Ephesians 2

[Van]

We agree that everyone is born “spiritually dead in sin”.

• [Rom 3:10-12 NASB] 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
  
• [Eph 2:1-3 NASB] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

However, there is no “THUS”. You have made a non sequitur (the conclusion does not follow from the evidence that preceded it). We do not agree that no one is “elect” at birth, we merely agree that no one is born justified at birth. Election is not the same as justification.

• [Rom 8:28-30 NASB] 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

All things are “according to HIS purpose”, so God is the first cause and the prime mover in what follows, not the will of man. God FOREKNEW, God PREDESTINED and God CALLED all before God Justified, so where is the smoking gun that utterly refutes the possibility that God’s “Chosen” (aka ‘elect’) were Foreknown and Predestined before they were born (like Moses and Sampson and John the Baptist) and were “chosen/elect” even before they were called and they came into the fullness of their relationship at “just the right time” (like Moses at the burning bush or Saul on the road to Damascus).

I did not see where you explained how a spiritual dead person could be elect, or not yet justified. If a person is not yet justified, then a charge can be made detailing their sins. But if a person is justified, no charge can be made because our all powerful God had made them righteous.

Next you seem not to understand my view of Romans 8:28-30. First, the chain starts with those individuals that love God. Therefore during their lifetime and not before creation. Next, they are "called" meaning they have been transferred into Christ, according to God's purpose.

Next, verse 29, God says He foreknew those who have been redeemed. This means He formulated His plan of redemption beforehand (before creation) and the plan including redeeming believers as the target group of the plan, and that those redeemed would also be predestined to be (1) conformed to the image of His Son, and (2) predestined to be raised in glorified bodies at Christ's second coming.

Now in verse 30, referring back to His redemption plan, and the target group of believers, God says He also at the present time (1) called (transferred in Christ) and also (2) justified (by the washing of regeneration) and (3) glorified (by seating them in the heavenlies.)

 

[atpollard]

My view presents God as all powerful and all knowing, but a God who desires all people to be saved according to His predetermined plan, which is by persuasion and not compulsion.

[Jhn 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

ἑλκύσῃ
STRONGS G1670 = helkýō, hel-koo'-o; probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively)

 

[atpollard]

I did not see where you explained how a spiritual dead person could be elect, or not yet justified. If a person is not yet justified, then a charge can be made detailing their sins. But if a person is justified, no charge can be made because our all powerful God had made them righteous.

Satan (the accuser) is constantly making charges against all of mankind ... so what. The only time a charge matters is when it is being judged in Court by the Law. For matters of "God and man" the place for THAT judgement is the Bema Seat of Christ after we are dead. Charges made against us before all of the facts are in (like our ultimate Justification by His blood) are meaningless. Charges made after our Justification are false.

Next you seem not to understand my view of Romans 8:28-30. First, the chain starts with those individuals that love God. Therefore during their lifetime and not before creation. Next, they are "called" meaning they have been transferred into Christ, according to God's purpose.

Next, verse 29, God says He foreknew those who have been redeemed. This means He formulated His plan of redemption beforehand (before creation) and the plan including redeeming believers as the target group of the plan, and that those redeemed would also be predestined to be (1) conformed to the image of His Son, and (2) predestined to be raised in glorified bodies at Christ's second coming.

Now in verse 30, referring back to His redemption plan, and the target group of believers, God says He also at the present time (1) called (transferred in Christ) and also (2) justified (by the washing of regeneration) and (3) glorified (by seating them in the heavenlies.)

The verb tense and sentence construct does not support your view.

The exact same people are "foreknown" and "predestined" and "called" and "justified" and "glorified", so it is either all INDIVIDUAL or it is all CORPORATE. I believe that the intent is clearly "individual", but just to examine the consequences of the "Corporate" argument:

• The Roman Catholic Church is correct that God saves His church as a collective entity with all members of the church being swept along by virtue of their membership. It is simply a NEW "nation of Israel" grafted into the Covenant.
• There is no individual Justification, so verses that speak of a "personal relationship" are being misinterpreted and must be reexamined as a collective thing. For example, the receipt of the Holy Spirit is a promise for the COLLECTIVE body, not the individual believer. The Holy Spirit guides the Church (through Apostles, Prophets and Teachers) and the "Church" guides the people.
• "Foreknew" is robbed of any real meaning ... God knows everything, so knowing that some undetermined group will be saved is a "so what" revelation.
• "Predestined" is robbed of any real meaning ... God knew that the Father would send the Son to die; another "so what" revelation that God knows His own plans.
• "Called" is also robbed of any personal reference since "those GOD predestined, GOD also called" and "those GOD called, GOD also justified". So the CHURCH (collectively) is predestined and called and justified. The individuals are not "called" by God.
• "Justified" takes a huge hit as God's plan no longer seeks to justify individual people, but rather to collectively justify this predestined entity called THE CHURCH. Individuals are saved by hitching their cart to the CHURCH and getting pulled along to the collective "glorification" that awaits this collective CHURCH.

