Ex-Calvinism (Why I am no longer a Calvinist)

[JonC]

I believe it is important for one side to listen to what the other side has to say. Sometimes one side realizes that they misunderstood something. Other times there is a legitimate issue.

Given another discussion I thought it would be interesting to explore the reasons people have left one theology (not necessarily why they have adopted another, but why they found a position they held to be wrong).

In that spirit, for those who have been Calvinists and have abandoned that theological position, what led you to leaving the theology? We can also discuss additional issues arising from the reason you left.

 

[JonC]

My reason for abandoning the theology is simple.

Years ago I preached a sermon on how God poured out His wrath on Christ instead of us. At the time, I thought it one of my better sermons. But I awoke with the conviction that I had preached my theology and not God’s Word. This conviction led me to an evaluation of my view on that issue.

The problem is that that issue was closely tied to the judicial philosophy presupposed by Calvinism. This is something I had never questioned before. I studied but could not find a suitable answer for the presupposition. I even brought it to this board, and while many were more than willing to defend Calvinism no one was actually able or willing to address the presupposition.

This one unexplained presupposition was foundational to Calvinism (without it Calvinism crumbled).

@rsr touched on this issue when he referenced Institutes, Book 2, Chapter 16, Section 8. Calvin insisted that what Christ experienced was divine “vengeance”. The judicial philosophy applied to divine justice in Calvinism is retributive justice, but I am not sure that this is appropriate (and even if it is, I am still not convinced it yields the conclusion Calvinism holds).

For me this is a major issue/ barrier to Calvinism because I believe that the more important a doctrine is the more biblical evidence needs to be present in terms of evidence stated in the actual text rather than derived from it.

 

[canadyjd]

I believe the Divine wrath of God being poured out on Jesus at the crucifixion is foreshadowed in the sacrificial system found in the OT.

The sacrificial lamb was brought to the priest, the male head of the family placed his hand on its head, symbolically transferring the guilt of accidental sins to the animal, the animal was slain demonstrating the wrath of God being appeased for one year.

Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. A perfect sacrifice that covers all sin, intentional or accidental.

I don’t know a whole lot about Calvin, but the wrath of God being poured out on Jesus at the crucifixion is supported by scripture.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

I believe the Divine wrath of God being poured out on Jesus at the crucifixion is foreshadowed in the sacrificial system found in the OT.

The sacrificial lamb was brought to the priest, the male head of the family placed his hand on its head, symbolically transferring the guilt of accidental sins to the animal, the animal was slain demonstrating the wrath of God being appeased for one year.

Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. A perfect sacrifice that covers all sin, intentional or accidental.

I don’t know a whole lot about Calvin, but the wrath of God being poured out on Jesus at the crucifixion is supported by scripture.

peace to you

So you left Calvinism because you think that they depart from the OT sacrifice system?

 

[Reformed1689]

@rsr touched on this issue when he referenced Institutes, Book 2, Chapter 16, Section 8. Calvin insisted that what Christ experienced was divine “vengeance”. The judicial philosophy applied to divine justice in Calvinism is retributive justice, but I am not sure that this is appropriate (and even if it is, I am still not convinced it yields the conclusion Calvinism holds).

Interesting, can you give the quote from that section? Either I have a different ICR or I am completely missing something here.

 

[JonC]

Interesting, can you give the quote from that section? Either I have a different ICR or I am completely missing something here.

"Nothing had been done if Christ had only endured corporeal death. In order to interpose between us and God's anger, and satisfy his righteous judgment, it was necessary that he should feel the weight of divine vengeance."

 

[Reformed1689]

"Nothing had been done if Christ had only endured corporeal death. In order to interpose between us and God's anger, and satisfy his righteous judgment, it was necessary that he should feel the weight of divine vengeance."

Ah, that is in section 10, not 8.

 

[JonC]

Ah, that is in section 10, not 8.

Sorry, my bad.

I am using a kindle edition and it is not the friendliest thing. Over the past few years I've gravitated to digital media (old dogs can learn new tricks - bit they are never as good at the tricks as the new dogs). It has its advantages but also disadvantages. Plus digital books smell like coffee and sunflower seeds, not like paper books.

This is what I was using:

Calvin, John. Institutes of the Christian Religion. Signalman Publishing. Kindle Edition.

In the future I'll include the kindle location for those using this edition.

 

[Yeshua1]

My reason for abandoning the theology is simple.

Years ago I preached a sermon on how God poured out His wrath on Christ instead of us. At the time, I thought it one of my better sermons. But I awoke with the conviction that I had preached my theology and not God’s Word. This conviction led me to an evaluation of my view on that issue.

The problem is that that issue was closely tied to the judicial philosophy presupposed by Calvinism. This is something I had never questioned before. I studied but could not find a suitable answer for the presupposition. I even brought it to this board, and while many were more than willing to defend Calvinism no one was actually able or willing to address the presupposition.

