Aspects of the Atonement

[Reformed]

In the thread "Why I became a calvinist" some posts were made about the Atonement. Discussing Calvinism and the Atonement in one thread is a daunting task. I think atonement issues deserve their own thread. So, here we are.

@agedman made an interesting post in the other thread. He wrote:

"The penal aspects are one portion of the substitution theories in which the Scriptures display the work of redemption.

Imo, no single theory stands as complete, for salvation required aspects of redemption to include large expressions of victory, satisfaction, substitution, ransom (I flatly reject the concept f the devil or God being owed a debt, but endorse the ability to redeem)...

If the wrath of God was the only aspect one considers, then (imo) the conformity to Scriptures is limited.

I also reject that the Atonement includes God owing a debt. He owes a debt to who? God is the One who cursed creation upon Adam's act of disobedience. He was under no obligation to do so other than to His own word (Genesis 2:17; 3:17-19). He did not need to consult with any other being or receive permission in order to impose the harsh sentence of death once Adam sinned. In the same manner, Jesus had the authority to lay down His life and take it up again (John 10:17-18). Other than the agreement that exists between all three persons in the Trinity, Jesus was not under obligation to Creation or any created being.

There is also a redemptive aspect of the Atonement; not just for mankind but all of Creation. Consider the words of Paul:

Romans 8:18-25 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

Ever since God cursed creation it has been yearning for its redemption and restoration. This has been already decreed from eternity and the acts that secured Creation's redemption and restoration occurred on the Cross and at the empty tomb. We see the "sons of God" today as souls are added to the Kingdom. As Paul wrote, both we, the sons of God and Creation, "with perseverance we wait eagerly" for return of the Lord, the final judgment, and the ushering in of the eternal state.

 

[Yeshua1]

In the thread "Why I became a calvinist" some posts were made about the Atonement. Discussing Calvinism and the Atonement in one thread is a daunting task. I think atonement issues deserve their own thread. So, here we are.

@agedman made an interesting post in the other thread. He wrote:



I also reject that the Atonement includes God owing a debt. He owes a debt to who? God is the One who cursed creation upon Adam's act of disobedience. He was under no obligation to do so other than to His own word (Genesis 2:17; 3:17-19). He did not need to consult with any other being or receive permission in order to impose the harsh sentence of death once Adam sinned. In the same manner, Jesus had the authority to lay down His life and take it up again (John 10:17-18). Other than the agreement that exists between all three persons in the Trinity, Jesus was not under obligation to Creation or any created being.

There is also a redemptive aspect of the Atonement; not just for mankind but all of Creation. Consider the words of Paul:

Romans 8:18-25 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

Ever since God cursed creation it has been yearning for its redemption and restoration. This has been already decreed from eternity and the acts that secured Creation's redemption and restoration occurred on the Cross and at the empty tomb. We see the "sons of God" today as souls are added to the Kingdom. As Paul wrote, both we, the sons of God and Creation, "with perseverance we wait eagerly" for return of the Lord, the final judgment, and the ushering in of the eternal state.

God does not owe any one a sin debt, be we do to Him!

 

[37818]

John Owen wrote a near exhaustive thesis against the idea of any kind of arguments for a general redemption in his book "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ."

In his, To The Reader, John posed the following retorical complex question: "To what purpose serves the general ransom, but only to assert that Almighty God would have the precious blood of his dear Son poured out for innumerable souls whom he will not have to share in any drop thereof, and so, in respect of them, to be spilt in vain, or else to be shed for them only that they might be the deeper damned?"

Two references come to mind, Romans 8:34 and Romans 14:9-11.

Romans 8:34, ". . . Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. . . ."

Romans 14:9, ". . . For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. . . ."

My question, is only those who are the saved elect that will bow their knee to Christ as Lord?

 

[Reformed]

My question, is only those who are the saved elect that will bow their knee to Christ as Lord?

Every person who has ever lived will bow the knee and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Philippians 2:9-11 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

All people who ever lived will bow the knee because of who Jesus is: “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” (Revelation 19:16). Those who love the Son (and are loved by Him) will bow in worship. They will feel the gentle caress of their King as He wipes away their tears and they will hear His gentle and kind voice when he says, "Enter into the joy of your master." (Matthew 25:21).