You will now claim that I have misunderstood what you believe. Probably so. However these are the logical conclusions demanded by the assumption that the "Golden Chain" is corporate rater than individual, so you will ultimately need to address these issues to fully exegete the paragraph in Romans 8.

 

[agedman]

This is laughable!

Van states

Once again, an effort to change the subject from Ephesians 2 to bashing Van. Twaddle, sandbox twaddle.

​

But what is his previous post?

Yet another taint so post, devoid of any defense of obviously false doctrine.

When a person is chosen they are chosen through sanctification (being set apart in Christ). When a person is set apart in Christ, they undergo the circumcision of Christ, and the washing of regeneration. Therefore, when a person is individually placed in Christ they are justified. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

When God chooses an individual for salvation, they become one of God's chosen people, the elect. When they are chosen, they are placed in Christ, justified, and therefore they are no longer dead in their sin, they are alive together with Christ. So if a person is dead in sin, they are not elect at that time.

Not a word about Ephesians 2.

Just pointing out his inconsistent ways.

​

Each and every person listed fits Van's Biblical understanding.

Every figure conforms to Van's Biblical presentation.

No, EVERY one of them were elected with God’s direct purpose prior to even their birth.

Don’t you love it when one becomes so impressed with their own view, one would claim it “Van’s Biblical” in spite of unnumbered attempts by scholarly folks using scholarship from Scriptures DIRECTLY REFUTING that presentation?

All the names of the redeemed are written in the Lamb's book of life after they have been made perfect. Which means after God credits their faith as righteousness and places them in Christ.

My view is God makes and carries out plans, whereas this Calvinist claimed God does not make or formulate plans.

Such puffery!

Yet he refutes his own claim that “ALL the names ... written .... after they ... made perfect, in the very next paragraph!

The bible describes when Peter and Christ's other disciples were chosen to be His apostles. And of course that matches Van's Biblical presentation of the individual elections of God.

Do you see him continue to be forced by Scripture into disputing that “ALL?”

Then claims it fits “Van’s Biblical presentation?”

No it doesn’t.

Again, he is inconsistent in application because it ISNT the Biblical view.

He continues to dispute himself, again in the next sentences.

Just read Acts 16:6-10, where Paul was told in a vision to go to Macedonia.

Does the Bible teach God sometimes does pre-select individuals to carry out His plans years before they are born? Of course, so all this misrepresentation is just another fabrication of deflection, falsehood upon falsehood.

Again, he shows how he is inconsistent in application., disputing himself. “All” is not “all.”

Ultimately, Van’s thinking is as the Marine propaganda recruitment:

God chooses a “few good men” and the rest can upon their own will perhaps serve in lesser roles, if, and only if, they can conjure up enough faith to meet some nebulous expectation of God who just might, at some unknown time, make examination of their efforts and credit them as abit player, perhaps even transferring them into Christ.​

How does that sound to you in comparison to the statement of Scripture from Revelation 13 :

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.​

Isn’t it much wiser to trust Scripture rather then “Van’s Biblical presentation”?

My view presents God as all powerful and all knowing, but a God who desires all people to be saved according to His predetermined plan, which is by persuasion and not compulsion.

No, consistently the readers can see Van’s view is inconsistent with an “all powerful and all knowing” God.

Van presents that God does not know exactly who is to be redeemed by the end of human timekeeping, from the beginning of human timekeeping. God is not conformed to human time, rather, He conforms time to His purpose.

Van presents human faith is credited by God in direct conflict with Romans 10:17 which expresses how “faith comes” and is not conjured, is not made presentable, or some other “scheme.”

 

[Van]

[Jhn 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

ἑλκύσῃ
STRONGS G1670 = helkýō, hel-koo'-o; probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively)

Your answer, a charge can be brought by Satan, ignores Romans 8:33. No charge can be brought against those who have been justified by God.

Be that as it may, the next subject provides no problem, "draws" is being used "metaphorically" to mean attract by persuasion.

2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 ​

 

[Van]

The verb tense and sentence construct does not support your view.

The exact same people are "foreknown" and "predestined" and "called" and "justified" and "glorified", so it is either all INDIVIDUAL or it is all CORPORATE. [Utterly false absurdity, those foreknown and predestined refers to the target group of God's redemption plan, those "called, justified, and glorified" refers to individuals chosen during their lifetime when God credited their faith as righteousness.]

