To the Catholics visiting the Baptist forum.

Which of course you know was not compiled in it's present form until the 4th century. And even into the middle ages and beyond, most people never read the Bible because most people were still illiterate.

Funny. It was still not until the 17th century that the Baptist faith tradition was formed.

 

Teaching that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ + performing the sacraments is adding the sacraments as a "supplement" to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save us. Either we are saved by grace through faith in Christ and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) or else we are saved through faith in Christ + performing the sacraments/works. Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. You can't have it both ways.

The Roman Catholic church has "added" these sacraments as a supplemental means to salvation "in addition" to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

It's not complete nonsense at all and you do add works to what Christ already did as a means to receiving eternal life.

Notice that the apostle Paul said we are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works.

Of course, yet God does not perform those good works for us. We perform them.

When you say component, you are basically saying that good works are the essence of faith. Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation. Faith is faith and works are works. Faith in Christ is the ROOT of salvation and good works are the FRUIT.

We do not yet have our glorified bodies. This is salvation in the 3rd tense - glorification. That is what believers hope for with a certain hope. Remember, there are 3 tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

Not at all. Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

I find it interesting that we NEVER find the specific words, "lose salvation" in the Bible. In regards to "epignosis," having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. Just ask Judas Iscariot. I hear eternal IN-securists use this argument a lot when citing 2 Peter 2:20-22 and since it's in your list of alleged proof texts that you use to support losing salvation, I would be happy to discuss it with you.

2 Peter 2:20 - For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and are new creations in Christ. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

*Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

*Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

 

Well, at least you're honest enough to admit you follow the Catholic Church and not Christ.

Why should I go to a church where you believe Christ is present, when I already have fellowship with Christ?

Congratulations. You've all but admitted your cult is an idol.

 

I didn't say in a good context, but you can't say Luther was an Anti-Semite based on this book ignoring all of his other books. In fact, in this same book, he says that he HOPES Jews come to Christ and it would be all the better. This is not a book against the race of the Jews, it is a book against the theology of the Jews.

And, I didn't need a lot of explaining, short, sweet, to the point and no twisting of history.

 

If you mean present in a statue or an icon...
The twisted teachings, many with no biblical support and therefore clearly not apostolic, make your church a stumbling block to the gospel. Much like the Judaisers Paul condemns in his letter to the Galatians, your church created legalistic traditions that have no connection to Christ Jesus. Even today, the Church at Rome and the Church at Moscow seek political power and control rather than repent of its apostasy.

 

"How are you saved? How do you know that you are going to Heaven?"

"I am really curious. I have many Catholic relatives I can't get a straight answer about this."

Who says we want to go to heaven? Be satisfied with OUR FATHER NOW, don't wait till heaven. Let Jesus bring heaven here through you.

Luke 18

9And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11“The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The tax collector didn't go home assured of himself of being in God's grace did he? Not knowing if your saved is not a problem there is something more valuable that is our personal relationship with God.

We take Faith in God to the next level. You might trust your parents yet you don't demand or seek a certificate of assurance or leverage over them.

Our priorities are laid out quite differently. SALVATION is NOT priority#1. Its not a commandment. and an obsession with salvation can become an idolatry of one's self.

Matthew 16

24Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25“For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26“For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

Our faith is not a instruction vs surviving God.

1 Timothy 1
5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

We don't wake up everyday with our hands up saying God don't shoot me!

Hell is a piece of cake our suffering is in offending God.

Imagine there is Box....and in it is the result, certificate, proof of salvation.

I would never open the box. I must TRUST GOD. There is bad taste, something wrong, if I need any sort of leverage or assurance. Something disingenuous.

In the Catholic faith God is very much part of the FAMILY and we are in a holy family.

I got bigger fish to fry then my salvation or immortality. Our hells are different. Its not about how much torture and pain you can put on me.....My first concern are the people I love and care about. We are called to love and care for everyone.

