Input and opinion on Historical Redemptive Preaching

[Craig Betts]

If I am on the wrong thread or there are already discussions on this topic, please accept my apologies as I do not intend to duplicate it. However, this forum appears to be quite extensive, so I am not sure if I would be able to find similar discussions. If you know of one elsewhere on the forum, please redirect me there. Otherwise, please read on.

I am currently in a Southern Baptist Church with a very "strongly reformed" pastor. In the four years that he has been with us, he has consistently preached in a Historical Redemptive style - something that I am not accustomed to as I grew up with Historical Grammatical preaching. In light of this, I would appreciate some input as to why his style of preaching lacks any significant amount of daily application. Almost every single one of his sermons is basically about the gospel and about understanding who Jesus is, being sure that we are believing correctly, etc. It is almost as if he preaches like no one in the congregation is saved (although he is well aware that a majority most likely are). Every week, no matter what the text, it always is about the gospel. He will also make many theological observations of the text - facts about what is going on in the text, but every point always goes back to the gospel. His sermons usually have three or four main points. He also frequently talks about how we need to continue to "preach the gospel to ourselves". Still there is no life application or any talk about how these principals relate to our daily lives and how we can use them to grow in our walk with Christ.

Why does he preach like this? And why is it that he is so focused on the gospel and nothing else? I've been going to church and sitting under sermons for over 40 years, and I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out why it is like this. It seems like he thinks that preaching the gospel is going to somehow magically make us more sanctified and that we will just automatically live holier lives. He has often said that almost every problem a Christian has is caused by an improper understanding of the gospel. Therefore we just need to go back and revisit the gospel again so that we can get the right perspective.

I would greatly appreciate any input and ideas that you have. I'm somewhat perplexed because I am not used to this. Our pastor has been preaching this way for the four years that he has been with us, and it is only in the past year or so that I finally realized why something seemed "odd" to me.

Please don't get me wrong. I am all about preaching the gospel. It is the crux of who we are as Christians. But I just find this style of preaching to be difficult. I feel like we are going back to the drawing board and focusing on the fundamentals instead of moving forward into the deeper truths of scripture which can be applied to our daily lives.

 

[Reformed]

Craig, without examples we can listen to it is difficult to comment specifically on your pastor's preaching. Even then, it would take listening to numerous sermons since you wrote, "Almost every single one of his sermons is basically about the gospel and about understanding who Jesus is". While no one on this board can intelligently comment on your pastor, I can address redemptive-historical preaching.

Redemptive-Historical Preaching Pros

Redemptive-Historical Preaching (RHP) interprets all 66 books of the Bible from a redemptive framework. Certainly, the Bible is a redemptive story - from Genesis to Revelation. The Old Testament is considered to be a shadowy promise of the coming Messiah, with covenant Israel being a lesser type of Christ and His church. RHP looks at the Covenant of Redemption in terms of its Old Testament promise (c.f. Genesis 3:15) and its future fulfillment in Christ. In short, RHP sees Christ and the Gospel as interwoven throughout the fabric of scripture. Theologically speaking, that is a correct view. I will get to its drawback next.

Redemptive-Historical Preaching Cons

RHP's main negative is that it tempts the preacher to stray from an expository approach to preaching, i.e. away from the immediate context. The reason I write "tempts" is because it is not always the case. For instance, If I am preaching on 1 Corinthians 6 as to why Christians should not sue each other, it does not due damage to the text if I provide an application that stresses how lawsuits would be a poor reflection on our Christian profession and shame Christ. However, that point of application should never override the faithful and correct exposition of the text. Unfortunately, some pastors (especially new ones) may not be skilled in making that distinction.

There is a lot more I can write about this but I will let the thread unfold and offer additional comments as I feel fit.

Welcome to the Baptist Board!

 

[Iconoclast]

Craig Betts,

Welcome to BB. This is an excellent topic and post.

