My Stance and Does God Want Everyone Saved

[atpollard]

No.

But for example maybe you sinned today even something minor. Did you ask for forgiveness? This would be in response to his grace. Or does someone else posses you or like a automatic robot then do the asking of forgiveness for you?

We would say YOU asked for forgiveness and at the same time this ACT has GOD absolutely at its source.

For someone so articulate when explaining the beliefs of others, you seem quite parsimonious with words explaining your own belief. Apparently you either do not know how men are saved, or you simply do not wish to share the information. In either case, our ignorance is at least partially your fault since you were invited to enlighten us and declined to do so.

You have not defined "grace" or explained how "unmerited favor" (the traditional definition of 'grace') can command something.
You have not explained how men are saved in a way that I can comprehend.
You simply used it as yet another opportunity to "bite and devour" what you see as error in the faith of another Christian.

 

[Van]

You said that there are no paradoxes, only false teaching.
I responded with “like Pelagianism.” as an example of false teaching.

Do you deny that Pelagianism is a false teaching? If not, then why are you accusing me of “defamation”, “smear”, and “misrepresentation“?

If you are concerned that your beliefs are too close to Pelagianism and that is making you defensive, then you might want to reexamine your beliefs.

As an aside, appealing to “obvious biblical truth” is more effective if you can quote actual biblical scripture to support the claim. Statements made “ex cathedra” tend to carry little weight in Baptist circles.

If it was not for the fact that Calvinists smear opponents with false charges of heresy, your claim might carry weight in Baptist circles.

The "ex cathedra" nonsense once again demonstrates misrepresentation:
All this "God chose individuals for salvation before creation" basis for predestination is obviously bogus.
1 Peter 2:9-10 says we were once not a people. Therefore we were not chosen to be God's people before creation. 1 Peter 2:9-10 says we once had not obtained mercy. Therefore we were not chosen individually to be God's people before creation.

No verse says God foreordains some individuals for eternal blessings from before birth. The opposite is true, God's word precludes individuals from being chosen for eternal blessings from before birth.

No verse says God does not desire all men to be saved with equal desire. But His redemption plan includes using believers as His ambassadors, and allowing people to fully accept the gospel, or reject it totally or in part, Matthew 13:1-23.

 

[Reformed1689]

If it was not for the fact that Calvinists smear opponents with false charges of heresy, your claim might carry weight in Baptist circles.

You can't say Baptist circles. That would assume there is no Calvinism in Baptist Circles. But considering we have the London Confession, the Philadelphia Confession, etc..... it seems you are wrong on that assumption.

No verse says God foreordains some individuals for eternal blessings from before birth. The opposite is true, God's word precludes individuals from being chosen for eternal blessings from before birth.

There are TONS of verses that say that.

 

[atpollard]

All this "God chose individuals for salvation before creation" basis for predestination is obviously bogus.

I have said nothing about predestination on this topic, so your response is a "non sequitur" and completely off topic for "Does God want everyone saved?"

All I have to say on the actual topic is ... "How badly can an Omniscient and Omnipotent Triune Godhead really want something if it does not happen?"

 

[Van]

I have said nothing about predestination on this topic, so your response is a "non sequitur" and completely off topic for "Does God want everyone saved?"

All I have to say on the actual topic is ... "How badly can an Omniscient and Omnipotent Triune Godhead really want something if it does not happen?"

Yet another deflection, another asked and answered question from the Calvinist Play book.
All this "God chose individuals for salvation before creation" basis for predestination is obviously bogus.
1 Peter 2:9-10 says we were once not a people. Therefore we were not chosen to be God's people before creation. 1 Peter 2:9-10 says we once had not obtained mercy. Therefore we were not chosen individually to be God's people before creation.

No verse says God foreordains some individuals for eternal blessings from before birth. The opposite is true, God's word precludes individuals from being chosen for eternal blessings from before birth.

No verse says God does not desire all men to be saved with equal desire. But His redemption plan includes using believers as His ambassadors, and allowing people to fully accept the gospel, or reject it totally or in part, Matthew 13:1-23.

To desire something in accordance with the plan for acquiring it, makes sense. To claim God did not mean He desires all men to be saved is nonsense. God uses persuasion, rather than compulsion. Therefore our repentance brings Him glory.

 

[Van]

You can't say Baptist circles. That would assume there is no Calvinism in Baptist Circles. But considering we have the London Confession, the Philadelphia Confession, etc..... it seems you are wrong on that assumption.
There are TONS of verses that say that.

Note folks, no verse that actually says God foreordains people for eternal blessings was cited. I can say scripture teaches God put invisible pink elephants in orbit around Mars. But since I did not reference a verse, you should give it no credence.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

It occurs to me Romans 1, with its explanation of nature and its evident Creator may well show that God wants all saved in that none are without excuse. God made plain what should be done. Thus, I retract that God denies anyone the knowledge needed for salvation. I made that argument earlier, but it was foolish.

I found a very interesting set of verses in Acts 17:22-34. Specifically I am shocked by verse 26 and 27.

26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,

I'm going to study this in the Greek.

While I'm posting, what is the Calvinistic response to the concept of prevenient Grace? It lies at the heart of the question does God want all saved it appears.

 

[Reformed1689]

While I'm posting, what is the Calvinistic response to the concept of prevenient Grace? It lies at the heart of the question does God want all saved it appears.

Prevenient grace in the Arminian sense is a falsehood. And, again, if God's will was to save every person, he would do that. But since he does not, there is something wrong with your assumption.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Prevenient grace in the Arminian sense is a falsehood. And, again, if God's will was to save every person, he would do that. But since he does not, there is something wrong with your assumption.

Well my assumption is illogical. I admit that. Great minds have thrown themselves at this problem and come up short. Now I must try. The issue is not that I want to be Arminian at this point. Arminians seem to despise God's character as revealed in scripture. I feel more comfortable with you Calvinists now since we agree on God's character as revealed in passages like Romans 9. I just think you guys make a leap of logic to have a reasonable soteriology when scripture seems to clearly indicate a paradox. Something I don't like to be honest, but I'm not God and He does whatever pleases Him.

I have more thinking and research to do.

 

[Reformed1689]

Well my assumption is illogical. I admit that. Great minds have thrown themselves at this problem and come up short. Now I must try. The issue is not that I want to be Arminian at this point. Arminians seem to despise God's character as revealed in scripture. I feel more comfortable with you Calvinists now since we agree on God's character as revealed in passages like Romans 9. I just think you guys make a leap of logic to have a reasonable soteriology when scripture seems to clearly indicate a paradox. Something I don't like to be honest, but I'm not God and He does whatever pleases Him.

I have more thinking and research to do.

What is this seeming paradox?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

What is this seeming paradox?

A paradox of single predestination and God desiring all saved. The classic Lutheran paradox. I don't agree with the rest of their explanation though. Now, I know Reformed posit multiple wills for God to get around this, but I can't remotely see how you get there in scripture. At this point I fear doing what Rome did by thinking theologically to define God without clear biblical teaching.

I need to turn to understanding if synergism is in scripture. If synergism is disallowed or backed up it makes a world of difference.

 

[Reformed1689]

A paradox of single predestination and God desiring all saved. The classic Lutheran paradox. I don't agree with the rest of their explanation though. Now, I know Reformed posit multiple wills for God to get around this, but I can't remotely see how you get there in scripture. At this point I fear doing what Rome did by thinking theologically to define God without clear biblical teaching.

I need to turn to understanding if synergism is in scripture. If synergism is disallowed or backed up it makes a world of difference.

I can assure you that synergism is not in Scripture. That is abundantly clear. I still also do not see the paradox. To me, the paradox comes because you are trying to rationalize Scripture.

 

[atpollard]

All this "God chose individuals for salvation before creation" basis for predestination is obviously bogus.
1 Peter 2:9-10 says we were once not a people. Therefore we were not chosen to be God's people before creation. 1 Peter 2:9-10 says we once had not obtained mercy. Therefore we were not chosen individually to be God's people before creation.

I was once not born ... still a sperm and egg that had not connected ... does that mean that I was once not destined to be a "Pollard"?
I was destined to be a child of my parents long before my creation.
Why is it so hard to imagine that God is less capable of planning for my existence than my human parents?

[Romans 8:29-30 NASB] 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

• Scripture clearly states that God FOREKNEW and PREDESTINED individuals ("those") before God CALLED and JUSTIFIED them.

[Matthew 25:34 NASB] 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

• God prepared a Kingdom ...
  1. from the foundation of the world
  2. for specific individuals ("you")

[Ephesians 1:3-6 NASB] 3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

• Scripture says GOD chose US.
• Scripture says that GOD made His choice "before the foundation of the world".
• Scripture says God PREDESTINED us.
• Scripture says that God's predestination was based on "the kind intention of His will".

[Revelation 13:8 NASB] 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, [everyone] whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
[Revelation 17:8 NASB] 8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

• The names in the book of life of the Lamb were written FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

The so called 'bogusness' of the claim that "God chose individuals for salvation before creation" is anything but 'obvious'.

 

[Van]

I was once not born ... still a sperm and egg that had not connected ... does that mean that I was once not destined to be a "Pollard"?
I was destined to be a child of my parents long before my creation.
Why is it so hard to imagine that God is less capable of planning for my existence than my human parents?

[Romans 8:29-30 NASB] 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

• Scripture clearly states that God FOREKNEW and PREDESTINED individuals ("those") before God CALLED and JUSTIFIED them.

[Matthew 25:34 NASB] 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

• God prepared a Kingdom ...
  1. from the foundation of the world
  2. for specific individuals ("you")

[Ephesians 1:3-6 NASB] 3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

• Scripture says GOD chose US.
• Scripture says that GOD made His choice "before the foundation of the world".
• Scripture says God PREDESTINED us.
• Scripture says that God's predestination was based on "the kind intention of His will".

[Revelation 13:8 NASB] 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, [everyone] whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
[Revelation17:8 NASB] 8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

• The names in the book of life of the Lamb were written FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

The so called 'bogusness' of the claim that "God chose individuals for salvation before creation" is anything but 'obvious'.

Not one of the above verses or passages supports the bogus claim.

Lets go over them yet again.

1) For whom He "foreknew." You probably think this says God foresaw the future. But that view is wrong. Foreknew refers to knowledge acquired or formulated in the past being used or implemented in the present. God's redemption plan, formulated before the foundation of the world is being presented here. God's redemption plan included that everyone chosen and placed in Christ would be conformed to the image of His Son. Do you see any mention of "foreseen individuals?" Nope Whoever God's Redeemer redeems will be conformed to the image of His Son.

2) [Matthew 25:34 NASB] 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

When is this conversation set? Past, present, or future, the End Times judgement? End times. So the individuals were not foreseen, but rather those who lived since the foundation of the world. This period stretches from the creation week to the end of the age. Therefore, once again, no support.

3) Ephesians 1:3-6. When is this conversation set? In the present (Paul's 1st century present). Thus the "us" refers to redeemed individuals in Paul's audience. How were they (and by inference us) chosen before creation? Corporately! When God chose His Redeemer (His Lamb of God) before creation, He corporately chose those His Redeemer would redeem, thus He chose us in Him. Next the redemption plan predestined everyone chosen individually during their lifetime to be adopted at Christ's second coming, the redemption of our bodies (Romans 8:33).

4) Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8, yes the individual names are written when the person is placed in Christ, and again that period stretches from (since) the creation week to the end of the age.

 

[atpollard]

Not one of the above verses or passages supports the bogus claim.

 

[Reformed1689]

No sense in continuing to argue with a broken record.

 

[utilyan]

Prevenient grace in the Arminian sense is a falsehood. And, again, if God's will was to save every person, he would do that. But since he does not, there is something wrong with your assumption.

If God's will was NOT to save everyone, He would not COMMAND everyone not to sin.

When Jesus judges, and says why did you not believe?

I was born hated and rejected by my God who ordained and sealed me in unbelief from when I was born till death, because of a sin committed by the first man.


" if God's will was to save every person, he would do that."

Here is the question Calvinist too scared to answer. When a hypocrite knows he is wrong.

Is it GOD's WILL for you to SIN TODAY or TOMORROW?

" if God's will was to save every person, he would do that.

 

[Walpole]

A paradox of single predestination and God desiring all saved. The classic Lutheran paradox. I don't agree with the rest of their explanation though. Now, I know Reformed posit multiple wills for God to get around this, but I can't remotely see how you get there in scripture. At this point I fear doing what Rome did by thinking theologically to define God without clear biblical teaching.

I need to turn to understanding if synergism is in scripture. If synergism is disallowed or backed up it makes a world of difference.

Synergism is explicitly taught in the Scriptures. Here are a few examples...

Mark 16:20 ---> “And they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with [sunergountos] them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it. Amen."

Romans 8:28 ---> “We know that in everything God works for good with [sunergei eis agathon] those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.”

1 Corinthians 3:9 ---> “For we are God’s fellow workers [sunergoi]; you are God’s field, God’s building.”

2 Corinthians 6:1 ---> “Working together with [sunergountes] him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.”

 

[Reformed1689]

If God's will was NOT to save everyone, He would not COMMAND everyone not to sin.

That is definitely your position. But not reality.

 

[Van]

A claim was made, and three passages were presented in support. I rebutted the claim and showed that none of the three passages actually supported the claim. The response, an emoticon of dismissal.

This is all they have folks - bogus doctrine supported by verses "interpreted" to provide support, where none actually exists.

God desires all men to be saved according to His redemption plan where the good news is presented by believers and then God credits the faith of those in go all in for Christ as righteousness. And based on that "credited faith" God places the individual spiritually into Christ and seals him or her in Christ with the Holy Spirit.