The Effects Of Calvinism On Scripture

[MB]

In Calvinism the only truth I can see is always partial. It seems a man really has to work hard to remain a Calvinist. Always reinterpreting scripture so as to support the doctrine it self. Example Calvinist love eph 1 1 -11
In this passage they Claim election of them selves to Salvation. I'm sure most Calvinist have read this passage but they always stops at verse 11.
When you read verses 12 - 13 it goes directly against what they are preaching..
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Paul believed we must first trust in Christ and then the next verse it says;
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Calvinist that I have spoke with believe they were saved first so they could believe, but this verse states that we believe and trusted Christ first and are then sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. This is also contrary to Calvinism. Calvinist often leave these two verses out of there quoting scripture because it is in direct conflict with core principles of there doctrines.
Jn 3:16 Says God so loves the world. Yet Calvinist realize this contradicts there belief and do there best to claim the word "world" does not mean everyone except the elect. Even though no where is there even one verse stating that Gentiles are now elect.

In Eph 1:9 it says the mystery of his will is made known.
Yet strange as it may seem they still do not know God's will. They claim it's the opposite of freewill even though 2nd Cor 8:12 says
2Co_8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

Calvinism repulses me when they Claim God receives Glory from the death of the Lost in Hell.
2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
This last verse refers only to the elect. Just where does it say this?
Calvinism's effect on scripture is to misinterpret it to support there doctrine.
MB

 

[Particular]

Change the title to:
The effects of Scripture on John Calvin and we can talk.
Change it to:
The effects of Scripture on Particular and we can talk.
As it stands, the OP is just grinding his crutch upon which he props his bigotry.

 

[Dave G]

It seems a man really has to work hard to remain a Calvinist.

I don't have to work hard at all to see "TULIP" anymore, MB.

Individual election is littered throughout Scripture.

Always reinterpreting scripture so as to support the doctrine it self.

I wouldn't say, "re-interpreting", as I don't think the Bible needs that.
I firmly stand on the fact that it needs to be believed by those who profess Christ.

I stand on every word of God and believe it both at face value, and according to the context it is written in.
When I read Scripture, I don't see it in "verses" anymore, like I did when I was sitting in Independent Baptist churches when I was young.

Example Calvinist love eph 1 1 -11
In this passage they Claim election of them selves to Salvation. I'm sure most Calvinist have read this passage but they always stops at verse 11.

I don't.
But then again, I don't follow the teachings of John Calvin, so I suppose that makes me an exception to the rule.

 

[Dave G]

When you read verses 12 - 13 it goes directly against what they are preaching..
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Here's the passage:

" in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 in whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," ( Ephesians 1:11-13 )

The "first" here is Paul and those that have believed before the Ephesians did.
He then goes on to tell them that they did the same, and were sealed with the Holy Ghost as well.

Taking other passages into account, belief comes as a result of God's grace ( John 6:29 ), not as a result of man's will.
Again, being born again is not by man's will, but by God's ( John 1:13, James 1:18 ).

The Lord works in one of His children, and they then follow His command ( Philippians 2:13 ).

Paul believed we must first trust in Christ and then the next verse it says;
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Amen.
First a person trusts, and then they are sealed ( indwelt ) with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Nowhere, however, does this passage deal with being born again...
Only with "sealing", which is the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

They are not the same.

Calvinist that I have spoke with believe they were saved first so they could believe, but this verse states that we believe and trusted Christ first and are then sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise.

I agree.

This is also contrary to Calvinism.

If by "Calvinism" you mean "TULIP", I would ask, "How?"
This passage does not deal with "regeneration" ( the new birth ).
To me, this is assumed by the "non-Calvinist" as happening at the same time.

It does not.
Please see Acts of the Apostles 16:14, where Lydia has her heart opened by the Lord, so that she then begins to listen to what Paul has to say.

The new birth happens before the receipt of the words of the Gospel, in a person that is saved.
They then are made ready to receive the words.
After hearing them, they then trust in Christ and are indwelt ( sealed ) by the Holy Spirit.

As I see it, this threatens the "doctrine" that a man can "simply believe", thereby obligating God to regenerate them and make them a new creature in Christ.
By sticking to the Scriptures that detail how and why someone is born again, a different "picture" is presented.

God does all the work and saves whom He wills, not whom we will ( Romans 9:14-18 ).

 

[Dave G]

Calvinist often leave these two verses out of there quoting scripture because it is in direct conflict with core principles of there doctrines.

I disagree, and see no reason to include the verses, should the occasion arise to use them.

In fact, I'd be willing to develop the entire passage of Ephesians 1, line by line, if that will satisfy the OP.

