Jesus Christ is NOT God's criterion for election?!

[Dave G]

Apologies to the OP for reversing my decision to not reply again in the thread,
but I thought it prudent to address one of its posters a final time:

HI Dave, once again your assertions are bogus

Thanks for the disparaging comment, Van,
Or at least that is the way it comes across to me.

May I suggest that when you object to someone's treatment of you, that you also be mindful of how you come across to others?

I admit to having difficulty in that area, but I'm learning every day that it is more important how I say something, than it is to simply pop things off the top of my head.
It's been difficult since I've joined this forum, but it seems the Lord is granting me power over my nasty flesh, and He is making progress in me.

However, I've still a long way to go, I imagine.

In the meantime, may I make a suggestion?
How about re-wording a post like the above to state:
" His Dave, once again I respectfully find that I must disagree with you" or something along those lines?

Since the Lord tells us that in many things we offend all ( James 3:2 ), and to leave off strife ( fighting ), unless we want to really get things going ( Proverbs 17:14 ), it is therefore best if we watch our comments carefully, so as to minimize the effect that they have when they are received.
Wouldn't you agree?

I put this out there knowing full well that I have not been as obedient in this area as I would have liked to have been, and there are doubtless members here that would agree with my observation...
But on my end, I promise to keep working at it because I really would like to eventually come to the place that I am void of offense towards both God and men.

May He also bless you in your efforts to be at peace with all.

 

[Dave G]

Ask yourself how an "appointment" is made at your doctor's office.

Respectfully, I don't feel the need to Van.
I simply believe the words as they are laid out on the page.

The higher authority provides a date and time and you agree.

With respect to my gift of eternal life ( Romans 6:23 ), I didn't have a say to what my "higher authority" appointed me to...
I came to Him when He called me by His Gospel.

However,

If I were appointed to wrath rather than to obtain salvation by my Lord Jesus Christ ( 1 Thessalonians 5:9 ), then that would be the appointment that I would keep.
My agreement with God or my disagreement with Him would make no difference in the outcome.
It is an appointment that I would be forced to keep, kicking and screaming if necessary.

Because when everything is said and done,
I deserve His wrath, and not His unspeakable gift.

So the word includes both that the higher authority decides, determines, establishes the requirement, and then you or whoever is being "appointed" agrees, thus an appointment by mutual agreement.

I believe that we've covered this ground a time or two before, sir.

The Greek word ( and the words around it ) does not contain the idea of mutual consent, and never has...
Neither does the context of the verse itself, nor the other passages that establish God having mercy on some and not others, nor the passages that develop why one person believes and another does not.

If you want to read that concept into it, then that is, of course, your prerogative to do so.

This is the meaning in Acts 13:48, those that agreed with the gospel requirements believed.

In my own experience with believing God's word, I found that I simply believed them...
and there was no pause between hearing or reading them, and then wrestling with the decision of whether or not to believe them.
I received them as God's words, with no reservations.

I sincerely and honestly hope that you are willing to do the same.
That said,

Agreeing to meet requirements that then result in gaining God's favor is not salvation by grace, Van.
That is salvation by works.
Co-operating with God and God "operatively" saving someone are two entirely different doctrinal teachings.

Since salvation is "of the Lord", and leaves nothing for the object of His salvation to boast in except Him and His mercy ( Titus 3:5-6 ),
then election according to the good pleasure of His will is the only thing that can determine why one is saved, and another is not.
I wish you well, sir, and I hope that the Lord shows you, someday, what the difference is between works and grace ( Romans 4:4, Romans 11:5-6 ).

To me, you are still fixating on the idea that man can do something for God, instead of what God did ( and does ) for those who believe.

Hopefully this will now be my last reply in this thread.


May God bless you all in your studies.

 

[Benjamin]

I am a reader and you have addressed Ben's concerns.

Your philokophical opinion is obviously weak on Basic Logic and Critical Thinking Skills, Icon.

 

[MB]

Nowhere in Acts does it say that anyone was born again, either!