Those who are counted as enemies of their King will also bow down. They will not do so out love or even fealty but under compulsion. Of these scripture says, even while they are living, that the wrath of God abides on them (Romans 1:18). Instead of the joy of their master, these will know the terror of His judgment (Hebrews 10:27).

I like the notes in the NET Bible on the Philippians passage:

"The beings in heaven that Paul referred to evidently are believers who have died and whose spirits have gone into the Lord’s presence. Those on earth are people still alive on the earth. Those under the earth are unbelievers awaiting resurrection. Hades (the same as Sheol, the Old Testament term) is the place where the spirits of the unbelieving dead go until God resurrects them and judges them. The ancients thought of Sheol or Hades as being under the surface of the earth, probably because that is where their bodies went in burial. All angelic beings will acknowledge Jesus’ lordship too (1 Cor. 15:27)."

 

[37818]

Every person who has ever lived will bow the knee and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

That is what I believe and so on that account I also must believe Christ's propitiation being for the whole world is not merely for His elect whom He secures by it. Romans 14:9-11; 1 John 2:2; Romans 3:23-26; Romans 8:34. But that Christ might reconcil His elect out of this world, that is why, 2 Corinthians 5:19. And so the lost being further damned by it are without excuse for their rejection of God's love, John 3:16.

 

[Reformed]

I also must believe Christ's propitiation being for the whole world is not merely for His elect whom He secures by it.

The reason I do not share your view about the Atonement is it makes Christ's death a futile act for those who are not elect. There are positive passages in the New Testament that Christ died for His sheep and only His sheep (c.f. John 10:11-16).

John 10:11-16 11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

And so the lost being further damned by it are without excuse for their rejection of God's love, John 3:16.

Scripture never states this. What it does state is:

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

In the above passage, it is not Christ as a propitiation for all people that ever lived that the reprobate considers being foolishness, it is the word of the cross, the Gospel (c.f. 1 Corinthians 2:14).

2 Corinthians 2:15-16 15 For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; 16 to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life. And who is adequate for these things?

The Elect, Christ's sheep, having been redeemed from the penalty of sin, are a sweet aroma to those who are also being saved but a smell of death to the reprobate. There is no need for additional condemnation other than what scripture pronounces.

John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Yeshua1]

The reason I do not share your view about the Atonement is it makes Christ's death a futile act for those who are not elect. There are positive passages in the New Testament that Christ died for His sheep and only His sheep (c.f. John 10:11-16).

John 10:11-16 11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.



Scripture never states this. What it does state is:

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

In the above passage, it is not Christ as a propitiation for all people that ever lived that the reprobate considers being foolishness, it is the word of the cross, the Gospel (c.f. 1 Corinthians 2:14).

2 Corinthians 2:15-16 15 For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; 16 to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life. And who is adequate for these things?

The Elect, Christ's sheep, having been redeemed from the penalty of sin, are a sweet aroma to those who are also being saved but a smell of death to the reprobate. There is no need for additional condemnation other than what scripture pronounces.

John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Owen for sure claimed a definite/particular atonement view of the Cross of Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

John Owen wrote a near exhaustive thesis against the idea of any kind of arguments for a general redemption in his book "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ."

In his, To The Reader, John posed the following retorical complex question: "To what purpose serves the general ransom, but only to assert that Almighty God would have the precious blood of his dear Son poured out for innumerable souls whom he will not have to share in any drop thereof, and so, in respect of them, to be spilt in vain, or else to be shed for them only that they might be the deeper damned?"

Two references come to mind, Romans 8:34 and Romans 14:9-11.

Romans 8:34, ". . . Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. . . ."

Romans 14:9, ". . . For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. . . ."

My question, is only those who are the saved elect that will bow their knee to Christ as Lord?

The scriptures teach that God intended the Cross of Christ to be applied towards those whom He intended the blood to purchase back and ransom back, the Elect of God in Christ.

 

[JonC]

The reason I do not share your view about the Atonement is it makes Christ's death a futile act for those who are not elect. There are positive passages in the New Testament that Christ died for His sheep and only His sheep (c.f. John 10:11-16).

John 10:11-16 11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.



Scripture never states this. What it does state is:

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

In the above passage, it is not Christ as a propitiation for all people that ever lived that the reprobate considers being foolishness, it is the word of the cross, the Gospel (c.f. 1 Corinthians 2:14).

