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My Stance and Does God Want Everyone Saved

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Steven Yeadon, Jan 24, 2020.

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  1. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    OK, what does R.C. Sproul mean when he says God ordained evil? Does he mean God decreed evil to happen?
     
    #41 Steven Yeadon, Jan 25, 2020
  2. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Tell me what part I got wrong/misrepresented and challenge it. I'd be more than happy to take it back, as it were.


    Keep in mind my reply wasn't even to you, you just made it yours.
     
    #42 utilyan, Jan 25, 2020
  3. Noah Hirsch

    Noah Hirsch Active Member

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    I am a Calvinist and hold to all five points, but at the same time hold that God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. This is not a contradiction. I do not believe that God does not desire everyone to be saved and at the same time that He does desire all to be saved. That would be a contradiction. I distinguish between God’s sovereign will and His will of that which is pleasing to Him. He does love everyone in the sense of having benevolent love, desiring all to be saved and converted, but He also has predestined some to salvation and others to damnation. I believe that there is a sense that grace is resistible in that God invites and commands all to repent and believe because God is love. I also believe that unregenerate men resist the Spirit of God convicting them of sin as do sometimes the regenerate also resist the Spirit. I do not believe, however, that the converting grace of God is resistible. I believe regeneration is a supernatural work of God by His Spirit in the heart of a sinner, in which He gives him a new heart and a new spirit, (Ezekiel 36:26) so that he repents and believes.
     
    #43 Noah Hirsch, Jan 26, 2020
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another defamation, another smear, another misrepresentation. Did I say the Fall did not result in being made sinners, being corrupted such that we are predisposed to sin? Nope.

    God desires all people to be saved. Anyone who denies this simply denies obvious biblical truth.

    God does not compel all people to be saved. Anyone who denies this simply denies obvious truth.

    Therefore, obviously, God desires all people to be saved "according to His redemption plan" where believers act as His ambassadors begging the lost to be reconciled to God. If a person chooses to truth in Christ fully, and God knows his or her heart, then God is faithful to credit his or her faith as righteousness and places them "in Christ" where they are reborn, made alive, their sin burden removed (justified) and indwelt forever.
     
    #44 Van, Jan 26, 2020
  5. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    Ok, I do not see double predestination as fully explaining things theologically. Here is why,

    1. I remembered another key bible verse

    Lamentations 3:33-36
    For He does not afflict [j]willingly (literally with His heart)
    Or grieve the sons of men.
    To crush under His feet
    All the prisoners of the [k]land,
    35 To [l]deprive a man of justice
    In the presence of the Most High,
    36 To [m]defraud a man in his lawsuit—
    Of these things the Lord does not [n]approve.

    This section of scripture is even stronger than Ezekiel. Still, if God wants all to repent and be saved, it is not equally for each person.

    2. Clearly, God did not decree sin against Him. He is not the One that ordered the world so that beings sin. This makes Him not a tempter of others to rebellion, as the bible says.

    3. God gives people choices throughout history. This seems to indicate having the power of will to obey or disobey. The key question is how much are we made in God's image? In the freedom of choice He clearly enjoys.

    However, I must restate that God could make children of wrath and children of mercy. If He wanted to. I just can't see how to get there in the bible for this Age.
     
    #45 Steven Yeadon, Jan 26, 2020
  6. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    I have decided to finally make a systematic theology of what I believe on soteriology given scripture. I will post it when finished later today.

    The previous post was a bit scatter brained, Here is what I meant.

    1. The verses for God wanting all saved in the OT and 1 Timothy 2 are strongest. The three verses in Ezekiel and those in Lamentations continue to give me great doubts about Limited Atonement. Spurgeon's defense of 1 Timothy 2 posted by Jerome seems especially on point.

    2. God cannot have decreed from before the world is made rebellion against Him. To have God decree the sinful acts of His children is to make Him the Author of Sin. It would be no different than giving a virus purposely to your own children. Of course the parent who does so is responsible for the outbreak and resultant infection.

    3. God clearly acts like people have choice throughout the Old Testament and New Testament narratives. He makes covenants, issues countless commands in the Law and Prophets with blessings and consequences based on obedience or disobedience, and He acts like we have moral responsibility to do as He says or to disobey Him. To say God didn't really mean this understanding is to be deceptive.

    That said, God clearly foreordains some to eternal blessing from before birth.

    God's character is not like modern Arminians defend. He is sovereign and could make children of wrath and children of mercy and why can pottery complain to Him? Why must Arminians "defend" Him, when it clearly says this is within His character in Romans 9?

    God will have mercy on whom He has mercy and compassion on whom He has compassion. If God wants all saved, then He clearly does not want all saved equally. Many have a very limited aspect of the Gospel found in nature, God's eternity, divinity, and omnipotence is clear for all. This should invite reverence and thanksgiving of the Creator by those without the Law or Gospel as given in Romans 1.

    I will return to work on my systematic theology and I will be going to church later.
     
    #46 Steven Yeadon, Jan 26, 2020
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Typically "ordain" means more than allows but less than decreed. God is not the author of evil but that evil act may be ordained to occur (it could serve God's will). The Romans were ordained to crucify Jesus. The Jews were ordained to give him over to be killed. But this was by the predetermined will of God. The Jews and Romans are not without guilt (they cannot say "God made me do it"). Christ died "at the hands of wicked men" not God. Yet it was in accordance with God's will.
     
    #47 JonC, Jan 26, 2020
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  8. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    If that is it, then I agree really with the whole video by R.C. Sproul that David linked.
     
    #48 Steven Yeadon, Jan 26, 2020
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    All this "God chose individuals for salvation before creation" basis for predestination is obviously bogus.
    1 Peter 2:9-10 says we were once not a people. Therefore we were not chosen to be God's people before creation. 1 Peter 2:9-10 says we once had not obtained mercy. Therefore we were not chosen individually to be God's people before creation.

    No verse says God foreordains some individuals for eternal blessings from before birth. The opposite is true, God's word precludes individuals from being chosen for eternal blessings from before birth.

    No verse says God does not desire all men to be saved with equal desire. But His redemption plan includes using believers as His ambassadors, and allowing people to fully accept the gospel, or reject it totally or in part.
     
    #49 Van, Jan 26, 2020
  10. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    You made your response a declaration and defamation of the beliefs of all Calvinists. As a Calvinist, your attack WAS directed at me.

    You said ...
    • “Calvinism and Common Sense never go together.
    • “They make God out to be some angry chimp ...”
    • “Their Gospel is so stupid and simple I could deliver ...”
    • [snip misrepresentation of Gospel]
    • “They can complain how I put it.... but they can't deny its absolutely true to them.”
    Four references to “they” (Calvinists) and I am one of “them”.


    I would be happier if you could simply correct our understanding by clearly presenting your CORRECT Biblical understanding as I already requested and you have ignored. You profess expertise on “OUR” beliefs, so it should be a simple matter to articulate YOUR beliefs.

    I asked you ...
     
    #50 atpollard, Jan 26, 2020
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  11. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    You said that there are no paradoxes, only false teaching.
    I responded with “like Pelagianism.” as an example of false teaching.

    Do you deny that Pelagianism is a false teaching? If not, then why are you accusing me of “defamation”, “smear”, and “misrepresentation“?

    If you are concerned that your beliefs are too close to Pelagianism and that is making you defensive, then you might want to reexamine your beliefs.

    As an aside, appealing to “obvious biblical truth” is more effective if you can quote actual biblical scripture to support the claim. Statements made “ex cathedra” tend to carry little weight in Baptist circles.
     
    #51 atpollard, Jan 26, 2020
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  12. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    How are men saved?

    God's Grace.
     
    #52 utilyan, Jan 26, 2020
  13. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    THAT’S CALVINISM!

    God just saves whomever he pleases ... period.

    (Perhaps you need to expound on your beliefs before people start thinking that you are Reformed.)
     
    #53 atpollard, Jan 26, 2020
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  14. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    Just letting you all know it will take a few days to do a soteriology, it's a big project.

    Also Kobe Bryant's death hit me hard. Followed that guy on ESPN a while, as a result I may not do anymore work tonight. Please pray for loved ones and fans to be saved if not already saved.
     
    #54 Steven Yeadon, Jan 26, 2020
  15. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    "God just saves whomever he pleases ... period."

    God's Grace Commands all mankind not to Sin.
     
    #55 utilyan, Jan 26, 2020
  16. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    That sentence makes no sense to me. Could you define “grace” and then explain that statement clearer.

    How does GRACE “command”?
    Are you saying that only those that do not sin are saved? (The original question was “How are men saved?”)
     
    #56 atpollard, Jan 26, 2020
  17. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    No.

    But for example maybe you sinned today even something minor. Did you ask for forgiveness? This would be in response to his grace. Or does someone else posses you or like a automatic robot then do the asking of forgiveness for you?

    We would say YOU asked for forgiveness and at the same time this ACT has GOD absolutely at its source.
     
    #57 utilyan, Jan 26, 2020
  18. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    Seven people killed in that crash and the only two named in the news reports were Bryant and his daughgter. What about the others killed, they are just as important.
     
    #58 David Kent, Jan 27, 2020
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  19. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Don't try to rush this. It's not a race. Study thoroughly, don't just wave a flag in the wind and go with whatever seems right at the moment.
     
    #59 Reformed1689, Jan 27, 2020
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  20. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    Thank you, yes, we must intercede not just for the celebrity and his followers. We must pray for all people including the authorities who would mock and kill Jesus today. 1 Timothy 2:1-3 demands it. Let us pray for the living who are afflicted all over the earth. Thank you brother.
     
    #60 Steven Yeadon, Jan 27, 2020
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