2 Peter

[Dave G]

Once again I see the outright denial that God credits the believers faith as righteousness. They have no answer for Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-24.

I agree, Van.

God does credit faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross for the believer as righteousness.
Romans 4 is very plain about this.

Now, please explain where "saving faith" comes from.

The concept of total spiritual inability says all the lost hate God all the time and would not put their flawed faith in Christ. But then you turn around and say even though they hate God all the time, they put their flawed faith in Christ. Cognitive dissonance anyone?

Not in the least.
Let's try it from the top:

God opens the hearts of His elect, who hate Him, just as all men do ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 ) before He performs that act, so that they will "hear" and understand the words of the Gospel ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).
They believe it and are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption ( Ephesians 1:13 ).
He gives them the gift of true faith, authored and finished by their Saviour, Jesus Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ).
That faith, the faith "of" ( originating from ) Christ ( Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:22 ), is not ours, but comes from God ( Ephesians 2:8 ).

That is why true faith endures, and false "faith" does not...
Because true faith is the faith that Jesus Christ had, and we now have as His sheep.

Believers were given the privilege to both believe and to suffer for His sake ( Philippians 1:29 ), in the behalf of Christ.
True belief and true faith are the evidences of our salvation, not the means by which we gain it.

Bringing it all back around...

Faith is credited as righteousness.
That faith is a gift from God.

Therefore, we have nothing to boast in, because it is all of God.
No "rug" to stand on except His mercy and grace ( Titus 3:5-6 ), which is precisely how He wants it.

 

[Dave G]

The issue is God wills to give grace to those whose faith He credits as righteousness.

From what you're stating above, I'm understanding it like this:

God wants to save all men...
But He can't.
He's powerless to do so unless we cooperate with Him in His plan of salvation.

He has made an agreement with mankind by which He can only give grace to those who place their faith in His Son.
Am I getting that right?

If so, I don't see Peter ever writing anything like this in his epistles.

 

[agedman]

I did not write or inspire Romans chapter 4.
Scripture, properly understood all fits together. For example, there are none of the lost who are righteous, but those born anew are "made righteous." There, there is none righteous means there is none who are righteous at all times.
Scripture says God does credit human faith, therefore your assertion is unbiblical and wrong.

The issue is God wills to give grace to those whose faith He credits as righteousness.

You are adding words to the Scriptures when you stated, "there is none righteous means there is none who are righteous at all times."

NOT a single time does the Scriptures even hint at such a meaning. "There is none righteous" means at no time in the life of a human is there anything or anytime they are of their self righteous.

ALL righteousness comes from God. Romans 9:

30What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;​

Gentiles DID NOT pursue righteousness, so their human faith has NOTHING to do with being "credited" by God. For they do not pursue (have no faith to pursue, care not in the pursuit).

Paul goes on to express that righteousness is gifted from God in Romans 10:

3For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.​

JEWS who were given the very oracles of God did attempt to "pursue" but using human faith "seeking to establish their own righteousness." They failed, for true righteousness is gifted by God.

You place your view upon the failed human expression of faith. That in some manner human hope can conjure up enough effort to get God's attention in which He then will examine to see if it meets some unknown level in which He then will credit that person with righteousness.

Such thinking is in violation of where faith comes. For "faith COMES by hearing..." it is not something conjured up as a human attribute. Faith comes by hearing "the word of God." It does not come by any other means. It is not naturally available, and not naturally expressed.

Yet, you persist in presenting some human ability as the catalyst to get God to respond.

The Scriptures present the human ability is not the catalyst to get God's response in either salvation nor in purpose, but the human ability is ALWAYS that which follows God's selection and God's actions. Without fail, there is not a single redeemed of the ancients that were not reluctant and that were not busy doing other life tasks.

Yet, in spite of life examples of the ancients, in spite of numerous threads and posts, you obstinately persist in presenting some human capability of getting God's righteousness to be credited.