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
MB

 

[MB]

I think if you're going to characterize Calvinism fairly, Jesus Christ is the criterion, because Jesus is God, and choose whom he desires to save.

I don't think the above is a good argument.

What do you use to support that God chooses who to save?.
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
MB

That does not say the words born again does it MB?)
That is the same as you saying it does not say election.
So according to you no one in Acts is born again.

 

[MB]

That does not say the words born again does it MB?)
That is the same as you saying it does not say election.
So according to you no one in Acts is born again.

Why is it that you distort everything a free willer says. "Save" means to be born again. It's just another way of saying it and God said it do you really want to criticize God. No it isn't the same because the first verse implies born again.
MB

 

[Van]

Respectfully, I don't feel the need to Van.
I simply believe the words as they are laid out on the page. [Right, you seem to feel the need to sidestep the actual meaning of an appointment made by mutual agreement.]

With respect to my gift of eternal life ( Romans 6:23 ), I didn't have a say to what my "higher authority" appointed me to... [Not what the Greek word actually indicates, you agreed with the requirements]
I came to Him when He called me by His Gospel. [By came to Him, are you referring to God putting you in Christ after you had heard and learned from the Father?]

However,

If I were appointed to wrath rather than to obtain salvation by my Lord Jesus Christ ( 1 Thessalonians 5:9 ), then that would be the appointment that I would keep. [LOL, the Greek word translated appointed in 1 Thess. 5:9 actually refers to a unilateral placement, not an agreement by mutual consent. Thus your view mistranslates both Greek words.]

The Greek word ( and the words around it ) does not contain the idea of mutual consent, and never has... [Utter nonsense, the word refers to an agreement by mutual consent]
Neither does the context of the verse itself, nor the other passages that establish God having mercy on some and not others, nor the passages that develop why one person believes and another does not. [Do you ever grow weary to making vague references to non-existent support for bogus doctrine?]

If you want to read that concept into it, then that is, of course, your prerogative to do so. [The meaning of the word is there for all to see, whereas your redefining the word meaning is bogus]

In my own experience with believing God's word, I found that I simply believed them...
and there was no pause between hearing or reading them, and then wrestling with the decision of whether or not to believe them.
I received them as God's words, with no reservations.

I sincerely and honestly hope that you are willing to do the same.
That said,

Agreeing to meet requirements that then result in gaining God's favor is not salvation by grace, Van.
That is salvation by works. [Once again the denial of Romans 4:4-5, a salvation through faith is not a works salvation.]
Co-operating with God and God "operatively" saving someone are two entirely different doctrinal teachings.[God established the requirement, "everyone believing in Him" and your view denies that requirement.]

Since salvation is "of the Lord", and leaves nothing for the object of His salvation to boast in except Him and His mercy ( Titus 3:5-6 ), [Putting our trust in the One who justifies is nothing for us to boast about]
then election according to the good pleasure of His will is the only thing that can determine why one is saved, and another is not. [Yes God chooses individuals through faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13]
I wish you well, sir, and I hope that the Lord shows you, someday, what the difference is between works and grace ( Romans 4:4, Romans 11:5-6 ). [Why not reference Romans 4:5?]

To me, you are still fixating on the idea that man can do something for God, instead of what God did ( and does ) for those who believe. [Your denial of scripture after scripture disqualifies your view]

Hopefully this will now be my last reply in this thread. [Hopefully, you will come to your senses and believe scripture as written]


May God bless you all in your studies.

 

[Iconoclast]

Why is it that you distort everything a free willer says. "Save" means to be born again. It's just another way of saying it and God said it do you really want to criticize God. No it isn't the same because the first verse implies born again.
MB

As many as were ordained to eternal life,believed is saying elect gentiles believed, yet you insist it does not mean that. You have posted the word election is not found. I am just using your method to look at the book of Acts.

 

[George Antonios]

We're not chosen apart from Christ.

We are chosen "in Him"...from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).

Yes you are chosen apart from Christ because you already told me in a previous thread that you were chosen to be in Christ. Remember?

