My Stance and Does God Want Everyone Saved

Lamentations 3 [NLT]
1 I am the one who has seen the afflictions
that come from the rod of the LORD’s anger.
2 He has led me into darkness,
shutting out all light.
3 He has turned his hand against me
again and again, all day long.

4 He has made my skin and flesh grow old.
He has broken my bones.
5 He has besieged and surrounded me
with anguish and distress.
6 He has buried me in a dark place,
like those long dead.

7 He has walled me in, and I cannot escape.
He has bound me in heavy chains.
8 And though I cry and shout,
he has shut out my prayers.
9 He has blocked my way with a high stone wall;
he has made my road crooked.

10 He has hidden like a bear or a lion,
waiting to attack me.
11 He has dragged me off the path and torn me in pieces,
leaving me helpless and devastated.
12 He has drawn his bow
and made me the target for his arrows.

13 He shot his arrows
deep into my heart.
14 My own people laugh at me.
All day long they sing their mocking songs.
15 He has filled me with bitterness
and given me a bitter cup of sorrow to drink.

16 He has made me chew on gravel.
He has rolled me in the dust.
17 Peace has been stripped away,
and I have forgotten what prosperity is.
18 I cry out, “My splendor is gone!
Everything I had hoped for from the LORD is lost!”

19 The thought of my suffering and homelessness
is bitter beyond words.[fn]
20 I will never forget this awful time,
as I grieve over my loss.
21 Yet I still dare to hope
when I remember this:

22 The faithful love of the LORD never ends![fn]
His mercies never cease.
23 Great is his faithfulness;
his mercies begin afresh each morning.
24 I say to myself, “The LORD is my inheritance;
therefore, I will hope in him!”

25 The LORD is good to those who depend on him,
to those who search for him.
26 So it is good to wait quietly
for salvation from the LORD.
27 And it is good for people to submit at an early age
to the yoke of his discipline:

28 Let them sit alone in silence
beneath the LORD’s demands.
29 Let them lie face down in the dust,
for there may be hope at last.
30 Let them turn the other cheek to those who strike them
and accept the insults of their enemies.

31 For no one is abandoned
by the Lord forever.
32 Though he brings grief, he also shows compassion
because of the greatness of his unfailing love.
33 For he does not enjoy hurting people
or causing them sorrow.

34 If people crush underfoot
all the prisoners of the land,
35 if they deprive others of their rights
in defiance of the Most High,
36 if they twist justice in the courts—
doesn’t the Lord see all these things?

37 Who can command things to happen
without the Lord’s permission?
38 Does not the Most High
send both calamity and good?
39 Then why should we, mere humans, complain
when we are punished for our sins?

40 Instead, let us test and examine our ways.
Let us turn back to the LORD.
41 Let us lift our hearts and hands
to God in heaven and say,
42 “We have sinned and rebelled,
and you have not forgiven us.

43 “You have engulfed us with your anger, chased us down,
and slaughtered us without mercy.
44 You have hidden yourself in a cloud
so our prayers cannot reach you.
45 You have discarded us as refuse and garbage
among the nations.

46 “All our enemies
have spoken out against us.
47 We are filled with fear,
for we are trapped, devastated, and ruined.”
48 Tears stream from my eyes
because of the destruction of my people!

49 My tears flow endlessly;
they will not stop
50 until the LORD looks down
from heaven and sees.
51 My heart is breaking
over the fate of all the women of Jerusalem.

52 My enemies, whom I have never harmed,
hunted me down like a bird.
53 They threw me into a pit
and dropped stones on me.
54 The water rose over my head,
and I cried out, “This is the end!”

55 But I called on your name, LORD,
from deep within the pit.
56 You heard me when I cried, “Listen to my pleading!
Hear my cry for help!”
57 Yes, you came when I called;
you told me, “Do not fear.”

58 Lord, you are my lawyer! Plead my case!
For you have redeemed my life.
59 You have seen the wrong they have done to me, LORD.
Be my judge, and prove me right.
60 You have seen the vengeful plots
my enemies have laid against me.

61 LORD, you have heard the vile names they call me.
You know all about the plans they have made.
62 My enemies whisper and mutter
as they plot against me all day long.
63 Look at them! Whether they sit or stand,
I am the object of their mocking songs.

64 Pay them back, LORD,
for all the evil they have done.
65 Give them hard and stubborn hearts,
and then let your curse fall on them!
66 Chase them down in your anger,
destroying them beneath the LORD’s heavens.