God doesn't "will His grace to be given to those He credits His righteousness!"

His unmerited favor is His FIRST expression of those He has ALREADY chosen for His purpose.

God's grace is commonly distributed to all, those evil and those good. Such is not impartial and such is not earned.

Yet, there is NOT a single one righteous, not one.

Therefore, God, without regard other than for His purpose, selects those for the fulfillment of His cause, and proclaims them as His. Therefore, they are righteous. Not by the expression of human values and faith, but according to His mercy, and according to His purpose. His faith implanted in them, His righteousness covering (crediting) the human unrighteousness.

 

[agedman]

One of the problems with the word "credit" as used in Romans 4 is that in the modern terms it is as if something is charged against an account and then there is a determination of that "owed."

"The old account was settled long ago..." presents a picture of account books of heaven that records debts unpaid, that cannot be paid, and no ability by humankind to pay the debt is available. There is certain Scriptures that can be used to support this thinking as an accountant might consider.

Yet, there is more to this word, "credit," and it is more often neglected.

The Scriptures present not only the accounting, but the careful consideration and thoughtfulness, the reasoning and drawing conclusions as a part of this word, "credit."

When God credits, it is not upon whim, or as some response to outside influence. It is that which He has carefully considered, thoughtfully reasoned and drew certain conclusions concerning the account.

Not long ago, I sat with a banker. A friend who is skilled in examining accounting and looking to find areas in which errors of entry were made. He did not look at the bottom line, but examined the entries, the processes, even remarking as to how at times the entries were frenzied and others far more relaxed. He would reflect upon how the events that shaped the entries effected the appearance of the entry.

The final judgment shows this same presentation.

The books are opened, and every man judged according to the deeds done in life. The relaxed times and the frenzy are all accounted. Every person is judged by the accounts in these volumes of entries in the books.

But there is another book. A single book. A book in which names were recorded. There is no place given where names were added or taken out. Even though Scriptures record some asking for such, no record exists in which such action took place. The Scriptures state that He is faithful, even when humankind are not.

A remarkable event occurs.

It matters not when, where, or how one lived. It mattered not what they considered important and what that person believed was correct.

All accounts were examined, and only those in the single book stood without error.

All are already condemned, yet those in the single book were credited as righteous, without error.

Therefore, one may reflect on how carefully planned, how directly purposed and how marvelously glorious God presents the accounts, the debits and credits, and that which He has done far above, abundantly above, in order to present one as having all account balances paid in full.

 

[Van]

[Edited Post] f it is "twaddle" as you say,
How, exactly, does one obtain a gift, Van, other than to receive it?
Are you telling me that believers have to do something to receive a gift?

The Bible does not teach works salvation, Van.

Not at all.
But, if you think it is deflection, tell me...how does one get "saving faith"?
However, I agree with you not to give up on possible tares.

More deflection with utter nonsense. More mindless questions. More false claims.
I did not write or inspire Romans chapter 4.
Scripture, properly understood all fits together. For example, there are none of the lost who are righteous, but those born anew are "made righteous." There, there is none righteous means there is none who are righteous at all times.
Scripture says God does credit human faith, therefore your assertion is unbiblical and wrong.

The issue is God wills to give grace to those whose faith He credits as righteousness.

 

[Van]

[Edited post] ]You are adding words to the Scriptures when you stated, "there is none righteous means there is none who are righteous at all times."

NOT a single time does the Scriptures even hint at such a meaning. "There is none righteous" means at no time in the life of a human is there anything or anytime they are of their self righteous.

Yet, you persist in presenting some human ability as the catalyst to get God to respond.

The Scriptures present the human ability is not the catalyst to get God's response in either salvation nor in purpose, but the human ability is ALWAYS that which follows God's selection and God's actions.

God doesn't "will His grace to be given to those He credits His righteousness!"

.

Yet another deflection, more nonsense, more false claims.
Calvinism does not deny people are made righteous, but this poster does.

