1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured The Limited Atonement

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Scott Downey, Dec 30, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2019
    Messages:
    4,329
    Likes Received:
    765
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    All atonement mentioned in scripture in the OT, are for Israel and not for any other nation or people.
    Of course certain foreigners could join themselves to the people of the Lord.

    So the atonement is only for the people of God so that their sins are forgiven them.
    v31, When the priest made the atonement, the sins were forgiven them who had sinned.
    So the concept of atonement is to forgive the sins of the sinful transgressor who sinned against God, and it was not open ended to apply to anyone else. It was national and individual to Israel only.

    Leviticus 4
    27 ‘If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally by doing something against any of the commandments of the Lord in anything which ought not to be done, and is guilty, 28 or if his sin which he has committed comes to his knowledge, then he shall bring as his offering a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed. 29 And he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering, and kill the sin offering at the place of the burnt offering. 30 Then the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger, put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and pour all the remaining blood at the base of the altar. 31 He shall remove all its fat, as fat is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offering; and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a sweet aroma to the Lord. So the priest shall make atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

    Jesus is our great high priest who makes atonement (NT word propitiation ) for the sins of the people (of God only)

    And further proof is that those who believe in Christ have their sins forgiven them so that they will not perish, as John 3:16 says.

    There is no unlimited open ended atonement for all sinners, the atonement is only for believers.
    People still go to hell with their sins unforgiven, unatoned for , unpropitiated for. Propitiation means the turning away of wrath from an offended God against sinners who transgressed against Him. And the WRATH of GOD abides on them who do not believe.

    The OT was signs and symbols of Christ, and He is our great high priest, the great shepherd of the sheep, Christ is not the priest of the world. The world has no forgiveness of their sins, no atonement, no propitiation, for to have an atonement means they have the forgiveness of their sins. And Christ told us that if you do not believe in Him, you will die in your sin unforgiven.

    So the priest shall make atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

    No doubt some will object and quote me this, applying the propitiating atonement to the unbelieving world,

    1 John 2:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
    The Test of Knowing Christ
    1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
    The Test of Knowing Him
    3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

    HOWEVER, the unbelieving world has to be joined to the people of the LORD to have their sins atoned for.

    So the atonement is limited.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS Righteousness. Galatians 3:6
     
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    The Atonement was actual, not potential. It accomplished redemption;

    Heb9:
    1 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

    12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

    14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
    Heb10
    14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

    16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

    17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

    18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

    19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I don’t have the energy to get into a protracted discussion, but wanted the reader to be encouraged in studying this important topic.

    It may seem counterintuitive especially to those who rely upon emotionalism, yet God s faithful in both picture and practice.

    The OT atonement was multifaceted.

    More often folks focus upon one aspect of the presentation and neglect reflection upon the whole. In no particular order and an incomplete list includes:

    humbling.
    washing.
    reclothing .
    bloodletting.
    death.
    life.
    garment exchange.
    And more

    The OT scriptures and NT are in agreement in pattern type and in factual application.

    The OP rightly appoints the OT Israel enjoyed the atonement, all in the land were impacted by the day, however, too often folks include ALL Israel in that economy but then limit that atonement to a select few when it comes to the NT.

    Now, this is correct in some aspects but incorrect in other.

    Not all in the OT included in the atonement were indeed redeemed. That is obvious.

    The same principle must also, therefore, apply to the NT.

    The only way to understand and bring consistency to this theme is to consider each facet of the day of atonement in the OT and then make the same application to the NT Scriptures.

    The atonement certainly is limited.

    All but the heretic universalist hold that as truthful.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  5. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2019
    Messages:
    4,329
    Likes Received:
    765
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    More proof a limited atonement is only for the the foreknown elect of God, who will believe in Christ is
    1 Peter 1, for without the shedding of blood and it being applied to the people, there is no forgiveness of their sins.

    1 Peter 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Greeting to the Elect Pilgrims
    1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
    To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
    2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit,
    for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

    If you are elect, then you will be obedient to the message of Christ, and be sprinkled with His blood.

    Christ tells us there is no salvation outside of Him, He is the only way to the Father. So even by what Christ says there, the atonement of His shed blood, His death, is limited to His very own elect

    I have heard preachers and others claim the crucifixion was the atonement, His death removed the enmity between God and all mankind,so that the relationship is now neutral, but NO, the wrath of God remains on them that believe not, as does the enmity.