 

In Lamentations 3, God seems to have no problem punishing, but God seems to object when PEOPLE think that it is their job to do GOD’s punishing for Him (or to be opportunistic with the misfortune of another).

 

Yes, he did answer it.... by demonstrating that asking those two questions was reductionist and insufficient. What if he had simply answered "yes" to both....as he easily could have. What would your conclusion have been?
It would prove absolutely nothing.
It would have furthered the conversation not one whit.
Any non-Calvinist could simply say, "Yes to both and God's Sovereign will, which is always accomplished, is to give man a Libertarian free choice in Salvation."
Where then would you have gone?

Nowhere. That's essentially what Van was demonstrating.
he "Over-answered" the question.

 

An honest question on God's responsibility:
If a homeless Alcoholic, raised by an alcoholic, cannot resist getting drunk ... is God the author of his sin or was it his libertine free will choice?

(I can see it three different ways.)

 

And there is where the free choice theology falls apart. His sovereign will cannot be both to have all men saved and also give them free choice absolutely in the way that says they can choose either or without question or distinction. You can't have both ways.

 

God is our creator, and as the result of the Fall, He creates us as sinners, predisposed to sin. But we are able to choose not to sin, but instead seek God! Matthew 23:13

Can a person be addicted to some sinful behavior (drinking in excess, gambling in excess, drugs, etc)? Yes
Will God consider these behaviors sinful? Yes But God will administer perfect justice, so God might administer a more tolerable punishment if repetition was driven in part by compulsion or other factors beyond the control of the sinner. To go further would go beyond a scriptural basis.

God desires all men to be saved, but His means includes persuasion, thus we gain access to His grace by our faith if credited as righteousness by God.

 

I answered it. Please read my posts.

 

It's not a matter of trying to "have it both ways".
God could both genuinely desire that all men freely choose him, but also desire that that choice be one of libertarian freedom.
Granted God could not guarantee that every man choose him, certainly, as he cannot also create married bachelors.
The Libertarian position is that God desires that all men would choose him and truly wants all to be saved, but also wants that to be a free choice.
Unlike in Calvinism God does not decree, of course, that any man be saved. But he does decree that all men be free to make the choice.
That is a perfectly consistent Theology.
A Calvinist schema cannot claim that God truly desires the unsaved otherwise he would simply decree it.
Hence the problem, if one believes that God truly desires ALL men to be saved, and has made sufficient provision for it, then that is inconsistent with TULIP.

 

Except the Bible does not state that God wills each individual to be saved. Not in one place does it say that.

 

I read them, you gave a lot of fluff.

 

This blatantly ignores Scripture that DIRECTLY says otherwise in Romans 3.

 

That's easy ...

1. I want to take more swings at Arminianism, because there are a lot of ways in which it rebels against scripture.

• Swing gently, less we cause a weaker Brother to stumble and end up wishing for a millstone.

2. I believe I have come to understand what Romans 9-11 means in totality after much study. It is in fact one section of scripture based on one thought: the salvation of Israel. I must post my interpretation to be tested.

• All who are in Christ are the true Israel of God ... always been that way (ask an OT prophet).

3. Does the bible disallow synergism, or is monergism the only way in which God works according to the bible?

• Yup.

 

I understand. I prefer the NASB as well. I deliberately chose the least literal translation that I can find to avoid a discussion on the "leaves on the trees" and to allow a view of the "whole forest".

God does punish people in that chapter, so we know that God CAN punish people.

That chapter claims that those punished fully deserve their punishment and have no right to complain about it, so God's punishment is JUST.

There is no explicit or implied forgiveness for all. There is an understanding that "mercy" is part of the character of God, so those that cry out to God for mercy have hope that God may grant it. I did not see any guarantee that God would grant it for everyone that asks, only a more general promise that the "people" (collectively) would not be abandoned by God forever.

It reminded me of those that crossed the Red Sea under the cloud of God ... not many of those individuals lived to enter the promise land, but they ... as a people ... did gain what God had promised (until God sent the Babylonians to drag them as a people away).

I think it risky and disingenuous to the whole chapter to extract a few verses and claim that God hates to punish.

 

Denial and deflection

 

Once again folks, a general reference to Romans 3 which fully supports my view and does not support the Calvinist view. The Calvinist view is once again read into the passage.

 

Really? Fully supports you view when it says none seek after God?