I believe that the intent is clearly "individual", but just to examine the consequences of the "Corporate" argument:

• The Roman Catholic Church is correct that God saves His church as a collective entity with all members of the church being swept along by virtue of their membership. It is simply a NEW "nation of Israel" grafted into the Covenant. [Utter nonsense]
  
• There is no individual Justification, so verses that speak of a "personal relationship" are being misinterpreted and must be reexamined as a collective thing. For example, the receipt of the Holy Spirit is a promise for the COLLECTIVE body, not the individual believer. The Holy Spirit guides the Church (through Apostles, Prophets and Teachers) and the "Church" guides the people. [LOL, why not address the actual individual election, rather than the corporate only bogus view]
  
• "Foreknew" is robbed of any real meaning ... God knows everything, so knowing that some undetermined group will be saved is a "so what" revelation. [Please address the actual meaning of foreknew, to use information in the present that was acquired or formulated in the past]
  
• "Predestined" is robbed of any real meaning ... God knew that the Father would send the Son to die; another "so what" revelation that God knows His own plans. [Utter nonsense, predestined means to determine beforehand, such as those placed in Christ will be conformed to the image of His Son]
  
• "Called" is also robbed of any personal reference since "those GOD predestined, GOD also called" and "those GOD called, GOD also justified". So the CHURCH (collectively) is predestined and called and justified. The individuals are not "called" by God. [More utter nonsense, please reread verse 28., these are the individuals that we foreknown as the target group, to be conformed to the image of His Son, that were in the present, called, justified and glorified.]
  
• "Justified" takes a huge hit as God's plan no longer seeks to justify individual people, but rather to collectively justify this predestined entity called THE CHURCH. Individuals are saved by hitching their cart to the CHURCH and getting pulled along to the collective "glorification" that awaits this collective CHURCH. [More utter nonsense, again addressing the corporate only view. What a waste.]

You will now claim that I have misunderstood what you believe. Probably so. However these are the logical conclusions demanded by the assumption that the "Golden Chain" is corporate rater than individual, so you will ultimately need to address these issues to fully exegete the paragraph in Romans 8.

On and on they post nonsense, and ignore both the biblical view, and the questions which demonstrate their unbiblical view is bogus.

 

[Van]

This is laughable!
SNIP
Van presents human faith is credited by God in direct conflict with Romans 10:17 which expresses how “faith comes” and is not conjured, is not made presentable, or some other “scheme.”

Rom 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Now that we have established that faith comes from hearing Christ's words and gospel, we see that once again the verse cited in no way is in "direct conflict" with God crediting (or not) our faith as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5; Romans 4:23-24.

And note folks, the endless and repeated effort to claim an understanding of God being all knowing that conflicts with God making and carrying out plans, such as His redemption plan of those who believe. They deny God desires all people to be saved according to His redemption plan using persuasion, and not compulsion. According the their bogus view, God really only desires a subset of people to be saved when He gave the great commission. Their view is both unbiblical and utter nonsense.

 

[atpollard]

Your answer, a charge can be brought by Satan, ignores Romans 8:33. No charge can be brought against those who have been justified by God.

The book of Job begs to differ. God proclaims Job a righteous man in the beginning and Satan immediate throws up accusations that ultimately prove to be false. No LEGITIMATE charge can be made to stick against God’s people, because the One who judges is the one who removed the guilt.

Do you seriously believe that ANY Christians live completely sinless lives? If all sin (even the saved) then an accusation CAN be made, but if the sin has been covered by the blood, then there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

Be that as it may, the next subject provides no problem, "draws" is being used "metaphorically" to mean attract by persuasion.

2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44
​

​

You have added the word “persuasion” where I believe that it does not belong. If you are not irresistibly attracted, then you are not drawn. The sword that remains in the sheath was not physically drawn and the person that remains at home was not drawn to the concert by the advertising flyer. Draw is a compelling and not an invitation (physical or metaphorical).

 

[atpollard]

On and on they post nonsense, and ignore both the biblical view, and the questions which demonstrate their unbiblical view is bogus.

Untrue.

[Rom 8:1-39 NASB]

• 1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God [did:] sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and [as an offering] for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so,] 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.] 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for [our] adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he [already] sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. 26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for [us] with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to [the will of] God. 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God [is] for us, who [is] against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED." 37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The whole of Romans 8 is about the relationship between God and the individual; there is nothing corporate about it. I urge you to reread it and explore the Greek tense of the pronouns to see if they are individual and specific or collective and hypothetical.

