenly born' will ever be 'regenerated', i.e. converted from lost sheep to saved sheep, brought home to the kingdom of His dear Son, the rebuilt house of David, the Church of Christ, the restoration of all things, the New Covenant, the Israel of God.


'saved' from Eternity Past?

The election of grace?
 

Van

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This false doctrine, regeneration before faith (hidden as here by simultaneous action camouflage, is posted again and again. Regeneration is just another name for spiritual rebirth, or being born anew as a new creature.. Where does this occur? In Christ after God puts us in Christ. How are we chosen to be put in Christ. Through faith or based on God crediting our faith as righteousness. We start out spiritually dead, separated from God, but are made alive (regenerated) together with Christ.

No need to two pages of screed, copy and pasted from bogus arguments refuted again and again.

Rom 6:11
Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

2Co 5:17

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.


 

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
This false doctrine, regeneration before faith (hidden as here by simultaneous action camouflage, is posted again and again. Regeneration is just another name for spiritual rebirth, or being born anew as a new creature.. Where does this occur? In Christ after God puts us in Christ. How are we chosen to be put in Christ. Through faith or based on God crediting our faith as righteousness. We start out spiritually dead, separated from God, but are made alive (regenerated) together with Christ.

No need to two pages of screed, copy and pasted from bogus arguments refuted again and again.

Rom 6:11
Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.


2Co 5:17

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.



The administration had been searching for a Testimony from an individual who professed to Elect themself to Eternal Salvation and I declined to disclose any references to them, as we are asked to not make accusations of people being 'lost', for which that would be a Testimony, provided it is in keeping with what they are saying.

So, they might want to search here.

...

"This false doctrine, regeneration before faith"

Faith is said to take place before Regeneration.

God is said to choose a soul and put them in Christ, based on God crediting our faith.

"Regeneration is just another name for spiritual rebirth, or being born anew as a new creature.. Where does this occur? In Christ after God puts us in Christ. How are we chosen to be put in Christ. Through faith or based on God crediting our faith as righteousness."

Before having faith or being chosen and put in Christ based on God crediting our faith as righteousness,

"we start out spiritually dead,

" We start out spiritually dead, separated from God,"
(then 2 thru 5, below)" but are made alive (regenerated) together with Christ."

1.) "we start out spiritually dead,"
2.) but then we have faith,
3.) Then, based on God crediting our faith as righteousness,
4.) God chooses us
5.) To then be put in Christ.
6.) when Regeneration is just another name for spiritual rebirth, or being born anew as a new creature..
... which is but are made alive (regenerated) together with Christ.

...

So, how would one be said to chose theirself to Eternal Salvation?

They have faith
that God credits as righteousness,
in order to permit God to choose them.
...

Note: warning...

Every word, thought, premise, lemrick, official narrative, and 'Divine Decree', are subject to change, however, as 'The Word of The Lord Comes' to Van.
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"Regeneration happens at the same time as saving faith is given

If you guys were sincere you simply would have given us your testimony having first hand experienced it and simply say Yes it did or no it didn't.
 
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