Do you know how many OT prophecies concerning the coming of Yeshua were literally fulfilled?
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Judaism or Christianity?
- Thread starter NetChaplain
- Start date
Sorry for posting the wrong Scripture location, it's suppose to be Jer 31:31 concerning Israel's new covenant, not Eze.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
(5) Every O. T. prophecy ‘fulfilled in the N. T., even those fulfilled solely in the natural realm, is couched either partly or wholly in figurative language; i. e. an exactly literal fulfillment of such prophecies is nowhere to be found: e. g.
Robert Whitelaw. (n.d.). THE GOSPEL MILLENNIUM and Obedience to Scripture.
I think before any more comments or opinions can be made I feel there are a couple issues needing addressed. First and foremost is the teaching of “The Covenant of Redemption,” because its doctrine is the basis of my understanding Israel’s eschatology, and is the Covenant presumed to be the present. “The covenant of redemption is the eternal agreement within the Godhead in which the Father appointed the Son to become incarnate, suffer, and die as a federal head of mankind to make an atonement for their sin. In return, the Father promised to raise Christ from the dead, glorify him, and give him a people.” (Wikipedia®)
If this doctrine is true (which is my belief for a while) then the new covenant (as mentioned earlier) of Israel shown in Jer 31:31 cannot be the proposed Covenant here mentioned in Christ’s Blood which presently and eternally exists in Christianity. The other difficulty (IMO) is that if “all Israel” and “the Israel of God” refer to all who are reborn in Christ among the Jews and Gentiles, there would need to be an explanation of the dominant usage of Jewish language presented with these terms in Scripture.
Myself, I’ve been researching the doctrine of Israel’s end times in God’s plans for a few decades now, and I’m more conclusive than not in believing that the Everlasting Covenant (Heb 13:20) is between God and His Son and not God and man. There is still much information to take in for me to be completely decided on this issue and in the meantime I will only be trying to reply to directly-related comments to these concepts; which again, have no reflection on the essential doctrines of salvation.
If this doctrine is true (which is my belief for a while) then the new covenant (as mentioned earlier) of Israel shown in Jer 31:31 cannot be the proposed Covenant here mentioned in Christ’s Blood which presently and eternally exists in Christianity. The other difficulty (IMO) is that if “all Israel” and “the Israel of God” refer to all who are reborn in Christ among the Jews and Gentiles, there would need to be an explanation of the dominant usage of Jewish language presented with these terms in Scripture.
Myself, I’ve been researching the doctrine of Israel’s end times in God’s plans for a few decades now, and I’m more conclusive than not in believing that the Everlasting Covenant (Heb 13:20) is between God and His Son and not God and man. There is still much information to take in for me to be completely decided on this issue and in the meantime I will only be trying to reply to directly-related comments to these concepts; which again, have no reflection on the essential doctrines of salvation.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
If I remember Old Testament “Covenants” they were always conditional. For instance, God would say, “If you keep My commandments.... then I will make an eternal covenant with you and your descendents...” or words to that effect.
I noticed you won’t answer my question. I’ll ask one more time, third time now.
Concerning the Jews that are saved when the veil is lifted, are they saved by faith in Jesus (like the Christians) or they saved by being the “people of God”.
Peace to you
If you could, I need to know for certain your meaning of "veil lifted." I think I might know what you mean but want to be sure so I have some to go on.
To our resting in Him!
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I thought you used that phrase.
The way I see it, Paul is clear in Romans that, in general but not in all cases, God has placed a “veil” over the eyes of Jews concerning Jesus as their Messiah. The reject Him primarily because of the passage in the OT that says “cursed is the man that hangs on the tree.” The cross is considered to be a tree. It seems impossible their Messiah was cursed of God. It is a stumbling block.
This blindness has caused the gospel to go to non-Jews (gentiles) among whom God has chosen a people for salvation. When the “fullness of the gentiles“ occurs (all gentiles chosen come to salvation) the veil is lifted and those Jews chosen for salvation (hopefully all) will accept Jesus as their Savior. In that way, “all Israel will be saved”, that is the “Israel of God” made up of both Jews and gentiles that are children of the promise.
Both groups are bound together by the cross of Jesus and through the power of Holy Spirit, they have become one new man, united in Christ.
There is no separate future for national Israel. They have broken the conditional covenant with God long ago. The only hope for a relationship with God is through faith in Christ.
What you have stated gives the impression that you believe there is a separate way of salvation for Jews. I believe you even referred to it as a “lesser” relationship with God.