 

[George Antonios]

Scripture says that Jesus Christ is not the criterion for election.

And there it is. Imagine the word of God teaching this blasphemy...This is the end point of Calvinism: Chosen apart from Christ - to be in Christ, yes - but apart from Christ.

I rest my case.

 

[Walpole]

And there it is. Imagine the word of God teaching this blasphemy...This is the end point of Calvinism: Chosen apart from Christ - to be in Christ, yes - but apart from Christ.

I rest my case.

They fell on their own sword. Astonishing admission.

 

[Particular]

And there it is. Imagine the word of God teaching this blasphemy...This is the end point of Calvinism: Chosen apart from Christ - to be in Christ, yes - but apart from Christ.

I rest my case.

Well, this is a flat out lie.
Calvinists believe this:

Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

 

[George Antonios]

Well, this is a flat out lie.
Calvinists believe this:

Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

DID YOU READ THE ADMISSIONS IN THE THREAD?! It's not a lie, read up brother!
And the issue under discussion is election, not salvation.
You did not read the thread, that's clear!!!

Where's @InTheLight to quote one of his numbers when you need him?!

 

[George Antonios]

They fell on their own sword. Astonishing admission.

They admitted in another thread but it went un-noticed, so I wanted all to see it.

They will admit to the doctrine of being chosen apart from Christ because it makes them more humble than non-Calvinists. Their appearing humble is that important to them. That's both ends and the middle of it.

 

[Particular]

DID YOU READ THE ADMISSIONS IN THE THREAD?! It's not a lie, read up brother!
And the issue under discussion is election, not salvation.
You did not read the thread, that's clear!!!

Where's @InTheLight to quote one of his numbers when you need him?!

What does the Bible tell us?
Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

I have read up. I have seen what the Bible says. I do not shut my eyes to verses and then make a blanket assertion.
Read the verses I share. It proves my point.
What I note is that the accusations thrown around are always based upon some undefined generalization couched in the word "Calvinist." It is always used with distain, but it is never supported by scripture. What does that tell me? It tells me that these people (you) are ignorantly creating a crutch from your own imaginations that is unsupported by biblical fact.

 

[George Antonios]

What does the Bible tell us?
Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

I have read up. I have seen what the Bible says. I do not shut my eyes to verses and then make a blanket assertion.
Read the verses I share. It proves my point.
What I note is that the accusations thrown around are always based upon some undefined generalization couched in the word "Calvinist." It is always used with distain, but it is never supported by scripture. What does that tell me? It tells me that these people (you) are ignorantly creating a crutch from your own imaginations that is unsupported by biblical fact.

You did not read up. I did not lie.



That's post #59.

 

[George Antonios]

Well, this is a flat out lie.
Calvinists believe this:

Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

And so now let me ask YOU, @Particular, since I'm lying and misrepresenting. Do YOU believe that God's criterion for electing someone is Jesus Christ?

 

[Particular]

You did not read up. I did not lie.

View attachment 3387

That's post #59.

What does Ephesians 2:4-5 say, George. Those who you label as "Calvinists" believe what Ephesians 2:4-5 says. Why can't you accept it?

Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

 

[Particular]

And so now let me ask YOU, @Particular, since I'm lying and misrepresenting. Do YOU believe that God's criterion for electing someone is Jesus Christ?

What does the Bible say?
What does grace mean to you?
To me, grace means unmerited favor? This means exactly what it says.
So, how did God elect before the foundation of the world? I am unaware of any scripture that tells us what criterion he set out in his elective process. If you have scripture that details God's process, please share. Otherwise, I believe God has not revealed anything to us regarding his election of corrupt and wicked humans so that he might justify them by his grace in his perfect time.
God's criterion is hid to us. It is his and his alone to know.
George, it seems to me that you are simply trying to obfuscate election. I have no idea what your agenda is in this.
Either you accept that God is the Supreme Sovereign King who makes decisions without counsel from created beings, or you consider him weak and incapable of directing that which he has created.
Do you think God is Sovereign, or do you, like MB, deny it?