This one unexplained presupposition was foundational to Calvinism (without it Calvinism crumbled).

@rsr touched on this issue when he referenced Institutes, Book 2, Chapter 16, Section 8. Calvin insisted that what Christ experienced was divine “vengeance”. The judicial philosophy applied to divine justice in Calvinism is retributive justice, but I am not sure that this is appropriate (and even if it is, I am still not convinced it yields the conclusion Calvinism holds).

For me this is a major issue/ barrier to Calvinism because I believe that the more important a doctrine is the more biblical evidence needs to be present in terms of evidence stated in the actual text rather than derived from it.

The context of the Cross of Christ is Isaiah 53, the Suffering Servant of Yahweh, and the sacrificial system and how the Apostles and Jesus viewed His atonement drives one to accept the classic Calvinist view. One does not get there by reading a philosopher, but sacred scriptures!

 

[JonC]

The context of the Cross of Christ is Isaiah 53, the Suffering Servant of Yahweh, and the sacrificial system and how the Apostles and Jesus viewed His atonement drives one to accept the classic Calvinist view. One does not get there by reading a philosopher, but sacred scriptures!

Do you believe that only those Father elects will believe in Christ?

If so then how is election not the fundamental criteria for salvation?

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you believe that only those Father elects will believe in Christ?

If so then how is election not the fundamental criteria for salvation?

what scripture says that its anything else?

 

[JonC]

what scripture says that its anything else?

I will leave your interpretation up to you.

For me, I do believe that salvation is completely Christ-centered. I had not considered this argument before @George Antonios made it, but he is correct and this is another reason I have not to be a Calvinist.

 

[Yeshua1]

I will leave your interpretation up to you.

For me, I do believe that salvation is completely Christ-centered. I had not considered this argument before @George Antonios made it, but he is correct and this is another reason I have not to be a Calvinist.

I doubt that ANY Calvinist would state that salvation is not found in the person and work of Jesus Christ on our behalf!

 

[canadyjd]

So you left Calvinism because you think that they depart from the OT sacrifice system?

No. I didn’t say that at all.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

No. I didn’t say that at all.

peace to you

Sorry.... Why did you respond? I don't see the reason you rejected Calvinism but at the same time believe you are not a Calvinistic troll advocating an agenda.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I believe it is important for one side to listen to what the other side has to say. Sometimes one side realizes that they misunderstood something. Other times there is a legitimate issue.

Given another discussion I thought it would be interesting to explore the reasons people have left one theology (not necessarily why they have adopted another, but why they found a position they held to be wrong).

In that spirit, for those who have been Calvinists and have abandoned that theological position, what led you to leaving the theology? We can also discuss additional issues arising from the reason you left.

By Calvin do you mean Systematic Theology?

 

[canadyjd]

Sorry.... Why did you respond? I don't see the reason you rejected Calvinism but at the same time believe you are not a Calvinistic troll advocating an agenda.

I didn’t say I rejected Calvinism. I said I don’t know much about him.

You made a statement about the wrath of God being poured out on Jesus at the crucifixion, saying you couldn’t find scripture support for it. I told you where I found it.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

I didn’t say I rejected Calvinism. I said I don’t know much about him.

You made a statement about the wrath of God being poured out on Jesus at the crucifixion, saying you couldn’t find scripture support for it. I told you where I found it.

peace to you

Sorry, I thought you were addressing something else.

I believe the OT was foreshadowing deliverance from the law of sin and death.

 

[Iconoclast]

Do you remember ever coming across a person who says they are an ex Christian?exchristian? And as your question them you realize immediately that well they didn't quite get it it didn't quite understand the message correctly or they wouldn't have rejected it? It's sorta like that for many people. As you question them you find out they didn't quite understand the trinity they didn't quite understand Grace they didn't quite understand the concept of the new birth so you have to ask yourself the question will they ever really a Christian to begin with. They took a a look at Christianity they are religious for a while and then they moved on to something else because they did it in their own strength

 

[JonC]

Do you remember ever coming across a person who says they are an ex Christian?exchristian? And as your question them you realize immediately that well they didn't quite get it it didn't quite understand the message correctly or they wouldn't have rejected it? It's sorta like that for many people. As you question them you find out they didn't quite understand the trinity they didn't quite understand Grace they didn't quite understand the concept of the new birth so you have to ask yourself the question will they ever really a Christian to begin with. They took a a look at Christianity they are religious for a while and then they moved on to something else because they did it in their own strength

Yes. And I can point out these things to those people instead of saying I have this feeling.

Have you ever considered that after all these years you have not been able to provide even one thing about Calvinism I misunderstood, much less left Calvinism over? In our conversations you actually have reaffirmed I understood while I disagreed with Calvinism.

My basic reason for leaving Calvinism is that Calvinism claims divine justice needed to be satisfied by punishing sin.

If you think this a misunderstanding on my part then perhaps it is you who do not understand Calvinism (you hold a view without understanding what you hold).