I find that kind of thinking troubling on many levels.
peace to tou
I probable have posted that in an author's article but can't recall where, but it is true though, the Jews who have not accepted the Lord Jesus retain a veil between their fellowship with God (2Co 3:15). Through God's promises to Abraham He keeps bringing Israel (believing Jews in Him) back to obedience, but the place in the sense of fellowship with Israel and God was not until Christ (vv 13, 14, 16). Moses was the sole human at that time who had fellowship with God, marked by being unveiled (denoting fellowship), thus since Christ, only Christian Jews have God's fellowship, but the other Jews who believe in God (Jn 14:1) will not progress beyond just union with Him until they see Him during the Millennium.
It has always been that only the Jews who have believed in God were in forgiveness - Num 15 - (which always denotes union with Him), and I believe for them and their faith God continues to work with them. This faith of the Hebrews and Jews has never been among the majority of mankind (and never will be), which faith I believe places them in permanent union with God, and fellowship is to be restored when the remaining believing Jews in God see Him. The reason why their fellowship could be different than those of the Christian's is due to faith in Christ before seeing Him, which to me is why I see it as a lessor "blessing" (Jn 20:29).
To us resting Above!
The abrahamic covenant was not conditional
Some useful information I found on this subject can be viewed searching “Redemption Planned” by
Don Kistler, and I like the OT passage he includes that I believe is directly related: Zech 6:13.
Redemption Planned by Don Kistler
Don Kistler, and I like the OT passage he includes that I believe is directly related: Zech 6:13.
Redemption Planned by Don Kistler
I think that the scriptures teach to us that God will still be dealing with national Israel in end times, and that they shall become part of spiritual Israel as a whole when Jesus returns, and those still living will indeed say"blessed is he who come sin name of the Lord".But any jew saved until that time must come thru the NC, same as Gentiles do!
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Go into the land that I will show you and I will make you a great nation.
That is conditional. Do what I say “go....” and I will......”make....”
When God tells Isaac that He will honor His oath with Abraham, He says it’s because Abraham obeyed His commandments. (Genesis 26-27)
peace to you
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Particular
Well-Known Member
You need to read Genesis 15 when God established his unconditional covenant with Abram.
Genesis 15:5-8,12-15,17-21 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness. And he said to him, “I am the Lord who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess.” But he said, “O Lord God, how am I to know that I shall possess it?”
As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell on Abram. And behold, dreadful and great darkness fell upon him. Then the Lord said to Abram, “Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, and they will be afflicted for four hundred years. But I will bring judgment on the nation that they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions. As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age.
When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces. On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites.”
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Right. And everything God promised Abraham here has already occurred.
If you read God’s statement to Isaac in Gen 26 or so, you see God specifically states He will honor His oath to Abraham was because Abraham had been obedient and followed His commandments and laws. The honoring if the oath was conditioned on Abraham being obedient to His commandments, so says God.
peace to you
Particular
Well-Known Member
There was no condition. God gave Abram the faith to do what Abram did.
God chose Abram and made a covenant with him so that God could bring his Promised One to redeem his chosen people.
To claim the Abrahamic Covenant is conditional is to misunderstand scripture.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Gen 26:2 I will honor the oath I swear to your Father Abraham....(5) because Abraham obey my commandments and kept my laws.
The promises of God were conditional on obedience.
peace to you
Particular
Well-Known Member
The actual covenant.
You are ignoring Genesis 15 and trying to replace it with one verse from Genesis 26, which is God speaking to Isaac. It's not even the Abrahamic Covenant. You are being deceitful with God's word in order to make a claim that is not accurate.
Genesis 15:5-8,12-15,17-21 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness. And he said to him, “I am the Lord who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess.” But he said, “O Lord God, how am I to know that I shall possess it?”
As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell on Abram. And behold, dreadful and great darkness fell upon him. Then the Lord said to Abram, “Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, and they will be afflicted for four hundred years. But I will bring judgment on the nation that they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions. As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age.
When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces. On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites.”
Genesis 26:1-5 Now there was a famine in the land, besides the former famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went to Gerar to Abimelech king of the Philistines. And the Lord appeared to him and said, “Do not go down to Egypt; dwell in the land of which I shall tell you. Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you and will bless you, for to you and to your offspring I will give all these lands, and I will establish the oath that I swore to Abraham your father. I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and will give to your offspring all these lands. And in your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.”
Sorry that is not a condition. In fact the Lord takes credit for bring Abraham out of Ur:
Gen 15:7 And he said to him, “I am the LORD who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess.”
When you look at Genesis 15:7-21 you see the promise made in a way that is strictly one sided. It was only God who passed between the pieces.