I am currently in a Southern Baptist Church with a very "strongly reformed" pastor. In the four years that he has been with us, he has consistently preached in a Historical Redemptive style - something that I am not accustomed to as I grew up with Historical Grammatical preaching.

Okay...

In light of this, I would appreciate some input as to why his style of preaching lacks any significant amount of daily application.

It should be both, not either-or, but rather both and....

Almost every single one of his sermons is basically about the gospel and about understanding who Jesus is, being sure that we are believing correctly, etc.

Preaching should be Christ-centered but also inclusive of what the Puritan writers spoke of as the "uses". That is to say, in light of what Jesus has accomplished what does it mean to us as we pray to be used to serve him in obeying mt.28.

It is almost as if he preaches like no one in the congregation is saved (although he is well aware that a majority most likely are). Every week, no matter what the text, it always is about the gospel.

It could be that only a slight adjustment needs to take place.
Many pastors will address those who might not be saved yet as they combine the purpose of God in saving elect sinners from the practice of their sins, with the good works that we are to be doing in the Kingdom of God once we are saved from the bondage to sin and death.

He will also make many theological observations of the text - facts about what is going on in the text, but every point always goes back to the gospel.

Sometimes a man, even a good man might be hindered by a wrong view of the Kingdom. If he does not believe the Kingdom has began here and now, but is all future, it could hinder his preaching of the Kingdom.

His sermons usually have three or four main points. He also frequently talks about how we need to continue to "preach the gospel to ourselves". Still there is no life application or any talk about how these principals relate to our daily lives and how we can use them to grow in our walk with Christ.

This sounds like a proper conversation over a hearty meal at your house, Print out the key points of your ideas here, expand a bit and ask him face to face how he understands things.

Why does he preach like this? And why is it that he is so focused on the gospel and nothing else?

That model is what many times is promoted as the norm. He strives to be accurate concerning the facts but might be coming up short on the practical outworking of those Kingdom realities.

I've been going to church and sitting under sermons for over 40 years, and I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out why it is like this.

It is possible that many in the assembly have not grown to a point where they share your concerns. If they are using those watered-down lifeway booklets they might not have an appetite for more Kingdom truths.

[QUOTE]It seems like he thinks that preaching the gospel is going to somehow magically make us more sanctified and that we will just automatically live holier lives. He has often said that almost every problem a Christian has is caused by an improper understanding of the gospel. Therefore we just need to go back and revisit the gospel again so that we can get the right perspective.
[/QUOTE]

Many a Christian will say that 1 cor 15:1-4 is the gospel. They are speaking only of those historical facts. They ignore where it says two times," according to the scriptures".
This is speaking of the Kingdom's growth and our part in it.

I would greatly appreciate any input and ideas that you have. I'm somewhat perplexed because I am not used to this. Our pastor has been preaching this way for the four years that he has been with us, and it is only in the past year or so that I finally realized why something seemed "odd" to me.

Please don't get me wrong. I am all about preaching the gospel. It is the crux of who we are as Christians. But I just find this style of preaching to be difficult. I feel like we are going back to the drawing board and focusing on the fundamentals instead of moving forward into the deeper truths of scripture which can be applied to our daily lives.

Yes , have the pastor over. Feed him a nice meal, then "grill him".lol

 

[Craig Betts]

Craig Betts,

Welcome to BB. This is an excellent topic and post.



Okay...


It should be both, not either-or, but rather both and....



Preaching should be Christ-centered but also inclusive of what the Puritan writers spoke of as the "uses". That is to say, in light of what Jesus has accomplished what does it mean to us as we pray to be used to serve him in obeying mt.28.




It could be that only a slight adjustment needs to take place.
Many pastors will address those who might not be saved yet as they combine the purpose of God in saving elect sinners from the practice of their sins, with the good works that we are to be doing in the Kingdom of God once we are saved from the bondage to sin and death.



Sometimes a man, even a good man might be hindered by a wrong view of the Kingdom. If he does not believe the Kingdom has began here and now, but is all future, it could hinder his preaching of the Kingdom.



This sounds like a proper conversation over a hearty meal at your house, Print out the key points of your ideas here, expand a bit and ask him face to face how he understands things.



That model is what many times is promoted as the norm. He strives to be accurate concerning the facts but might be coming up short on the practical outworking of those Kingdom realities.



It is possible that many in the assembly have not grown to a point where they share your concerns. If they are using those watered-down lifeway booklets they might not have an appetite for more Kingdom truths.

[QUOTE]It seems like he thinks that preaching the gospel is going to somehow magically make us more sanctified and that we will just automatically live holier lives. He has often said that almost every problem a Christian has is caused by an improper understanding of the gospel. Therefore we just need to go back and revisit the gospel again so that we can get the right perspective.

Many a Christian will say that 1 cor 15:1-4 is the gospel. They are speaking only of those historical facts. They ignore where it says two times," according to the scriptures".
This is speaking of the Kingdom's growth and our part in it.



Yes , have the pastor over. Feed him a nice meal, then "grill him".lol[/QUOTE]

 

[Craig Betts]

Thank you again for this helpful input. So you suggest a "grilling"?? Haha....that could be interesting. At any rate, I'm glad you mentioned Lifeway materials. We are currently using some of their curriculum (Bible Studies for Life) and I just got done chatting with one of the other SS teachers who essentially said the exact same thing. The material is really basic and simplistic. We are using the Gospel Project as well, and I have found similar issues in that curriculum, too. It's still not digging deep into the practical everyday aspect of fleshing out our walk with Christ. We are only scratching the surface and continue to revisit the fundamentals which are very good if someone is a new believer and has a lot of basics to learn. It's like I said before, we are focusing completely on the gospel and not much else. I am struggling to understand this concept because although the gospel is extremely important, it is only the beginning of the journey. We definitely keep it in view, but it is the starting point.

 

[Craig Betts]

Craig Betts,

Welcome to BB. This is an excellent topic and post.



Okay...


It should be both, not either-or, but rather both and....



Preaching should be Christ-centered but also inclusive of what the Puritan writers spoke of as the "uses". That is to say, in light of what Jesus has accomplished what does it mean to us as we pray to be used to serve him in obeying mt.28.




It could be that only a slight adjustment needs to take place.
Many pastors will address those who might not be saved yet as they combine the purpose of God in saving elect sinners from the practice of their sins, with the good works that we are to be doing in the Kingdom of God once we are saved from the bondage to sin and death.



Sometimes a man, even a good man might be hindered by a wrong view of the Kingdom. If he does not believe the Kingdom has began here and now, but is all future, it could hinder his preaching of the Kingdom.



This sounds like a proper conversation over a hearty meal at your house, Print out the key points of your ideas here, expand a bit and ask him face to face how he understands things.



That model is what many times is promoted as the norm. He strives to be accurate concerning the facts but might be coming up short on the practical outworking of those Kingdom realities.



It is possible that many in the assembly have not grown to a point where they share your concerns. If they are using those watered-down lifeway booklets they might not have an appetite for more Kingdom truths.

[QUOTE]It seems like he thinks that preaching the gospel is going to somehow magically make us more sanctified and that we will just automatically live holier lives. He has often said that almost every problem a Christian has is caused by an improper understanding of the gospel. Therefore we just need to go back and revisit the gospel again so that we can get the right perspective.

Many a Christian will say that 1 cor 15:1-4 is the gospel. They are speaking only of those historical facts. They ignore where it says two times," according to the scriptures".
This is speaking of the Kingdom's growth and our part in it.



Yes , have the pastor over. Feed him a nice meal, then "grill him".lol[/QUOTE]

...and thank you for the kind words in reference to my post. I'm never sure how a post is going to come out in the end....

