Regeneration happens at the same time as saving faith is given,

[Dave G]

Or that election means you will be saved.

" Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;" ( Colossians 3:12 ).

Here Paul is addressing the saved Colossians, and declaring them as "elect".
They are holy and beloved to God.

" But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. " ( 2 Peter 3:8-9 ).
Here Peter is calling those he is writing to, "beloved"...and in verse 9, he is telling them that God is long-suffering to them, not willing that any of them perish, but that they all come to repentance.

" What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us." ( Romans 8:31-34 ).

Here Paul is writing to the Roman believers, telling them what a special gift it is that they have been given.
He then tells them that if God was for them, who can be against them.
Then he goes to to ask them, "who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect?"

No one can, because it is Christ that died for them, and it is God that justifies.

Most of the Calvinist interpretation of election is false and not found in scripture.

I don't have any trouble finding it.

Election is "choosing".
Being "elect of God" means being chosen by God.

Salvation is "of" the Lord...by Him and through Him.
"Of" means "by", "from" or "through".

"Elect of God" means chosen by or from, God.
All one has to so is believe the words on the page, MB.

In fact there isn't even one Gentile ever called elect in the Bible.

" Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;" ( Colossians 3:12 ).
The Colossians were.

" Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." ( 1 Peter 1:1-2 ).
The "strangers" in 1 Peter 1 were.

" The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;" ( 2 John 1:1 ).

" The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen." ( 2 John 1:13 ).
John told his elect sister that she was....elect.

This is all fantasy doctrine. You should rename it for what it is. "fantasy"

With respect, sir, it is fact, not fantasy.

 

[Van]

I'm not pretending, Van...it is a gift.
" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:" ( Ephesians 2:8 ).

Anything that is given, is a gift.
For example:

" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" ( Philippians 1:29 ).
I believed on Christ because it was given to me to do so...
Just as it is given to me to suffer for His sake.

" But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." ( John 6:36-37 ).

" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 ).

" Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:25-26 ).

" as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." ( John 17:2 ).

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).
That above states that as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed.
Who, in the crowd that day, didn't believe?

Those that weren't ordained to eternal life.

Why bother to regurgitate these false assertions over and over? What a waste.

1) The gift of Ephesians 2:8 is salvation by grace. The gift is accessed through faith.

2) The idea that we are allowed to believe simply says we were not hardened to preclude belief.

3) Being given to Christ refers to being placed in Christ.

4) No one can believe in Christ if he or she is hardened. Whatever we do is allowed by God.

5) People who are not "of My sheep" are not open to God and His word. To be "of My Sheep" is to be open to the gospel.

6) Those given (placed in Christ) have eternal life.

7) As many as took Paul's direction to eternal life believed.

Again and again they repost false assertions and ignore the rebuttals.

 

[Van]

2Th 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Sanctification by the Spirit refers to the Spirit setting the person apart in Christ.

Thus the false claim "says no bible verse anywhere" has once again been exposed.

This verse does not say what you claim[/QUOTE]

Yet another denial of the obvious with a "taint so" post. What a waste.

 

[Van]

Have you ever noticed
that when God Talks,
SNIP
He Says things?

Yet another copy and paste post of nonsense.

 

[Van]

Think about being chosen through faith. This means our election for salvation is based on our faith, or more accurately based on God crediting our faith as righteousness. In the bogus scheme of Calvinism, we are given faith after we are chosen (unconditionally.) One view is supported by passage after passage, including James 2:5 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Did you see the passage that supports the bogus view? Neither did I.

 

[Alan Gross]

Yet another copy and paste post of nonsense.

It's called God's Word, thank you.

 

[Iconoclast]

CHS preached this:
And now we must say, that regeneration consists in this. God the Holy Spirit, in a supernatural manner—mark, by the word supernatural I mean just what it strictly means; supernatural, more than natural—works upon the hearts of men, and they by the operations of the divine Spirit become regenerate men; but without the Spirit they never can be regenerated. And unless God the Holy Spirit, who "worketh in us to will and to do," should operate upon the will and the conscience, regeneration is an absolute impossibility, and therefore so is salvation. "What!" says one, "do you mean to say that God absolutely interposes in the salvation of every man to make him regenerate?" I do indeed; in the salvation of every person there is an actual putting forth of the divine power, whereby the dead sinner is quickened, the unwilling sinner is made willing, the desperately hard sinner has his conscience made tender; and he who rejected God and despised Christ, is brought to cast himself down at the feet of Jesus. This is called fanatical doctrine, mayhap; that we can not help; it is scriptural doctrine, that is enough for us. "Except a man be born of the Spirit he can not see the kingdom of God; that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." If you like it not, quarrel with my Master, not with me; I do but simply declare his own revelation, that there must be in your heart something more than you can ever work there. There must be a divine operation; call it a miraculous operation, if you please; it is in some sense so. There must be a divine interposition, a divine working, a divine influence, or else, do what you may, without that you perish, and are undone; "for except a man be born again, be can not see the kingdom of God." The change is radical; it gives us new natures, makes us love what we hated and hate what we loved, sets us in a new road; makes our habits different, our thoughts different, makes us different in private, and different in public. So that being in Christ it is fulfilled: "If any man be in Christ he is a new creature; old things are passed away, behold all things are become new."