 

[atpollard]

Your answer, a charge can be brought by Satan, ignores Romans 8:33. No charge can be brought against those who have been justified by God.

For the record, that is not what Romans 8:33 says:

[Rom 8:33-34 NASB] 33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

[Rom 8:33-34 NIV] 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

[Rom 8:33-34 NLT] 33 Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one--for God himself has given us right standing with himself. 34 Who then will condemn us? No one--for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God's right hand, pleading for us.

[Rom 8:33-34 KJV] 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth. 34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

[Van]

The book of Job begs to differ. God proclaims Job a righteous man in the beginning and Satan immediate throws up accusations that ultimately prove to be false. No LEGITIMATE charge can be made to stick against God’s people, because the One who judges is the one who removed the guilt.

Do you seriously believe that ANY Christians live completely sinless lives? If all sin (even the saved) then an accusation CAN be made, but if the sin has been covered by the blood, then there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

​

You have added the word “persuasion” where I believe that it does not belong. If you are not irresistibly attracted, then you are not drawn. The sword that remains in the sheath was not physically drawn and the person that remains at home was not drawn to the concert by the advertising flyer. Draw is a compelling and not an invitation (physical or metaphorical).

Please stick to the subject, how God chooses individuals for salvation under the New Covenant per 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and James 2:5. Making reference to other choices of God is non germane.

I have answered the "are God's elect" sinless many times. No need to change to subject again. The very short version is although we do what we consider to be sinful acts, God has justified all our acts, and therefore in His eyes, those justified are sinless.

Scripture tells us God draws with lovingkindness, not with irresistible grace which is just once of Calvinism's bogus additions to the text. Why not address how the word translated "draw" is used metaphorically? Posting "taint so" does not move the ball.

 

[Van]

Untrue.
SNIP
The whole of Romans 8 is about the relationship between God and the individual; there is nothing corporate about it. I urge you to reread it and explore the Greek tense of the pronouns to see if they are individual and specific or collective and hypothetical.

Making unbiblical claims and copy and pasting filler material does not move the ball.
The election of Ephesians 1:4 was corporate, the election of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is individual.
I already pointed Romans 8:28 refers to individuals, why ignore the obvious?

 

[Van]

For the record, that is not what Romans 8:33 says:

[Rom 8:33-34 NASB] 33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

[Rom 8:33-34 NIV] 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

[Rom 8:33-34 NLT] 33 Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one--for God himself has given us right standing with himself. 34 Who then will condemn us? No one--for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God's right hand, pleading for us.

[Rom 8:33-34 KJV] 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth. 34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

For the record, since God is all powerful and has justified the elect, they are not dead in their sins. Therefore when we were dead in our sins, we were not yet elect. Romans 8:33 precludes a period where we are elected for salvation, yet have not been justified. This is not rocket science. The truth is obvious.

 

[agedman]

For the record, since God is all powerful and has justified the elect, they are not dead in their sins. Therefore when we were dead in our sins, we were not yet elect. Romans 8:33 precludes a period where we are elected for salvation, yet have not been justified. This is not rocket science. The truth is obvious.

Again you confuse election with justification.

Election has two basic substantive parts.

1) one does not elect themself, but is chosen. As chosen, there is no obligation for immediate application. For example, the president is called “president elect” until taking oath of office.

2) the election of a believers are not contingent upon the believer, nor the response by the believer. For example, Paul “kicked against the pricks” for untold length of time prior to expressing belief.​

Justification and election are not the same.

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.​

Van, as you posted, “This is not rocket science. The truth is obvious.”

 

[atpollard]

Please stick to the subject, how God chooses individuals for salvation under the New Covenant per 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and James 2:5. Making reference to other choices of God is non germane.

I disagree. Like you I weigh the full testimony of all scripture on an issue, not just a few selected verses. If you seek an exegesis of a single verse, then clearly state so in order that everyone can enter the discussion with the same expectations.

I have answered the "are God's elect" sinless many times. No need to change to subject again. The very short version is although we do what we consider to be sinful acts, God has justified all our acts, and therefore in His eyes, those justified are sinless.

It was not a change of subject, it was an illustration of a point. Even the JUSTIFIED sin and can have a charge made against them, so the verse you quoted cannot mean that it is not physically (spiritually) possible to make a charge against God's people. I continue to assert that the meaning is that the charge will not stand when we face Jesus at the Final Judgement. Paul was asserting that no charge against the ELECT will stick, not that no charge can be made.

This condition is no different for an individual "foreknown" and "predestined" but not yet "called" than it is for an individual who has been "justified" (and still sins) and not yet "glorified".

Scripture tells us God draws with lovingkindness, not with irresistible grace which is just once of Calvinism's bogus additions to the text.