Jn 3:16 Says God so loves the world. Yet Calvinist realize this contradicts there belief and do there best to claim the word "world" does not mean everyone except the elect.

John 3:16 is often used in an attempt to state that God loves all men...
He does not.

Psalms 5:5, Psalms 11:5 and several others including Romans 9:13 declare God's hatred of not just the sin, but the sinner.
The Psalms, among other Scriptures, tell us that He loves certain sinners, and hates others.

So, if God loves all men, yet hates not just the sin, but also the sinner themselves... we have a contradiction.
In order to resolve this, the "Calvinist" goes one way, and the "non-Calvinist" goes another.

For example,
The "Calvinist" understands love to mean love, and hate to mean hate, at least in most places in God's word.
The "non-Calvinist" understands love to mean love, but "softens" the word hate to mean "loves less" in many passages.

Even though no where is there even one verse stating that Gentiles are now elect.

This has been answered several times in the past 2 weeks.
For example, please see post # 53 here:

Ephesians 2

 

[Dave G]

In Eph 1:9 it says the mystery of his will is made known.
Yet strange as it may seem they still do not know God's will.

The mystery of His will in Ephesians 1:9, is clearly stated in Ephesians 1:10:

" that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:"

Prior to Paul revealing it by the inspiration of the Spirit to the Ephesians, it was unknown to believers, as a group.

They claim it's the opposite of freewill even though 2nd Cor 8:12 says
2Co_8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

In 2 Corinthians 8, Paul is telling the church at Corinth about the churches in Macedonia, and how they had, even though poor in finances, had abounded in the support of the body of Christ, liberally...
They gave themselves for service to Paul and to Titus, selflessly.

He commends the Corinthians for doing the same, and encourages them to abound in the same grace given to Paul and to Titus that the Macedonians had.
In verse 8 he tells them that he speaks to them, not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others and to prove the sincerity of their love...

He then tells them of the grace of Jesus Christ, how He was rich, and yet became poor for their sake...
That through His poverty and sacrifice, believers might be rich.

In verse 10, Paul advises them:
It is expedient for those who had begun doing this before, not only to do it, but to also to be forward about ( making it known among the brethren ) a year ago.
In verse 11, he continues, telling them that, as there was a readiness to will, so they should keep performing what they were doing for the body of Christ.

Now we come to verse 12:

" For if there be first a willing mind, [it is] accepted according to that a man hath, [and] not according to that he hath not.
13 For [I mean] not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
14 but by an equality, [that] now at this time your abundance [may be a supply] for their want, that their abundance also may be [a supply] for your want: that there may be equality:
15 as it is written, He that [had] gathered much had nothing over; and he that [had gathered] little had no lack." ( 2 Corinthians 8:12-15 ).

Basically put without getting into the details of each verse line by line, Paul is telling the Corinthians that if there be a willing mind, it is accepted with God according to what a man has ( how they serve the body of Christ ).
As brothers and sisters, they should be equal.
One believer's abundance should meet the other believer's lack.

Lesson:
Selfless service to the body of Christ is a virtue.

Therefore, the use of verse 13 in no way proves that all men have a will to seek God, as Paul here is speaking to the believers at Corinth about being willing to serve one another in the body of Christ.

Romans 3:10-18 still stands as an accurate, from-God evaluation of all men outside of the gracious forgiveness of God through His Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[Dave G]

Calvinism repulses me when they Claim God receives Glory from the death of the Lost in Hell.

I sympathize with your feelings, MB.

Yet, that is what Scripture teaches ( not John Calvin ).
Every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
To the glory of God the Father.

Whether those people are suffering for their sins in Hell, or are praising God for His grace to them, it is all for His glorification.
He is glorified in those He has made righteous by the blood of His dear Son, and glorified in His righteous judgment of the lost, who are fully responsible for their sins.

One gets what they don't deserve, the other gets what they do.
One gets salvation by grace, the other gets eternal punishment for sins willfully committed in rebellion against God's commands.

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
This last verse refers only to the elect. Just where does it say this?

Respectfully, this has been answered many times.

The "usward" in verse 9 refers to the "beloved" in verse 8, not to all men.
Therefore, the "usward" that He is not willing that any perish, are Christ's sheep, the "whsoever believeth"...the same as in John 3:16, John 3:36, John 6:39 and John 10:28-29.

Calvinism's effect on scripture is to misinterpret it to support there doctrine.

Again, I disagree.
It's a matter of simply believing the words as they are laid out on the page, and in their proper contexts.

May God bless you sir.