Best way to put ME in HELL......is spoil me with every good thing and let me know there is one soul being tormented.

We are taken to a shift of selfishness to SELF-LESS-NESS.

We are taught the Love of God and directly by God, hand taught (is that phrase? lol) .

God personally teaches me the love a father has for all his children, teaches me to see thru all the evil even in the worst sinner there is a treasure God treasures. And it is sincere and REAL.

Every Catholic is on a quest. The odds can be the whole world against you. With the demons AND the angels trying to bring you down. Yet we will always point to LOVE. LOVE is GOD. LOVE is the highest priority. Every faith and religion without LOVE is made trash. AGAPE. It is SINCERE its not a legalistic or contract with God.

The GOOD WORK is LOVE. God can keep the "REWARD" we do those things for FREE. There is no fear here, we answer to love alone. Tomorrow the entire universe can want you dead, As a Catholic I'm required to be the defender I defend you against the entire world if I have to, against all odds. As if you were Jesus Christ.

We don't want salvation or immortality. We want to know the love of God for 5 minutes. To know it. Just touch it once. We pray for our HOUR.

 

If you are going to try and have this discussion, you need to do your homework and not simply talk out of your hat, making it up as you go along.

First, Constantine did not declare Christianity to be the State religion, Theoosius did in 380 A.D.

Secondly, Constantine supported the Arians. If he had control over the Church, why aren't Catholics Arians?

Third, what Church were these men bishop of prior to Constantine becoming emperor in 306 A.D.?

St. Peter (32-67)
St. Linus (67-76)
St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
St. Clement I (88-97)
St. Evaristus (97-105)
St. Alexander I (105-115)
St. Sixtus I (115-125) -- also called Xystus I
St. Telesphorus (125-136)
St. Hyginus (136-140)
St. Pius I (140-155)
St. Anicetus (155-166)
St. Soter (166-175)
St. Eleutherius (175-189)
St. Victor I (189-199)
St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
St. Callistus I (217-22)
St. Urban I (222-30)
St. Pontain (230-35)
St. Anterus (235-36)
St. Fabian (236-50)
St. Cornelius (251-53)
St. Lucius I (253-54)
St. Stephen I (254-257)
St. Sixtus II (257-258)
St. Dionysius (260-268)
St. Felix I (269-274)
St. Eutychian (275-283)
St. Caius (283-296)
St. Marcellinus (296-304)


Lastly, if the State controlled the Church of Rome, what happened in Constantinople in 330 A.D.? (Hint: the "New Rome")

 

I didn't say it was biblical. I just challenged your false narrative that Luther was an anti-semite.

I agree. But Luther will not be giving you spiritual guidance, he's dead. However, there are many of Luther's writings at ARE profitable and you can't just automatically reject them all because some have truths to them. You need to be discerning.

That's a pretty big statement that I think you would have a hard time supporting. He did want people to come to Christ.

 

You might want to read this...

---> On the Jews & Their Lies

 

Noticed I referenced it in my original post on this topic. This is something that people who are against Luther take out of context in order to put Luther in a bad light overall and discount what he did and taught.

 

Obviously you haven't bothered to actually read the work.

If you actually decide to read that work and it doesn't convince you of his anti-semitism, try reading Vom Schem Hamphoras, which he wrote shortly after.

 

First, Peter was never a bishop. Nowhere in the Bible does he ever mention being the bishop of Rome. In fact, Paul had a bigger influence in Rome than Peter had.
The Church at Rome is famous for its revision of history. It had the power, it could control the narrative.
My question is why you would support such an obviously corrupt organization. It's the equivalent of being a Nazi sympathizer.

 

Sola Scriptura is quite a firm melief in MY church. We rely SOLELY ON THE BIBLE for ALL our intel about God, & Scripture is the final authority in all our matters of faith/worship. We follow NO man-made "traditions" or doctrines of faith/worship.

 

As we say, if it aint in Scripture, it aint so !