My Stance and Does God Want Everyone Saved

[Steven Yeadon]

The central issue separating Arminianism and Calvinism doctrinally, to me, is whether God desires all people to be saved.

Currently I believe God wants all saved, but this causes me to see a great paradox all over scripture. God of all Beings desires things but does not get them. God rules and reigns on His throne, but somehow His will concerning sin is disobeyed. I don't claim to know how this works, that is the mind of and wisdom of God.

The will is clearly degraded before salvation according to scripture. Romans 1 through Romans 8 shows the Law cannot be kept, that is why we need the Cross. Even then, Romans 8 is clear without Life by the Spirit it is impossible to be holy. We are changed forever when the Holy Spirit comes in us at salvation.

Calvinism is correct, Romans 9 makes it clear that God must show mercy and compassion in choosing one for salvation to be saved. However, there are verses indicating God wants all saved.

Calvinism is correct that double predestination is not beyond God's character according to Romans 9. If He wanted children of wrath He could do so, and what right has clay to complain? It is just the bible states such is not the case because God wants all saved.

However, Arminianism is a paradox of the highest order. A God that wants all saved has not given all the knowledge of the narrow door to life before they die. God is omnipotent and reigns sovereign, but His will is thwarted. God gives mercy and compassion to all, but Pharaoh and Judas Iscariot exist.

Theologically, it seems everything hinges on another question now: Can God Call but people resist His Call and will? Is that what is happening with those preached the Gospel that reject it?

Is faith a credit (not a work as the first half of Romans 4 explains) allowed to those who do not resist God's Call to put faith in Jesus. Those that must be Called through the preaching of the Gospel and God's compassion and mercy shown them in His choosing to draw them.

I believe I have made sense of things if God's will can be resisted, which it can if He wants all to be saved. That seems to be the story of scripture, God loves us for us to despise Him and resist His will.

I am thus Arminian in that God's Call is able to bed resisted, but in all else I am Calvinist. I only wonder on the perseverance of the saints. I must go to scripture and do more research.

Now, to the meat of this thread. I, like many Christians, draw the doctrine God wants all saved from the following verses.

Romans 11:32 NASB
32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

2 Peter 3:9 NASB
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 NASB
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the [c]knowledge of the truth.

Matthew 23:37 NASB
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Ezekiel 18:23 NASB
Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “[k]rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:32 NASB
"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

Ezekiel 33:11 NASB
"Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'


These verses seem clear, but I must allow Brethren to challenge my reading to be sure I have things right.

That said, I will say that the chief issue for Calvinism is defining "all" and "every" in limited ways. This seems on the surface to read into the text. Logic alone does not seem a good enough reason to do so. If scripture does not clarify directly, and if scripture directly contradicts the idea.

Let the discussion commence!

 

[Reformed1689]

@Steven Yeadon all of those verses have been dealt with ad nauseum in these forums by Calvinists. It comes down to the context of each verse. For example, Romans 11:32 this is not talking about all as in every individual person. Remember, Romans is about showing Christ for both Jew and Gentile. So all is all types of people, not individual people.

2 Peter 3:9 is talking about the beloved. Not wishing that any of the beloved should perish. He is patient toward "you" well who is the "you" in this verse? That is who he is writing to and he is writing to the elect. So all, again, is not every individual. Especially since the broader passage is talking about destroying the wicked.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

 

[Iconoclast]

God has never purposed to save every person ever born.

 

[Reformed1689]

God has never purposed to save every person ever born.

Agreed

 

[Iconoclast]

Agreed

The judgments of God protecting the Godly line, show His purpose has never changed at all.
A Covenant keeping God is faithful to Himself.

11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.

17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

 

[HankD]

God has never purposed to save every person ever born.

scripture?

 

[Iconoclast]

scripture?

Hello Hank
How did the flood assist in the saving of the world of the ungodly?
How did the fire and brimstone help promote salvation of the Sodomites?
Did the confusion of the languages and scattering of the people assist in salvation?
When God commanded the destruction of the heathen nations by the Israelites, as we are told th e land vomit them out,lev18....how did that show a desire to save all men?

 

[HankD]

Hello Hank
How did the flood assist in the saving of the world of the ungodly?
How did the fire and brimstone help promote salvation of the Sodomites?
Did the confusion of the languages and scattering of the people assist in salvation?
When God commanded the destruction of the heathen nations by the Israelites, as we are told th e land vomit them out,lev18....how did that show a desire to save all men?

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

@Steven Yeadon all of those verses have been dealt with ad nauseum in these forums by Calvinists. It comes down to the context of each verse. For example, Romans 11:32 this is not talking about all as in every individual person. Remember, Romans is about showing Christ for both Jew and Gentile. So all is all types of people, not individual people.

2 Peter 3:9 is talking about the beloved. Not wishing that any of the beloved should perish. He is patient toward "you" well who is the "you" in this verse? That is who he is writing to and he is writing to the elect. So all, again, is not every individual. Especially since the broader passage is talking about destroying the wicked.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

Ezekiel is the clincher for me. 1 Timothy 2 is a strong statement as well. I see your point on 2 Peter though. There is more than one interpretation that is defensible. I will reflect more on Romans 11

 

[atpollard]

Ezekiel 18:23 NASB
Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “[k]rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:32 NASB
"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

Ezekiel 33:11 NASB
"Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'

I am unconvinced that these verses, taken in isolation, actually show that God requires the salvation of anyone. They merely state that God does not take pleasure in destroying the wicked (which does not mean that a Holy and a Just God will not destroy ALL who sin for their wickedness.) It places the blame for the wickedness of men on the sinful acts of men rather than as the desire of God.

To read into this that God desires all men to be saved seems to go beyond what is actually said.

So what prevents God from making salvation by grace through faith the gift to all and saving all from Hell, if that is God’s desire?

 

[Jerome]

1 Timothy 2 is a strong statement as well

Indeed.

Charles Spurgeon rebuked those Calvinists who'd tried to contort that Scripture to fit their grand scheme:

re: I Timothy 2

"What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. "All men," say they, —"that is, some men": as if the Holy Ghost could not have said "some men" if he had meant some men. "All men," say they; "that is, some of all sorts of men": as if the Lord could not have said "all sorts of men" if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written "all men," and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the "alls" according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. I thought when I read his exposition that it would have been a very capital comment upon the text if it had read, "Who will not have all men to be saved, nor come to a knowledge of the truth."Had such been the inspired language every remark of the learned doctor would have been exactly in keeping, but as it happens to say, "Who will have all men to be saved," his observations are more than a little out of place. My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God. I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself, for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God that I should want to lop away a bough or even a twig from so much as a single tree of the forest of Scripture. God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression. So runs the text, and so we must read it, "God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."" —Charles Spurgeon, "Salvation By Knowing the Truth"

 

[canadyjd]

Steven, let me add another element that I wrestled with. God is omnipotent and omniscient. So, God has the ability to influence every person as much as necessary to bring them to salvation and He knows exactly how much influence each person needs to bring them to salvation.

So, all that He wants to be saved will be saved.

Peace to you

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Steven, let me add another element that I wrestled with. God is omnipotent and omniscient. So, God has the ability to influence every person as much as necessary to bring them to salvation and He knows exactly how much influence each person needs to bring them to salvation.

So, all that He wants to be saved will be saved.

Peace to you

To be frank, I am wary of going with the reasonable response in relation to God. He is so far above us in wisdom and thoughts. My concern is that such a stance is unreasonable because of scriptures saying all are desired to be saved. It seems better to live with the paradox and resulting tension than to go out on a limb exegetically to make things reasonable.

Of course, I now see Calvinists are honestly seeking brethren, and that my doctrine is almost the same as yours.

 

[Reformed1689]

To be frank, I am wary of going with the reasonable response in relation to God. He is so far above us in wisdom and thoughts. My concern is that such a stance is unreasonable because of scriptures saying all are desired to be saved. It seems better to live with the paradox and resulting tension than to go out on a limb exegetically to make things reasonable.

Of course, I now see Calvinists are honestly seeking brethren, and that my doctrine is almost the same as yours.

Except you have yet to show one actual verse that states God desires every individual person to be saved. How do you reconcile that stance with Sodom and Gomorrah or with the flood? God destroyed those people. If he desired them to be saved why would he not withhold His wrath? What about Pharaoh?

 

[Yeshua1]

The central issue separating Arminianism and Calvinism doctrinally, to me, is whether God desires all people to be saved.

Currently I believe God wants all saved, but this causes me to see a great paradox all over scripture. God of all Beings desires things but does not get them. God rules and reigns on His throne, but somehow His will concerning sin is disobeyed. I don't claim to know how this works, that is the mind of and wisdom of God.

The will is clearly degraded before salvation according to scripture. Romans 1 through Romans 8 shows the Law cannot be kept, that is why we need the Cross. Even then, Romans 8 is clear without Life by the Spirit it is impossible to be holy. We are changed forever when the Holy Spirit comes in us at salvation.

Calvinism is correct, Romans 9 makes it clear that God must show mercy and compassion in choosing one for salvation to be saved. However, there are verses indicating God wants all saved.

Calvinism is correct that double predestination is not beyond God's character according to Romans 9. If He wanted children of wrath He could do so, and what right has clay to complain? It is just the bible states such is not the case because God wants all saved.

However, Arminianism is a paradox of the highest order. A God that wants all saved has not given all the knowledge of the narrow door to life before they die. God is omnipotent and reigns sovereign, but His will is thwarted. God gives mercy and compassion to all, but Pharaoh and Judas Iscariot exist.

Theologically, it seems everything hinges on another question now: Can God Call but people resist His Call and will? Is that what is happening with those preached the Gospel that reject it?

Is faith a credit (not a work as the first half of Romans 4 explains) allowed to those who do not resist God's Call to put faith in Jesus. Those that must be Called through the preaching of the Gospel and God's compassion and mercy shown them in His choosing to draw them.

I believe I have made sense of things if God's will can be resisted, which it can if He wants all to be saved. That seems to be the story of scripture, God loves us for us to despise Him and resist His will.

I am thus Arminian in that God's Call is able to bed resisted, but in all else I am Calvinist. I only wonder on the perseverance of the saints. I must go to scripture and do more research.

Now, to the meat of this thread. I, like many Christians, draw the doctrine God wants all saved from the following verses.

Romans 11:32 NASB
32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

2 Peter 3:9 NASB
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 NASB
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the [c]knowledge of the truth.

Matthew 23:37 NASB
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Ezekiel 18:23 NASB
Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “[k]rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:32 NASB
"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

Ezekiel 33:11 NASB
"Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'


These verses seem clear, but I must allow Brethren to challenge my reading to be sure I have things right.

That said, I will say that the chief issue for Calvinism is defining "all" and "every" in limited ways. This seems on the surface to read into the text. Logic alone does not seem a good enough reason to do so. If scripture does not clarify directly, and if scripture directly contradicts the idea.

Let the discussion commence!

All of us deserve eternal Hell, so the Grace of god has provided for some of us to get redeemed and go to heaven!
Either its the will of God that all would get saved, or some, for anything else would make Him no longer God in his attributes!

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Except you have yet to show one actual verse that states God desires every individual person to be saved. How do you reconcile that stance with Sodom and Gomorrah or with the flood? God destroyed those people. If he desired them to be saved why would he not withhold His wrath? What about Pharaoh?

I believe God hates the death of the wicked based on Ezekiel. If God hates these deaths, then I must ask Calvinists why God does what He hates to predestine wicked people to die? Also the 2 Timothy 2 verse and what Spurgeon said makes sense.

I feel some if not many Arminians make the mistake of arguing for a nonexistent God, whose character is different from Yahweh as revealed in Romans 9. Many Arminians believe in a rainbows and fluffy bunnies Yahweh Who is good according to modern notions. A Yahweh the scriptures do not describe.

I feel Calvinists are stretching things to make them make sense. If God's sovereignty was so easy to understand then why the doxology of Romans 11? Why not just spell out the one, maybe two, sentences needed in scripture clearly? Instead of leaving us guessing in this forum between two well meaning sides? God's sovereignty applies to our available revelation in the bible. If this is true, then something does not make sense if Calvinism is correct. God has the power to make it plain if Calvinism is true, but He didn't, otherwise this forum would not exist.

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe God hates the death of the wicked based on Ezekiel. If God hates these deaths, then I must ask Calvinists why God does what He hates to predestine wicked people to die? Also the 2 Timothy 2 verse and what Spurgeon said makes sense.

I feel some if not many Arminians make the mistake of arguing for a nonexistent God, whose character is different from Yahweh as revealed in Romans 9. Many Arminians believe in a rainbows and fluffy bunnies Yahweh Who is good according to modern notions. A Yahweh the scriptures do not describe.

I feel Calvinists are stretching things to make them make sense. If God's sovereignty was so easy to understand then why the doxology of Romans 11? Why not just spell out the one, maybe two, sentences needed in scripture clearly? Instead of leaving us guessing in this forum between two well meaning sides? God's sovereignty applies to our available revelation in the bible. If this is true, then something does not make sense if Calvinism is correct. God has the power to make it plain if Calvinism is true, but He didn't, otherwise this forum would not exist.

Ezekiel does not refer at all to a spiritual condition/situation, as it I sonly addressing physical death penalty.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Except you have yet to show one actual verse that states God desires every individual person to be saved. How do you reconcile that stance with Sodom and Gomorrah or with the flood? God destroyed those people. If he desired them to be saved why would he not withhold His wrath? What about Pharaoh?

As for those God exercises His wrath against, the scriptures make clear God has patience with evil people, like myself for far too long. He desires our repentance, but we must fear, for He will not persevere forever.

This is a classic Calvinist vs. Arminian debate, does God make Pharaoh and Judas or find and use them to cast them aside? I don't understand things well enough to say except that if God truly hates the death of the wicked, finiding no pleasure in it, then it only makes sense He would not make a Pharaoh or Judas from the beginning to be children of wrath. I can rule out double predestination with this reasoning, but not anything short of it.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Ezekiel does not refer at all to a spiritual condition/situation, as it I sonly addressing physical death penalty.

Are not those that hate God going to hell upon death? If they repent like David with Bathsheba, then they may be spared. I think you are trying to split a wire that can't be split.

 

[Reformed1689]

As for those God exercises His wrath against, the scriptures make clear God has patience with evil people, like myself for far too long. He desires our repentance, but we must fear, for He will not persevere forever.

This is a classic Calvinist vs. Arminian debate, does God make Pharaoh and Judas or find and use them to cast them aside? I don't understand things well enough to say except that if God truly hates the death of the wicked, finiding no pleasure in it, then it only makes sense He would not make a Pharaoh or Judas from the beginning to be children of wrath. I can rule out double predestination with this reasoning, but not anything short of it.

Ok, you have just shown an inconsistency. You don't want to use reasoning when it supports Calvinism, but you use it when it supports what you want to be true.