 

[Jerome]

Yes, even Spurgeon rebuked Calvinists for their wrenching of I Timothy 2:4 to fit their grand scheme:

"What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. "All men," say they, —"that is, some men": as if the Holy Ghost could not have said "some men" if he had meant some men. "All men," say they; "that is, some of all sorts of men": as if the Lord could not have said "all sorts of men" if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written "all men," and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the "alls" according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. I thought when I read his exposition that it would have been a very capital comment upon the text if it had read, "Who will not have all men to be saved, nor come to a knowledge of the truth."Had such been the inspired language every remark of the learned doctor would have been exactly in keeping, but as it happens to say, "Who will have all men to be saved," his observations are more than a little out of place. My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God. I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself, for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God that I should want to lop away a bough or even a twig from so much as a single tree of the forest of Scripture. God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression. So runs the text, and so we must read it, "God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."" —"Salvation By Knowing the Truth"

 

[Dave G]

Yes, even Spurgeon rebuked Calvinists for their wrenching of I Timothy 2:4 to fit their grand scheme:

That's why Spurgeon and I disagree.

If God truly desires to save all men, what is stopping Him?
Us?

Our will?

"...and all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" ( Daniel 4:35 ).

God gets what He wants.
Our pitiful efforts at resisting Him couldn't stop the rain, much less His judgment of us.

 

[Reformed1689]

Again @MB shows that he has no idea what the Doctrines of Grace actually are or what people who hold to those biblical doctrines actually believe.

 

[MB]

I sympathize with your feelings, MB.

Yet, that is what Scripture teaches ( not John Calvin ).
Every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
To the glory of God the Father.

Whether those people are suffering for their sins in Hell, or are praising God for His grace to them, it is all for His glorification.
He is glorified in those He has made righteous by the blood of His dear Son, and glorified in His righteous judgment of the lost, who are fully responsible for their sins.

One gets what they don't deserve, the other gets what they do.
One gets salvation by grace, the other gets eternal punishment for sins willfully committed in rebellion against God's commands.

Respectfully, this has been answered many times.

The "usward" in verse 9 refers to the "beloved" in verse 8, not to all men.
Therefore, the "usward" that He is not willing that any perish, are Christ's sheep, the "whsoever believeth"...the same as in John 3:16, John 3:36, John 6:39 and John 10:28-29.


Again, I disagree.
It's a matter of simply believing the words as they are laid out on the page, and in their proper contexts.

May God bless you sir.

Not true Scripture does not teach the lost bring God glory when they burn in Hell.

 

[Scott Downey]

In Calvinism the only truth I can see is always partial. It seems a man really has to work hard to remain a Calvinist. Always reinterpreting scripture so as to support the doctrine it self. Example Calvinist love eph 1 1 -11
In this passage they Claim election of them selves to Salvation. I'm sure most Calvinist have read this passage but they always stops at verse 11.
When you read verses 12 - 13 it goes directly against what they are preaching..
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Paul believed we must first trust in Christ and then the next verse it says;
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Calvinist that I have spoke with believe they were saved first so they could believe, but this verse states that we believe and trusted Christ first and are then sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. This is also contrary to Calvinism. Calvinist often leave these two verses out of there quoting scripture because it is in direct conflict with core principles of there doctrines.
Jn 3:16 Says God so loves the world. Yet Calvinist realize this contradicts there belief and do there best to claim the word "world" does not mean everyone except the elect. Even though no where is there even one verse stating that Gentiles are now elect.

In Eph 1:9 it says the mystery of his will is made known.
Yet strange as it may seem they still do not know God's will. They claim it's the opposite of freewill even though 2nd Cor 8:12 says
2Co_8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

Calvinism repulses me when they Claim God receives Glory from the death of the Lost in Hell.
2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
This last verse refers only to the elect. Just where does it say this?
Calvinism's effect on scripture is to misinterpret it to support there doctrine.
MB

You do not believe the ministry of condemnation was glorious?

 

[Dave G]

Confusion of which you are engulfed. You make truth even harder to understand with your obvious rebellion to the truth.

I understand it just fine, MB.

But there was a time, not all that long ago, when I did not.

I suspect Satan has a lot to do with making truth invisible.

I would have to agree with you:

" But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-6 ).

God allows Satan to blind the lost to the truth of the Gospel.
But He commands the light to shine in the believer's heart, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God, in the face of Jesus Christ, His Son.

 

[MB]

You do not believe the ministry of condemnation was glorious?

I do not believe in Calvinism and no I do not believe God receives glory from the lost burning in hell. He word says;
Eze_33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Here God pleaded with them to turn from there ways.
MB

 

[Scott Downey]

I understand it just fine, MB.