Irresistible grace is an act of Loving Kindness. A drowning man is too weak to climb into the lifeboat, so which of the following is an act of "lovingkindness":

• I redouble my efforts to encourage, urge and entice the man into the boat, promising him even more loving attention and aid if he will only pull himself over the side (resistible grace).
• I reach over and DRAW him into the boat whether he is ready or not (irresistible grace).

Why not address how the word translated "draw" is used metaphorically?

I did. Draw (ἑλκύσῃ) comes from a root meaning "to drag", so even metaphorically it requires the action to be irresistible to actually be THAT action (ἑλκύσῃ). I even presented an example that inviting someone to a concert that does not go to that concert would not be "DRAW" (ἑλκύσῃ). Find a use of the verb "to draw" where the object does not physically/emotionally respond but it was still considered drawing.

1. "draw the curtains" ... are the curtains drawn if they refuse to move?
2. "draw a sword" ... is a sword drawn if it is still stuck in the sheath refusing to move?
3. "the crowd drew Paul to the Magistrate" ... was Paul invited (with the right to decline) or compelled to come?
4. "her eyes drew me towards her" ... is it still drawing if you don't notice her?

In every case, the DRAW must result in the desired action in order to actually BE a draw (ἑλκύσῃ). Thus even God's "lovingkindness" that draws the elect to the Son must be irresistible or it is not (ἑλκύσῃ).

Posting "taint so" does not move the ball.

Actually, nothing seems to be able to move this particular ball. "Taint so" at least has the benefit of an economy of words.

 

[atpollard]

Making unbiblical claims and copy and pasting filler material does not move the ball.
The election of Ephesians 1:4 was corporate, the election of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is individual.
I already pointed Romans 8:28 refers to individuals, why ignore the obvious?

Saying "Tis so" doesn't move the ball, either.

 

[atpollard]

For the record, since God is all powerful and has justified the elect, they are not dead in their sins. Therefore when we were dead in our sins, we were not yet elect. Romans 8:33 precludes a period where we are elected for salvation, yet have not been justified. This is not rocket science. The truth is obvious.

How does this: "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." preclude a period where we are elected for salvation, yet have not been justified.

 

[Van]

Again you confuse election with justification.

Election has two basic substantive parts.

1) one does not elect themself, but is chosen. As chosen, there is no obligation for immediate application. For example, the president is called “president elect” until taking oath of office.

2) the election of a believers are not contingent upon the believer, nor the response by the believer. For example, Paul “kicked against the pricks” for untold length of time prior to expressing belief.​

Justification and election are not the same.

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.​

Van, as you posted, “This is not rocket science. The truth is obvious.”

The fabricator of deflection strikes again!!
Did anyone say we elect ourselves? Nope so deflection
Did anyone say election for salvation is contingent on the believer? Nope, salvation is contingent on God crediting our faith as righteousness. These folks seem to intentionally get everything wrong.
How is election for salvation accomplished? Through sanctification by the Spirit, the Spirit sets us apart in Christ, 2 Thessalonians 2:13
When is justification accomplished? When God places us in Christ and we undergo the washing of regeneration and the circumcision of Christ.

 

[Van]

Even the JUSTIFIED sin and can have a charge made against them, so the verse you quoted cannot mean that it is not physically (spiritually) possible to make a charge against God's people. I continue to assert that the meaning is that the charge will not stand when we face Jesus at the Final Judgement. Paul was asserting that no charge against the ELECT will stick, not that no charge can be made.

LOL No charge can be made against the elect because it is God who justified them.

This condition is no different for an individual "foreknown" and "predestined" but not yet "called" than it is for an individual who has been "justified" (and still sins) and not yet "glorified".

Nonsense, the corporately chosen believers are not individually elect, they have not been placed in Christ and justified.

Irresistible grace is an act of Loving Kindness. A drowning man is too weak to climb into the lifeboat, so which of the following is an act of "lovingkindness":

Irresistible grace is a fiction, not found in scripture., Being drawn by God's lovingkindness is found in scripture.
I did. Draw (ἑλκύσῃ) comes from a root meaning "to drag", so even metaphorically it requires the action to be irresistible come?
[/QUOTE]
Once again we have a word redefined to mean what Calvinism claims. Twaddle,

2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 , ... I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; (Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.)

Calvinism rests on the foundation of redefined words to create fictional support.

 

[Van]

How does this: "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." preclude a period where we are elected for salvation, yet have not been justified.

Asked and answered. Please quote my answer and ask a specific question, see post #93. A charge could be brought against God's elect if there was a period between being placed in Christ and being justified. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through being set apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit.