OK, what does R.C. Sproul mean when he says God ordained evil? Does he mean God decreed evil to happen?
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It is always refreshing to find yet another example of expert testimony on what Calvinists believe by a self-proclaimed non-Calvinist. Perhaps you could offer an explanation on why you can never explain what YOU believe with the same clarity that you misrepresent what I believe?
How are men saved?
The central issue separating Arminianism and Calvinism doctrinally, to me, is whether God desires all people to be saved.
Currently I believe God wants all saved, but this causes me to see a great paradox all over scripture. God of all Beings desires things but does not get them. God rules and reigns on His throne, but somehow His will concerning sin is disobeyed. I don't claim to know how this works, that is the mind of and wisdom of God.
The will is clearly degraded before salvation according to scripture. Romans 1 through Romans 8 shows the Law cannot be kept, that is why we need the Cross. Even then, Romans 8 is clear without Life by the Spirit it is impossible to be holy. We are changed forever when the Holy Spirit comes in us at salvation.
Calvinism is correct, Romans 9 makes it clear that God must show mercy and compassion in choosing one for salvation to be saved. However, there are verses indicating God wants all saved.
Calvinism is correct that double predestination is not beyond God's character according to Romans 9. If He wanted children of wrath He could do so, and what right has clay to complain? It is just the bible states such is not the case because God wants all saved.
However, Arminianism is a paradox of the highest order. A God that wants all saved has not given all the knowledge of the narrow door to life before they die. God is omnipotent and reigns sovereign, but His will is thwarted. God gives mercy and compassion to all, but Pharaoh and Judas Iscariot exist.
Theologically, it seems everything hinges on another question now: Can God Call but people resist His Call and will? Is that what is happening with those preached the Gospel that reject it?
Is faith a credit (not a work as the first half of Romans 4 explains) allowed to those who do not resist God's Call to put faith in Jesus. Those that must be Called through the preaching of the Gospel and God's compassion and mercy shown them in His choosing to draw them.
I believe I have made sense of things if God's will can be resisted, which it can if He wants all to be saved. That seems to be the story of scripture, God loves us for us to despise Him and resist His will.
I am thus Arminian in that God's Call is able to bed resisted, but in all else I am Calvinist. I only wonder on the perseverance of the saints. I must go to scripture and do more research.
Now, to the meat of this thread. I, like many Christians, draw the doctrine God wants all saved from the following verses.
Romans 11:32 NASB
32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
2 Peter 3:9 NASB
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 NASB
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the [c]knowledge of the truth.
Matthew 23:37 NASB
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
Ezekiel 18:23 NASB
Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “[k]rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
Ezekiel 18:32 NASB
"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."
Ezekiel 33:11 NASB
"Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'
These verses seem clear, but I must allow Brethren to challenge my reading to be sure I have things right.
That said, I will say that the chief issue for Calvinism is defining "all" and "every" in limited ways. This seems on the surface to read into the text. Logic alone does not seem a good enough reason to do so. If scripture does not clarify directly, and if scripture directly contradicts the idea.
Let the discussion commence!
Yet another defamation, another smear, another misrepresentation. Did I say the Fall did not result in being made sinners, being corrupted such that we are predisposed to sin? Nope.Like Pelagianism.
Typically "ordain" means more than allows but less than decreed. God is not the author of evil but that evil act may be ordained to occur (it could serve God's will). The Romans were ordained to crucify Jesus. The Jews were ordained to give him over to be killed. But this was by the predetermined will of God. The Jews and Romans are not without guilt (they cannot say "God made me do it"). Christ died "at the hands of wicked men" not God. Yet it was in accordance with God's will.OK, what does R.C. Sproul mean when he says God ordained evil? Does he mean God decreed evil to happen?
Typically "ordain" means more than allows but less than decreed. God is not the author of evil but that evil act may be ordained to occur (it could serve God's will). The Romans were ordained to crucify Jesus. The Jews were ordained to give him over to be killed. But this was by the predetermined will of God. The Jews and Romans are not without guilt (they cannot say "God made me do it"). Christ died "at the hands of wicked men" not God. Yet it was in accordance with God's will.
You made your response a declaration and defamation of the beliefs of all Calvinists. As a Calvinist, your attack WAS directed at me.Keep in mind my reply wasn't even to you, you just made it yours.
Tell me what part I got wrong/misrepresented and challenge it. I'd be more than happy to take it back, as it were.
How are men saved?
You said that there are no paradoxes, only false teaching.Yet another defamation, another smear, another misrepresentation. Did I say the Fall did not result in being made sinners, being corrupted such that we are predisposed to sin? Nope.
God desires all people to be saved. Anyone who denies this simply denies obvious biblical truth.
God does not compel all people to be saved. Anyone who denies this simply denies obvious truth.
Therefore, obviously, God desires all people to be saved "according to His redemption plan" where believers act as His ambassadors begging the lost to be reconciled to God. If a person chooses to truth in Christ fully, and God knows his or her heart, then God is faithful to credit his or her faith as righteousness and places them "in Christ" where they are reborn, made alive, their sin burden removed (justified) and indwelt forever.
You made your response a declaration and defamation of the beliefs of all Calvinists. As a Calvinist, your attack WAS directed at me.
You said ...
Four references to “they” (Calvinists) and I am one of “them”.
- “Calvinism and Common Sense never go together.
- “They make God out to be some angry chimp ...”
- “Their Gospel is so stupid and simple I could deliver ...”
- [snip misrepresentation of Gospel]
- “They can complain how I put it.... but they can't deny its absolutely true to them.”
I would be happier if you could simply correct our understanding by clearly presenting your CORRECT Biblical understanding as I already requested and you have ignored. You profess expertise on “OUR” beliefs, so it should be a simple matter to articulate YOUR beliefs.
I asked you ...
THAT’S CALVINISM!How are men saved?
God's Grace.
THAT’S CALVINISM!
God just saves whomever he pleases ... period.
(Perhaps you need to expound on your beliefs before people start thinking that you are Reformed.)
"God just saves whomever he pleases ... period."
God's Grace Commands all mankind not to Sin.
That sentence makes no sense to me. Could you define “grace” and then explain that statement clearer.
How does GRACE “command”?
Are you saying that only those that do not sin are saved? (The original question was “How are men saved?”)
Just letting you all know it will take a few days to do a soteriology, it's a big project.
Also Kobe Bryant's death hit me hard. Followed that guy on ESPN a while, as a result I may not do anymore work tonight. Please pray for loved ones and fans to be saved if not already saved.
Don't try to rush this. It's not a race. Study thoroughly, don't just wave a flag in the wind and go with whatever seems right at the moment.Just letting you all know it will take a few days to do a soteriology, it's a big project.
Seven people killed in that crash and the only two named in the news reports were Bryant and his daughgter. What about the others killed, they are just as important.