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Featured Jesus said, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me.” ~ John 12:32

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Scott Downey, Dec 28, 2019.

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  1. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    God Has Allotted to Each a Measure of Faith
    Some very good examples the demonstrate our faith is the gift of God.
    You know what, some will believe it and some wont.
    Because if they admit our faith is a gift, they have to admit to a lot more truths they don't want to admit to.
     
    #61 Scott Downey, Dec 29, 2019
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  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Again, in Ephesians 2:8 faith is not what is being called the gift.

    In general, faith comes from hearing truth. ". . . faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." -- Romans 10:17. And God's word is truth. ". . . thy word is truth." -- John 17:17. Such is natural revelation, ". . . their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." -- Romans 10:18, Psalms 19:4. All faith of every kind. Truth is the reason for faith. One cannot know anything without belief.
     
    #62 37818, Dec 29, 2019
  3. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but it is not natural revelation our faith that comes by hearing God speak.

    For example Jesus tells Peter what about why Peter knew who Jesus was? Although I am certain you are always going to dispute this truth about our faith, basically I am not going to 'beat a dead horse' with you anymore.

    13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”
    14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
    15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
    16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
    17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood (like from a preacher) has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
     
    #63 Scott Downey, Dec 29, 2019
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  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Only two key words in Ephesians 2:8 were in the nominative case. The verb translated "saved." And the noun with its definite article translated "the gift.".
     
    #64 37818, Dec 29, 2019
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    ". . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." -- Romans 10:17-18, ", , , Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. . . ." -- Psalms 19:4.
     
    #65 37818, Dec 29, 2019
  6. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Had to stop you there. Sorry, this is just a bad argument. Of course it can mean men (humans). Why can't it? Because we say all people rather than all humans we really mean only some humans? Sorry, that just doesn't fly.

    I realize there's doctrine of irresistible grace by which this passage is being filtered, but I'm not a big fan of interpreting things to fit. I'd rather let the theology flow from the Text, and if the Text causes problems, maybe we need to refine the theology rather than force fit it.... even if the tradition goes way back.

    The fact is, Jesus said he would draw all to himself. If there is an irresistible grace that is only for the elect, it's not in this passage. John said, "The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world." Like it or not, there is a sense in which everyone is given light and drawn. Paul talked about the grace of God that brings salvation being given to all people.

    This doesn't, in and of itself, refute irresistible grace, but it does tell us there is also a universal grace. We need to just let the passage speak.
     
    #66 Calminian, Dec 29, 2019
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  7. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Your leaving out the entire context though, look at v16 and v20

    16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:
    “Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
    And their words to the ends of the world.”
    19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:
    “I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,
    I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”
    20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:
    “I was found by those who did not seek Me;
    I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”
    21 But to Israel he says:
    “All day long I have stretched out My hands
    To a disobedient and contrary people.”

    Then see what the gospel writer has to say!
    What your quoting as support for your view is the exact opposite.
    It has to do with hardening of the Jews whom God has blinded so that they could not believe.
    So if your honest you will see your folly here.
    Others reading here will see it too.
    Conversely, the phrase to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed, has to do with God being found by those who did not seek for me and those who did not ask for me. Pointing to God changing their hearts not according to their natural will which is to reject God.
    You treat all this as something natural, as if a naturally minded man can receive the things of God.
    By natural revelation the world is condemned, read Romans 1 !!
    As your opposed to John 12's interpretation about these things, you need to change your mind about all of these things.

    John 12
    Who Has Believed Our Report?
    37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
    “Lord, who has believed our report?
    And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
    39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
    40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
    Lest they should see with their eyes,
    Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
    So that I should heal them.”
    41 These things Isaiah said [f]when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.
     
    #67 Scott Downey, Dec 30, 2019
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  8. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    You just added to scripture because it does not say that. Don't you think God is smart enough to say all the elect if that were really the case. Your not only adding to the text by your claim but you also contradict the rest of scripture.
    MB
     
    #68 MB, Dec 30, 2019
  9. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    This is huge Laugh. Salvation is the Gift, not faith. Faith comes by hearing. What do you do with this verse.
    Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    MB
     
    #69 MB, Dec 30, 2019
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  10. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    There is no truth in Calvinism.
    MB
     
    #70 MB, Dec 30, 2019
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Leaving it out? I was not making that part of the argument. Those who refuse the gospel are without excuse by reason God has given everyone faith through natural revelation.
     
    #71 37818, Dec 30, 2019
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I am not a Calvinist. And there are turths upon which Calvinism is based.
     
    #72 37818, Dec 30, 2019
  13. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Actually, God has not given everyone faith. Sinful man is dead in his trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1; Colossian 2:13) and is incapable of appraising spiritual truth while in his sins (1 Corinthians 2:14; 2 Corinthians 2:16). God must unilaterally take action (regeneration/illumination) to make a person capable of believing and exercising faith (Ephesians 2:4-5). I know you reject this but that does not change the fact that this is what Calvinists believe to be scriptural truth.
     
    #73 Reformed, Dec 30, 2019
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  14. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    All the father gives limits all who are drawn by Jesus. All the candy in the box doesn't mean all candy.
     
    #74 1689Dave, Dec 30, 2019
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  15. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe that at all. There is no, how to be saved you either are or aren't according to Calvinism there is no reason to seek Salvation. This is the most important part of Christianity.. They claim to be evangelist yet they do not evangelize. They do not bring in the sheaves. They falsely claim particular election. there is no such thing in scripture nor is there election for gentiles. They deny anyone who believes is saved in fact they claim a natural man cannot believe. They limit the atonement to them selves everyone else is lost according to them. They falsely claim that grace is irresistible again not in scripture.They believe they have to work in order to keep there Salvation. No sir there is nothing in Calvinism that is true.
    MB
     
    #75 MB, Dec 30, 2019
  16. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    How do you know He doesn't give all to Christ? Scripture please?
    MB
     
    #76 MB, Dec 30, 2019
  17. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    So men are not Totally Unable to save themselves?

    ... "That's Pelagianism, Patrick!"
     
    #77 atpollard, Dec 30, 2019
  18. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    [John 10:26-30 NASB] 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [My sheep] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."
     
    #78 atpollard, Dec 30, 2019
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  19. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Repentance was granted to the Gentiles long ago Notice that it's repentance is unto life.

    Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life
    MB
     
    #79 MB, Dec 30, 2019
  20. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Many refute your idea. Why didn't he pray for all, but only those the Father gave to him? Why did he tell the Pharisees he didn't die for them? And that is why they couldn't believe? Many more if interested.............
     
    #80 1689Dave, Dec 30, 2019
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