    And these people with this enmity mentioned here are not in Christ. I have also heard people claim you can be carnally minded and spiritually minded at the same time, so then carnally minded people are saved, but that is false.
    Romans 8:7 was written after the crucifixion,
    Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
     
    #5 Scott Downey, Dec 31, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    yes, as he was one of the Elect of God!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Its particular/penal substitutionary in its application, as God intended a definite salvation to come for and unto His elect in Christ.
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    My point (as was Paul's in Romans) is that Abraham was not an Israelite (a descendant of Jacob; the people to whom the Law was given), yet it was to him the promise was made.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2019
    Messages:
    4,329
    Likes Received:
    765
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    However, they who lived under the OC relationship were not perfected, and none of them inherited the promise. They had to wait for Christ to come and establish the NC in His blood, for without that they could not have eternal life. Because of that when they died, all of them without exception did not go to heaven, they went to a part of Sheol( Hell ), the place of the righteous dead known as Paradise.

    There are 3 allotted places for souls to exist, Heaven, Earth, under the earth Sheol (Hell)
    Christ when HE died descended into the lower parts of the earth (Sheol, Hell, ) where Paradise was at that time.
    Then when He ascended He led the captivity captive, those in Paradise into Heaven with Him.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Abraham did not live under the Old Covenant. His faith was credited as righteousness apart from the Law, apart from Israel, apart from the atoning sacrifices, etc.

    My point is that the Levitical system does not support (much less prove) the doctrine of limited atonement.
     
  11. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Finish the story, for it would need to include:

    The place known as Paradise was established because of the work Christ did prior to the creation.

    The occupants were placed in Paradise not based upon work but upon promise secured by God's appointing.

    Unlike them, when I die, as one also secured by God's appointing, will not go to Paradise but into the presence of my Redeemer.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It does prove definite atonement, penal substitutionary though....
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    They had the Gospel preached unto them though, and were saved in Christ, but just needed to have its fullness of salvation wait until Jesus died for their sins!
     
  14. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This is true, yet the levitical system was presenting in picture form that which was to be the atonement.

    I'm reminded as I write this why some of the oldest surviving European churches had so many pictures on the walls. It gave them presentations and representations because they had no actual Scriptures to read for themselves.

    The Levitical System teaching shouldn't be discarded, but should be used in terms of pictographs of not past but future.

    On another matter, it is my opinion that some stumble on the how rather than the mere acknowledgement of Abraham and the crediting.

    As a result, some conjure up that some innate human ability, yet neglect that Abraham was well established, was well cultured, had no desire to be anything but where and who he was until God spoke to him.

    Redemption is part of the earliest cultural aspects in which we modern folks have little understanding.

    Understanding The Faith of Abraham
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Not really, it does not "prove" but rather gives a picture of that promised that is now fulfilled.

    One must be careful about the "penal substitution" aspects as it relates to wrath thinking.

    There was no wrath expressed in picture by the atonement sacrifices.

    And note also, reader, that there was more than one sacrifice on the atonement day. Each had specific meaning in the picture of what Christ accomplished.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,331
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Job 19:25-27 For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me!
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, it does not prove definite atonement. It really does not prove the case either way.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2019
    Messages:
    4,329
    Likes Received:
    765
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    HOWEVER the blood sacrificial system was established at the very beginning, Gen 3:21, and all covenants are established with the shedding of blood. Abraham was told by God to offer sacrifices to establish His covenant with Abraham. The righteousness by Faith came before the LAW was given and by faith Abraham was told to offer animal sacrifices to God, for without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness, that transcends all covenants.And Abraham said, “My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering.” So the two of them went together.

    Genesis 22

    6 So Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife, and the two of them went together. 7 But Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, “My father!”
    And he said, “Here I am, my son.”
    Then he said, “Look, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?”
    8 And Abraham said, “My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering.” So the two of them went together.

    Genesis 15 New King James Version (NKJV)
    God’s Covenant with Abram
    15 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”
    2 But Abram said, “Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 Then Abram said, “Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!”
    4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” 5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
    6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

    7 Then He said to him, “I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it.”
    8 And he said, “Lord God, how shall I know that I will inherit it?”
    9 So God said to him, “Bring Me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.” 10 Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, down the middle, and placed each piece opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds in two. 11 And when the vultures came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    EXACTLY - .And Abraham said, “My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering.” So the two of them went together.

    And this is outside of the Old Covenant (it is prior to the Covenant).
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2019
    Messages:
    4,329
    Likes Received:
    765
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    The BLOOD Atonement system, shedding of blood for forgiveness of sins and sacrifices came before the Law was given. So what you said earlier is an error, but I dont think see that yet.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...