Scripture does not say no one is not righteous after they are made righteous. But this is the nonsense posted.

What is the work God requires of people? To believe in God and His Christ. This poster denies Romans 6:29. Romans 4:4-5 Romans 4:23-24.
The issue is God wills to give grace to those whose faith He credits as righteousness.

 

[Van]

From what you're stating above, I'm understanding it like this:

God wants to save all men...
But He can't.
He's powerless to do so unless we cooperate with Him in His plan of salvation.

He has made an agreement with mankind by which He can only give grace to those who place their faith in His Son.
Am I getting that right?

If so, I don't see Peter ever writing anything like this in his epistles.

Yet another deflection, another post of utter nonsense, another of false charges.

Does God desire to say all people according to His redemption plan? Yes. Does this mean God cannot accomplish that plan if all people are not saved? Nope, His redemption plan saves those whose faith God credits as righteousness. If God chooses not to credit the faith or non-faith of people, that is according to His plan.

The issue is God wills to give grace to those whose faith He credits as righteousness.

 

[Van]

2 Peter 1:1 NASB
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours,
by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

When considering the study of a verse, one activity after reading the passage to establish the immediate context, is to consider the meaning of the words used. Use both English Dictionaries, and Bible Lexicons.

First, we see that Simon is spelled in some versions Simeon, and is the given name of Peter. Peter is the name given by Jesus to His apostle, Simeon.

Bond-servant best translates the word also rendered "servant" or "slave." The important idea conveyed by "bond-servant" is the person who agrees to put themselves under the authority of another. Thus someone who accepts the gospel wills to be put under the authority of Christ.

Apostle refers to a person chosen to represent another, thus Peter is an apostle of Christ.

Jesus is the accepted name of our Lord, although
"Yeshua was a common alternative form of the name יְהוֹשֻׁעַ ("Yehoshua" – Joshua) in later books of the Hebrew Bible and among Jews of the Second Temple period. The name corresponds to the Greek spelling Iesous, from which, through the Latin Iesus, comes the English spelling Jesus."

Christ (Messiah) refers to the Anointed One chosen by God to be the Savior of all who believe.

"Received a faith" Here we have one of those ambiguous phrases that are interpreted to mean whatever the presumptive doctrine of the interpreter requires. The word rendered "received" is frequently rendered "obtained" with the idea whatever was obtained was obtained by chance (such as casting lots) or through an action of another. Faith as used here refers to our salvation, with a saved Gentile being equal to a saved Jew. Thus "received a faith" should be understood to mean "obtained a salvation."

And we obtained this "faith" through the righteousness of our God and our Savior Jesus Christ. This verse presents the truth of the deity of Christ boldly and unequivocally.

 

[Dave G]

Yet another deflection, another post of utter nonsense, another of false charges.

How?

Does God desire to say all people according to His redemption plan? Yes.

No.

Does this mean God cannot accomplish that plan if all people are not saved?

Yes.
If He does indeed desire to save each and every man woman and child who ever lived, then He has failed.

Nope, His redemption plan saves those whose faith God credits as righteousness.

To me, you're beating around the bush.
Does a person's faith act as the deciding factor on whether or not one is saved?

If God chooses not to credit the faith or non-faith of people, that is according to His plan.

God does not credit a person's faith as righteousness, if that person does not have faith in Christ's finished work on the cross.

His plan is to save those that have true faith.
Where does that faith some from?

 

[Dave G]

When considering the study of a verse, one activity after reading the passage to establish the immediate context, is to consider the meaning of the words used. Use both English Dictionaries, and Bible Lexicons.

God's people don't need those.

They have all that they need in the Person of the Holy Ghost and a copy of His word.

 

[agedman]

2 Peter 1:1 NASB
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours,
by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

When considering the study of a verse, one activity after reading the passage to establish the immediate context, is to consider the meaning of the words used. Use both English Dictionaries, and Bible Lexicons.

First, we see that Simon is spelled in some versions Simeon, and is the given name of Peter. Peter is the name given by Jesus to His apostle, Simeon.

Bond-servant best translates the word also rendered "servant" or "slave." The important idea conveyed by "bond-servant" is the person who agrees to put themselves under the authority of another. Thus someone who accepts the gospel wills to be put under the authority of Christ.

Apostle refers to a person chosen to represent another, thus Peter is an apostle of Christ.

Jesus is the accepted name of our Lord, although
"Yeshua was a common alternative form of the name יְהוֹשֻׁעַ ("Yehoshua" – Joshua) in later books of the Hebrew Bible and among Jews of the Second Temple period. The name corresponds to the Greek spelling Iesous, from which, through the Latin Iesus, comes the English spelling Jesus."

Christ (Messiah) refers to the Anointed One chosen by God to be the Savior of all who believe.

"Received a faith" Here we have one of those ambiguous phrases that are interpreted to mean whatever the presumptive doctrine of the interpreter requires. The word rendered "received" is frequently rendered "obtained" with the idea whatever was obtained was obtained by chance (such as casting lots) or through an action of another. Faith as used here refers to our salvation, with a saved Gentile being equal to a saved Jew. Thus "received a faith" should be understood to mean "obtained a salvation."

And we obtained this "faith" through the righteousness of our God and our Savior Jesus Christ. This verse presents the truth of the deity of Christ boldly and unequivocally.

You claim others used deflection, and you did that very well in this post.

You deflected from the focused meaning of 2 Peter by inappropriately diverting attention to spellings, definitions, names, and claiming something is ambiguous when it wasn't.

I congratulate you on demonstrating how to post deflection.

Just so that you and the casual readers may not be taken by deflections, but appropriate reflection, here are three sources of the opening of the passage of 2 Peter, followed by a short step-list beginning with "received (obtained)."

2 Peter 1:

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: (ESV)

Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: (NASB)

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: (KJV)​

It matters not what good translation is used, they all state the same focus.

The focus is on the faith. The faith was:

1) Received (obtained). The faith was not accrued by human effort, nor was such faith innate in human capacity, nor was the faith an ability of the nature of the human.
2) Same kind (like precious) - of equal value, of equal standing, of the same quality, that of particular value.
3) By - the source of
4) righteousness of (our) God - excluded any lesser source
5) And - connecting word showing additional information
6) Savior (Saviour) - specific action done for those incapable in themself of achieving.
7) Jesus Christ - the name of the Savior and the office held.
​

It is impossible for the reader to draw any other conclusions than those seven points concerning "the faith" of which the Apostles and believers have.

There is NO "ambiguous phrase," nor was it necessary to write about definitions, names, spellings or whatever for what could be taken as a personal agenda against those that you disagree.

Please try not to display so blatantly what you accuse others of doing.

 

[percho]

More deflection with utter nonsense. More mindless questions. More false claims.
I did not write or inspire Romans chapter 4.
Scripture, properly understood all fits together. For example, there are none of the lost who are righteous, but those born anew are "made righteous." There, there is none righteous means there is none who are righteous at all times.
Scripture says God does credit human faith, therefore your assertion is unbiblical and wrong.

The issue is God wills to give grace to those whose faith He credits as righteousness.

The issue is God wills to give grace to those whose faith He credits as righteousness.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Not because from within ourselves, something we think about him or think he did but because of something he was obedient unto.

Faith is a noun. We are made the righteousness of God because Son learned the obedience of death, even the death of the cross. Heb 5:7,8 & Phil 2:8,9

In Phil 2 the very next word is wherefore, because of this, God (the Father) exalted him on high and gave him a name. See Heb 1:4,5 by inheritance obtained a name.

IMHO that is the faith whereby we are made the righteousness of God whether we believe it or not. That is what is credited to us, the death and life of Christ. Rom 6