By Charles Haddon Spurgeon May 3, 1857Scripture: John 3:3Sermon No. 130From: New Park Street Pulpit Volume 3

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2:
Why, he cannot see the kingdom of God, because he would be out of place in heaven. A man that is not born again could not enjoy heaven. There is an actual impossibility in his nature, which prevents him from enjoying any of the bliss of Paradise. You think, mayhap, that heaven consists in those walls of jewels, in those pearly gates, and gates of gold; not so, that is the habitation of heaven. Heaven dwells there, but that is not heaven. Heaven is a state that is made here, that is made in the heart; made by God's Spirit within us, and unless God the Spirit has renewed us, and caused us to be born again, we cannot enjoy the things of heaven.

Why, it is a physical impossibility that ever a swine should deliver a lecture on astronomy; every man will clearly perceive that it must be impossible that a snail should build a city; and there is just as much impossibility that a sinner unmended, should enjoy heaven. Why, there would be nothing there for him to enjoy; if he could be put into the place where heaven is, he would be miserable; he would cry, "Let me away, let me away; let me away from this miserable place!"

I appeal to yourselves; a sermon is too long for you very often; the singing of God's praises is dull, dry work; you think that going up to God's house is very tedious. What will you do where they praise God day without night? If just a short discourse here is very wearying, what will you think of the eternal talkings of the redeemed through all ages of the wonders of redeeming love? If the company of the righteous is very irksome to you, what will be their company throughout eternity? I think many of you are free to confess that psalm singing is not a bit to your taste, that you care naught about any spiritual things; give you your bottle of wine, and set you down at your ease, that is heaven for you! Well, there is no such a heaven yet made; and therefore there is no heaven for you. The only heaven there is, is the heaven of spiritual men, the heaven of praise, the heaven of delight in God, the heaven of acceptance in the beloved, the heaven of communion with Christ. Now, you do not understand any thing about this; you could not enjoy it if you were to have it; you have not the capabilities for doing so. You, yourselves, from the very fact of your not being born again, are your own barrier to heaven, and if God were to open the gate wide, and say, "Come in," you could not enjoy heaven, if you were admitted; for unless a man be born again, there is an impossibility, a moral impossibility, of his seeing the kingdom of God.
Suppose there are some persons here who are entirely deaf, who have never heard sounds; well, I say they cannot hear singing. Do I when I say it, say a cruel thing? It is their own disability that prevents them. So when God says you cannot see the kingdom of heaven, he means that it is your own disability for the enjoyment of heaven, that will prevent you ever entering there.



Our life is like that wax melting in the flame; death puts its stamp on it, and then it cools, and the impress never can be changed. You to day are like the burning metal running forth from the cauldron in the mold; death cools you in your mold, and you are cast in that shape throughout eternity. The voice of doom crieth over the dead, "He that is holy let him be holy still; he that is unjust let him be unjust still; he that is filthy, let him be filthy still." The damned are lost forever; they can not be born again; they go on cursing, ever being cursed; ever fighting against God, and ever being trampled beneath his feet; they go on ever mocking, ever being laughed at for their mockery; ever rebelling and ever being tortured with the whips of conscience, because they are ever sinning. They cannot be regenerated because they are dead.

 

[Iconoclast]

In another sermon CHS was very clear.
Inasmuch as the gospel command, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved," is addressed by divine authority to every creature, it is the duty of every man so to do. What saith John: "This is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ," and our Lord himself assures us, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God."

I know there are some who will deny this, and deny it upon the ground that man has not the spiritual ability to believe in Jesus, to which I reply that it is altogether an error to imagine that the measure of the sinners moral ability is the measure of his duty. There are many things which men ought to do which they have now lost the moral and spiritual, though not the physical, power to do.