 

[Iconoclast]

Many a Christian will say that 1 cor 15:1-4 is the gospel. They are speaking only of those historical facts. They ignore where it says two times," according to the scriptures".
This is speaking of the Kingdom's growth and our part in it.



Yes , have the pastor over. Feed him a nice meal, then "grill him".lol

...and thank you for the kind words in reference to my post. I'm never sure how a post is going to come out in the end....[/QUOTE]
it is a good topic. Sometimes it seems that many people are content to drift along as if it is only religion and not God Himself who tells us what to do and how to live and serve him.

 

[Craig Betts]

In follow up to this thread, I have contacted my pastor and will be getting together with him in the next week or so to "wrestle" with some of the theological issues to which he holds, along with this very issue of there not being much application. I think that much of this is related to his approach to the scriptures and his fear that he will somehow not render the scriptures accurately if he attempts to put his own ideas in there - ideas of application. He feels very strongly about misrepresenting the Word. I understand this, but at the same time I feel like that's why we have the Holy Spirit to guide us as we read and study His word. He will lead us into all truth. There surely has to be an application point for most of scripture whether it be a narrative or a straight up theological passage.

 

[Dave G]

He feels very strongly about misrepresenting the Word.

To me, a very wise approach.

I understand this, but at the same time I feel like that's why we have the Holy Spirit to guide us as we read and study His word.

I agree.
1 John 2:20-27.

He will lead us into all truth.

As he did for the apostles ( John 16:13 ), I believe he does this for all of His sheep.

There surely has to be an application point for most of scripture whether it be a narrative or a straight up theological passage.

I'm not sure what "application" is, but I simply read and believe it, and trust the Lord to do the applying.
I try my best to take this to heart:

"Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 if so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious." ( 1 Peter 2:1-3 ).

I see it saying that we as believers read His word and God does the growing...which to me, is the same as "applying".



May God bless you sir.

 

[Craig Betts]

To me, a very wise approach.

I agree.
1 John 2:20-27.

As he did for the apostles ( John 16:13 ), I believe he does this for all of His sheep.

I'm not sure what "application" is, but I simply read and believe it, and trust the Lord to do the applying.
I try my best to take this to heart:

"Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 if so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious." ( 1 Peter 2:1-3 ).

I see it saying that we as believers read His word and God does the growing...which to me, is the same as "applying".



May God bless you sir.

Thank you for the input. When I talk about application, I simply mean finding ways to make it relate to my every day life. How can I use it when I am at work or out and about interacting with other people? What do those principals specifically look like in our daily lives as we endeavor to walk in holiness? It is one thing to know spiritual/theological facts and ideas. It is another thing to apply them. I can know all about the fruits of the Holy Spirit. But how is that going to be fleshed out in my daily walk? I can read narratives in the gospel about how the pharisees did not understand who Jesus was, how their hearts were whitewashed tombs, and how Jesus rebuked them. But how does that story relate to ways that I can grow deeper in my walk with Christ? This is the issue that I am struggling with right now. Our dear pastor has an excellent understanding of scripture and what a specific passage is communicating. But he rarely ever brings it into the realm of what that is going to look like as we try to apply it to daily living. I hope this makes sense.

 

[Reformed]

Thank you for the input. When I talk about application, I simply mean finding ways to make it relate to my every day life.

Craig, this question is not just directed to you, it is directed to all. Preachers are easy to criticize and pass judgment on. However, how much responsibility does the individual Christian have in applying the Word in their own life? I ask this question because over the years I have heard every criticism possible about preachers. Common criticisms are:

• Preaches too long
• Preaches too short
• Too topical
• Too expository
• No meat
• No application
• Mousy voice
• Loud voice
• Poor communicator
• Too cerebral
• Ignores the Old Testament
• Too much humor
• No humor
• Too many analogies
• No analogies

I can go on.

To be sure, there are valid criticisms to be made of some preachers. A preacher who does not know the Word and does not preach the Word has no business being in the pulpit. While I personally prefer expository preaching, there is no requirement that a pastor must adopt that style of peaching and never deviate from it. The only requirement is that a preacher is faithful to the text. When it comes to points of application, some of that argument is about homiletics. For instance, if I preach on Philippians 2:1-11, is it enough that I 1) Accurately interpret the text 2) Accurately teach the text 3) Charge those listening to live obediently to the text? If I am missing the homiletical Baptist standard of three points of application, have I failed as a preacher? Does each member of the congregation have any responsibility to receive the text (by hearing) and applying it to their own lives?

I am not suggesting that a preacher should not be good at what he does. A preacher should preach the Word in such a way that it is understandable and practical. Lazy and incompetent preachers are a bane to the church but so are lazy and incompetent Christians.

 

[Dave G]

It is one thing to know spiritual/theological facts and ideas. It is another thing to apply them.

Craig,
My apologies for wandering out of the scope of the OP, but I'm responding to comments made in the thread that I believe would be helpful to answer.

My point is, do we apply them, or does God work in us, both to will and to do of His good pleasure ( Philippians 2:13 )?
Does He begin a work in us ( Philippians 1:6 ), and continue that work until the day we die ( or His Son comes again ), or do we do all the work?
Does His Spirit do the teaching, thereby resulting in an "outworking", or is it all up to us to "make it work"?

I believe that more thought about "application" is in order, by those who profess Christ.

I see the study and understanding of God's word as a privilege given to His children.
We study it, as He commands ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ), and we grow, spiritually, as a natural consequence of that quality time spent in the Scriptures.
The application is, that His word comes to permeate our conscious mind, and we then begin to heed it in our daily lives.

I see Him doing that work...
Even though it appears to us that we are the ones who are cooperating with Him.
Because we are.

Where He leads, we, as Christ's sheep, follow ( John 8:47, John 10:27, Romans 8:14 ).

I can know all about the fruits of the Holy Spirit. But how is that going to be fleshed out in my daily walk?

By the Spirit that works in each and every one of us.

Those fruits, as described in God's word, can be found in several places in His word.
Those that immediately come to mind are found in Galatians 5:22-23.

Fruit is something that I am firmly convinced, by both God's word and my own experience, takes time to grow.
But I see it as a natural consequence of God doing the "pruning" ( John 15:2-6 )...
As a natural consequence of having the gift of true faith.

A faith that will grow out of trials and tribulations, chastening ( Hebrews 12:6 ) and God's care of us as His children.

Our dear pastor has an excellent understanding of scripture and what a specific passage is communicating. But he rarely ever brings it into the realm of what that is going to look like as we try to apply it to daily living. I hope this makes sense.

It does, at least to me.

My recommendation is to heed his guidance where it lines up with Scripture ( never discount that he made need occasional correction from God's word as well ), and keep reading.
Spiritual growth takes time, and doesn't come overnight.
The understanding of God's word, thoroughly, takes time and also does not happen overnight.

Try and be patient, Craig...
"Work out" your own salvation with fear and trembling.
The Lord God has much to show His children.

Do as He commands, and rest in Him...
Trust Him to show you everything in His good timing.


May you look to Him to comfort you in the midst of your trials,
and may you always remember His love and kindness towards you.

 

[Craig Betts]

Good words of advice here, folks. I very much appreciate your heart in your responses. I agree with what has been said thus far. Maybe I should rephrase it to say that I would like us to be told HOW to apply those things. I do want specific examples, but yes, the Holy Spirit will teach and guide and direct us towards holy living. I suppose that maybe I just feel that our folks need some more basics of how to apply those things. So many people just "come to church to get their Sunday service". It's a check on their list of Sunday obligations. They sit and just expect everything to automatically be fed into their mouths without any efforts in personal study on their own parts.