2 Corinthians 2:15-16 15 For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; 16 to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life. And who is adequate for these things?

The Elect, Christ's sheep, having been redeemed from the penalty of sin, are a sweet aroma to those who are also being saved but a smell of death to the reprobate. There is no need for additional condemnation other than what scripture pronounces.

John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This is interesting because the reason I do not share your view is it does not necessitate Christ's death at all (instead it necessitates a type of spiritual separation or punishment instead of people experiencing the same with Christ's death a mere means to a different end) .

 

[Reformed]

This is interesting because the reason I do not share your view is it does not necessitate Christ's death at all (instead it necessitates a type of spiritual separation or punishment instead of people experiencing the same with Christ's death a mere means to a different end) .

How do you come to the conclusion scripturally? Jesus laid down His life for His sheep. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins (Hebrews 9:22).

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[JonC]

How do you come to the conclusion scripturally? Jesus laid down His life for His sheep. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins (Hebrews 9:22).

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Why did Christ have to die?

Why is the shedding of blood necessary for the forgiveness of sins?

 

[Reformed]

Why did Christ have to die?

Why is the shedding of blood necessary for the forgiveness of sins?

Answer my question first.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Yeshua1]

Why did Christ have to die?

Why is the shedding of blood necessary for the forgiveness of sins?

The soul that sins must die, and life is in the blood, and we have a sin obligation owed God for breaking His law!

 

[JonC]

How do you come to the conclusion scripturally? Jesus laid down His life for His sheep. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins (Hebrews 9:22).

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Sure,

I do not come to my conclusion that your view does not necessitate Christ's death at all (but instead necessitates a type of spiritual separation or punishment with which Christ was punished instead of us being punished) via Scripture. In fact, I not only believe it is absent from Scripture but stands opposed to any biblical understanding of the Atonement. Instead I believe that the wages of sin are death and that Jesus submitted himself to be human, under the curse, and subject to the law and bondage of sin and death (Jesus had to die to be man, to represent humanity, to be the "second Adam"; and Jesus had to be sinless to be justified, to be vindicated by God raising Him from the dead).

Now, why do you believe that Christ had to die?

Why do you believe the shedding of blood is necessary for the forgiveness of sins?

 

[Yeshua1]

Sure,

I do not come to my conclusion that your view does not necessitate Christ's death at all (but instead necessitates a type of spiritual separation or punishment with which Christ was punished instead of us being punished) via Scripture. In fact, I not only believe it is absent from Scripture but stands opposed to any biblical understanding of the Atonement. Instead I believe that the wages of sin are death and that Jesus submitted himself to be human, under the curse, and subject to the law and bondage of sin and death (Jesus had to die to be man, to represent humanity, to be the "second Adam"; and Jesus had to be sinless to be justified, to be vindicated by God raising Him from the dead).

Now, why do you believe that Christ had to die?

Why do you believe the shedding of blood is necessary for the forgiveness of sins?

Did Jesus have to die in my stead, taking my judgement and wrath due me as a sinner?

 

[JonC]

The soul that sins must die, and life is in the blood, and we have a sin obligation owed God for breaking His law!

OK. The soul that sins must die.

That does not answer my question.

 

[JonC]

Did Jesus have to die in my stead, taking my judgement and wrath due me as a sinner?

Do you believe you will physically die? If not, then perhaps. If so, then no - whatever Jesus experienced in your stead was not death (otherwise Jesus' death was a worthless failure).

 

[Yeshua1]

OK. The soul that sins must die.

That does not answer my question.

Jesus had to die on the Cross, ands shed His blood, only way atonement couyld have been made!

 

[JonC]

Jesus had to die on the Cross, ands shed His blood, only way atonement couyld have been made!

Why?

 

[agedman]

If one lumps the aspects together, such may lead to conclusion(s) that would then drive the need to conform the Scriptures.

If one separates the aspects (blood shed, trials, crucifixion, removal, burial, resurrection...) then each may bee seen in the presentation of Scriptures bringing a conclusion to redemption of the saved and a confirmation of the lost.

There is not really a one fits all presentation, but each has its place with the exception of a ransom thinking in which some debt was owed that had to be paid.

If a debt is paid, then there is obligation, real or implied. God has no obligation to redeem anyone. The Devil had no obligation to accept payment.