But there was a time, not all that long ago, when I did not.

I would have to agree with you:

" But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-6 ).

God allows Satan to blind the lost to the truth of the Gospel.
But He commands the light to shine in the believer's heart, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God, in the face of Jesus Christ, His Son.

It is more accurate to say our hearts. That is why we believe due to Him shining His light in our hearts. It is an issue here of what comes first, the shining or the Believing and we don't get shined into because we believe.

 

[Dave G]

Not true Scripture does not teach the lost bring God glory when they burn in Hell.

" so that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 [which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day." ( 2 Thessalonians 1:4-10 ).

Believers shall glorify God for not sending them to Hell where they belong.
Therefore, the lost bring glory to God by His righteous and Just judgment of their sins, and the saved bring glory to God for Him not sending them to join them.

The lost are sent to just punishment because of His wrath and holiness, while the justified remain with Him for eternity, praising Him for His grace and mercy to them.
Glory and praise will come to Him from His saints, while they watch their fellows judged for what they should be being judged for.

..and yes, it is very sobering MB.
In fact, I don't type any of this lightly.

He inspires me to a sober and careful respect of Him with His holiness and power to do what He wishes ( Daniel 4:35 ),
and comforts me at the same time because of His love for me ( 1 John 4:19 ).
If you think for a moment that I'm exulting in my own efforts to gain favor with God, you couldn't be any further from the truth.
Even the privilege to believe on His Son was given to me ( Philippians 1:29 ).

It's also not called "the terror of the Lord" ( 2 Corinthians 5:11 ) for nothing.
Many who think they are saved, are not ( Matthew 7:21-23 ), and that makes me sit and contemplate exactly what it is that I have.

I stand on nothing except His mercy and grace ( Titus 3:5-6 ).

 

[Dave G]

So...
The effects of "Calvinism" on Scripture?
"It" doesn't have any.

The biblical doctrines of His grace are derived out of Scripture:

Man's frightfully dead condition towards God,
His power to do as He wishes with sinful and willfully rebellious men,
His decision to redeem a portion of mankind for Himself to an eternal relationship with Him,
The atonement and His decision to glorify Himself in His Son,
His mercy and "irresistible grace" towards men,
His decision not to save most of mankind, but reserve them to righteous punishment,
His decision to leave men in their rebellious state in order to judge them in His righteousness,
His desire to specifically make vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy,
His declaration that His elect shall endure all their trials and tribulations in this life,
His decision to reveal all of this to His elect by His word...

All of these truths have an effect.

They result in the Lord being praised and glorified ( heart-felt and honest praise brought to ) through the objects of His grace.

Those objects are those who have believed on Jesus Christ, from the heart, and have confessed Him by the mouth, through everything that comes at them in this life...
Even their deaths, should He wish them to suffer through that.

Those that endure to the end, are saved.
Their faith is the evidence of that grace towards them, not the means by which they gain His favor.

With that, I take my leave of this thread so that others may comment without me interjecting.


I wish you well, MB, and I truly hope that He blesses you greatly, sir.

 

[MB]

Change the title to:
The effects of Scripture on John Calvin and we can talk.
Change it to:
The effects of Scripture on Particular and we can talk.
As it stands, the OP is just grinding his crutch upon which he props his bigotry.

There is a path to God, only one way. There is not any other way and the gospel is that way. Calvinism destroys the gospel through there false interpretation of scripture.They make it in to bad news.
MB

 

[Particular]

There is a path to God, only one way. There is not any other way and the gospel is that way. Calvinism destroys the gospel through there false interpretation of scripture.They make it in to bad news.
MB

Indeed.
However, the path requires a key to enter, which only God can open.
MB, we would not need saving if we could open the path ourselves.
The question is: Do you resent God and think He is evil because He alone possesses the key and He chooses to whom He will open the door of the gate?

I suggest you read Paul Bunyan's classic, "Pilgrims Progress" if you wish to understand this analogy.

 

[MB]

Indeed.
However, the path requires a key to enter, which only God can open.
MB, we would not need saving if we could open the path ourselves.
The question is: Do you resent God and think He is evil because He alone possesses the key and He chooses to whom He will open the door of the gate?

I suggest you read Paul Bunyan's classic, "Pilgrims Progress" if you wish to understand this analogy.

God does not draw men to Him with out reason. His reason is always Salvation. All men can reject the draw and go there own way. The Jews did and it made them Blind. There is always Choice and consequence. We are either punished or rewarded for our choices.
I do not believe God is ever evil. And I do not believe there is a locked gate on the path to Salvation. Peter wrote;
2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
If God is willing and He is the gate is wide open.
.
MB