A man ought to be chaste, but if he has been so long immoral that he cannot restrain his passions, he is not thereby free from the obligation.

It is the duty of a debtor to pay his debts, but if he has been such a spendthrift that he has brought himself into hopeless poverty, he is not exonerated from his debts thereby. Every man ought to believe that which is true, but if his mind has become so depraved that he loves a lie and will not receive the truth, is he thereby excused?

If the law of God is to be lowered according to the moral condition of sinners, you would have a law graduated upon a sliding- scale to suit the degrees of human sinfulness; in fact, the worst man would be under the least law, and become consequently the least guilty. God's requirements would be a variable quantity, and, in truth, we should be under no rule at all.


The command of Christ stands good however bad men may be, and when he commands all men everywhere to repent, they are bound to repent, whether their sinfulness renders it impossible for them to be willing to so or not. In every case it is man's duty to do what God bids him.

At the same time, this faith, wherever it exists, is in every case, without exception, the gift of God and the work of the Holy Spirit. Never yet did a man believe in Jesus with the faith here intended, except the Holy Spirit led him to do so. He has wrought all our works in us, and our faith too.

Faith is too celestial a grace to spring up in human nature till it is renewed: faith is in every believer "the gift of God." You will say to me, "Are these two things consistent?" I reply, "Certainly, for they are both true." "How consistent?" say you. "How inconsistent?" say I, and you shall have as much difficulty to prove them inconsistent as I to prove them consistent. Experience makes them consistent, if theory does not. Men are convinced by the Holy Spirit of sin—"of sin," saith Christ, "because they believe not on me;" here is one of the truths; but the selfsame hearts are taught the same Spirit that faith is of the operation of God. (Col. ii. 2) Brethren be willing to see both sides of the shield of truth. Rise above the babyhood which cannot believe two doctrines until it sees the connecting link. Have you not two eyes, man? Must you needs put one of them out in order to see clearly? Is it impossible to you to use a spiritual stereoscope, and look at two views of truth until they melt into one, and that one becomes more real and actual because it is made up of two? Many men refuse to see more than one side of a doctrine, and persistently fight against anything which is not on its very surface consistent with their own idea. In the present case I do not find it difficult to believe faith to be at the same time the duty of man and the gift of God; and if others cannot accept the two truths, I am not responsible for their rejection of them; my duty is performed when I have honestly borne witness to them.


Faith and Regeneration
by C.H. Spurgeon
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Sermon
(No. 979)
Delivered on Lord's-day Morning, March 5th, 1871
At the Metropolitan Tabernacle, Newington

 

[MB]

You were having some fit of some kind.

Maybe, an MB Fit.

2 SAMUEL 23:6-7


But the Sons of Belial ( SATAN ),

will be, all of them, as thorns thrust away:


because they cannot be taken with hands;


but the man that will touch them,

must be fenced with iron,

and the staff of a spear:


and they will be utterly burned with fire

in the same place."

You are severely mistaken. You imagine your doctrine the same way you imagine my personalty. Your the only one having a fit and misusing scripture.
MB

 

[MB]

I'm not pretending, Van...it is a gift.
" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:" ( Ephesians 2:8 ).

Anything that is given, is a gift.
For example:

" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" ( Philippians 1:29 ).
I believed on Christ because it was given to me to do so...
Just as it is given to me to suffer for His sake.

" But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." ( John 6:36-37 ).

" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 ).

" Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:25-26 ).

" as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." ( John 17:2 ).

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).
That above states that as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed.
Who, in the crowd that day, didn't believe?

Those that weren't ordained to eternal life.

Proof positive the scriptures do not say only the elect can be saved.
MB

 

[MB]

" Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;" ( Colossians 3:12 ).

Here Paul is addressing the saved Colossians, and declaring them as "elect".
They are holy and beloved to God.

" But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. " ( 2 Peter 3:8-9 ).
Here Peter is calling those he is writing to, "beloved"...and in verse 9, he is telling them that God is long-suffering to them, not willing that any of them perish, but that they all come to repentance.

" What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us." ( Romans 8:31-34 ).

Here Paul is writing to the Roman believers, telling them what a special gift it is that they have been given.
He then tells them that if God was for them, who can be against them.
Then he goes to to ask them, "who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect?"

No one can, because it is Christ that died for them, and it is God that justifies.

I don't have any trouble finding it.

Election is "choosing".
Being "elect of God" means being chosen by God.

Salvation is "of" the Lord...by Him and through Him.
"Of" means "by", "from" or "through".

"Elect of God" means chosen by or from, God.
All one has to so is believe the words on the page, MB.

" Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;" ( Colossians 3:12 ).
The Colossians were.

" Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." ( 1 Peter 1:1-2 ).
The "strangers" in 1 Peter 1 were.

" The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;" ( 2 John 1:1 ).

" The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen." ( 2 John 1:13 ).
John told his elect sister that she was....elect.

With respect, sir, it is fact, not fantasy.

Wrong; Paul is telling them to put on as the elect. IOW's do as the elect do. Not that they are elect. Still trying to manipulate scripture huh
MB

 

[Van]

It's called God's Word, thank you.

Calvinism rewrites God's word, thankyou

 

[Van]

We are chosen to be placed in Christ based on faith in the truth. We are made alive (regenerated) when we are together with Christ, Ephesians 2:5. We are chosen through or on the basis of faith. Therefore faith before election, faith before salvation and faith before regeneration. We are saved by grace through faith, not saved and given faith.

 

[utilyan]

I don't see why the order of salvation needs to be explained to a group of people who self-proclaim to be elect and thus already have first hand experience of the order.

It makes it seem insincere like folks just getting trying to get their story straight.

 

[Dave G]

Why bother to regurgitate these false assertions over and over? What a waste.

A waste to you, perhaps, but to those who read these comments, and are re-directed to the words of scripture ( and not yours or my words ), perhaps not.

1) The gift of Ephesians 2:8 is salvation by grace. The gift is accessed through faith.

That would be accessing something by an effort...belief.
That is not grace, but debt ( Romans 4:4 ) if God is obligated to reward someone for performing the correct set of actions in order to "unlock" His grace and favor upon them.

2) The idea that we are allowed to believe simply says we were not hardened to preclude belief.

God has mercy and compassion upon whom He wills ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:15-16 ), and whom He wills He hardens.

3) Being given to Christ refers to being placed in Christ.

I agree.
Ephesians 1:4-5.

4) No one can believe in Christ if he or she is hardened. Whatever we do is allowed by God.

I agree.
I also maintain that whatever God does is either allowed by His children, or opposed by unbelievers...both in their hearts and in their actions.
For both sets of people.

5) People who are not "of My sheep" are not open to God and His word.

Again, I agree.
John 8:47.

 

[Dave G]

To be "of My Sheep" is to be open to the gospel.

Again, I agree...
Also, to be open to the Gospel is to be "of My sheep".

A person that does not have "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:15 ), will not believe God's words, from the heart ( Romans 10:9-10 ).
Them that are perishing think that the preaching of the cross is foolishness...while "us that are saved" do not.
not everyone is open to the Gospel, Van.
Not everyone has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God ( Matthew 13:10 ).

6) Those given (placed in Christ) have eternal life.

It seems that we agree on many things, Van.

7) As many as took Paul's direction to eternal life believed.

As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed.

That is the word order in Acts of the Apostles 13:48.
This agrees with the word order in Psalms 65:4, John 10:26, John 6:39, John 6:64-65, John 17:2, Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, Ephesians 2:10, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 and serveral others.

God bestows His grace upon someone, and they then respond to it.
The Lord acts, and the target of His work, through the Holy Spirit, then re-acts to it.

All according to His foreknowledge and Him choosing them to be placed in Christ, before the foundation of the world.

Again and again they repost false assertions and ignore the rebuttals.

Respectfully, it seems to me that again and again, you fail to see the significance of the word order, as presented in Scripture.

Why this is I do not know, but to me, you're missing the details, Van.
Each word counts, and the order that it is written in.

What is written, is written.
As it is, on the page.

A person either believes it, as it is written, or they do not.

 

[Dave G]

Calvinism rewrites God's word, thankyou

What John Calvin did, is of no concern of mine.

What I'm interested in is what the words say, and how it lays everything out.
I believe the words on the page, as they are laid out, because they are God's words, and not a man's.
My belief is in the words of God, because I know, in my heart, that He would never lie to me.

I trust His words to be true, as every believer in Jesus Christ has the privilege of doing.

 

[Alan Gross]

You are severely mistaken. You imagine your doctrine the same way you imagine my personalty. Your the only one having a fit and misusing scripture.
MB

Bite your Bible.

 

[Alan Gross]

Think about being chosen through faith. This means our election for salvation is based on our faith, or more accurately based on God crediting our faith as righteousness. In the bogus scheme of Calvinism, we are given faith after we are chosen (unconditionally.) One view is supported by passage after passage, including James 2:5 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Did you see the passage that supports the bogus view? Neither did I.

Your first word is the issue.