Faulty Theology

[Yeshua1]

I guess you can use "degrees" - yes.

For example, some people, according to the book of Revelation, will need the tree of life to be healed and live on for ever (Rev.22:2, 14).
But that doesn't hold true neither for you nor me, since Christ himself, not the tree, is our life (Col.3:3-4).

We have eternal life and are spiritually alive right now, but nowhere near as grand as when we will get glorified in the resurrection!

 

[George Antonios]

By the way guys, I've provided scriptural backing for the fact that Adam had a living spirit in the previous thread, and here in post #46.
Those points have yet to be addressed.

 

[MB]

Adam was dead in his sins. Do you agree with this? What was he before sin?

1st question: Not necessarily. Scripture does not say one way or the other after all it's only important to you. It has no importance to me
2nd question: Perfect
MB

 

[George Antonios]

What I mean is that God told Adam that on the day he ate of the fruit he would surely die (not that he would die on that day).

Yes, physical death was certain for Adam once he ate of the tree.

BUT we cannot say "otherwise he would have lived physically forever" based on that information because that is denying the antecedent fallacy (the error of inverse). On the surface it seems to make sense, but the conclusion is in fact a logical error. We do not know what may have been on the other side of that "if".

We do know if Adam, after eating of the fruit, ate of the "Tree of Life" then he would have lived forever. I am not sure if we know for certain what that means, but we don't have to (it is still a hypothetical).

Ok I think I understand your point a little better. Thanks.

BUT we cannot say "otherwise he would have lived physically forever"

Yes we can because death only comes as a result of sin:
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin;
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

And because God doesn't create mortal things but he is the God of the living, not of the dead, as our Lord taught us:
Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

We do know if Adam, after eating of the fruit, ate of the "Tree of Life" then he would have lived forever.

Yes we do because God said exactly that:
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

I honestly fail to see the problem here, and of experience, whenever someone unduly struggles with a simple Biblical truth, it's that they're actually aiming at resisting another target behind that surface issue.

 

[Yeshua1]

1st question: Not necessarily. Scripture does not say one way or the other after all it's only important to you. It has no importance to me
2nd question: Perfect
MB

Adam was created with a sinless nature, and was in communion with God, after he fell, no longer was sinless nor in a right relationship! And we are born as sinners away from God due to that now!

 

[InTheLight]

You did say it and you have now restated it. Adam was not "made" spiritually dead. Your phraseology is incorrect.

Oh, I see what you mean. You are correct. I can't believe I wrote something so confusing.

I should have said "if Calvinists believe Adam was created spiritually alive, then became spiritually dead when he sinned, that would be a problem for belief in the "P" of TULIP.

 

[MB]

Adam was created with a sinless nature, and was in communion with God, after he fell, no longer was sinless nor in a right relationship! And we are born as sinners away from God due to that now!

Not true the Bible never says we are born sinners.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

Not true the Bible never says we are born sinners.
MB

We are born with a sin nature, as we are dead in our sins and transgressions!

 

[JonC]

Ok I think I understand your point a little better. Thanks.


Yes we can because death only comes as a result of sin:
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin;
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

And because God doesn't create mortal things but he is the God of the living, not of the dead, as our Lord taught us:
Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.



Yes we do because God said exactly that:
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

I honestly fail to see the problem here, and of experience, whenever someone unduly struggles with a simple Biblical truth, it's that they're actually aiming at resisting another target behind that surface issue.

I actually agree with you. I also fail to see the problem and how some struggle with such a very simple (basic and historic) biblical truth.

I suspect it is because of tradition. We have a very long history of Catholic influence so it comes natural to view this as Adam dying spiritually. Some forget that the KJV is not modern English and take it too superficial as well.

But yes, death only comes as a result of sin. Through Adam's sin death came into the world. Adam was the "natural" and Christ the "spiritual" (1 Cor. 15). We have physical life (and death) in Adam and are given spiritual life in Christ.

Christianity hinges on this truth, but you will find over and over again people believing Adam was created "spiritual" and had "spiritual life" until he "died spiritually". That is the type of error we need to kindly point out to believers.

 

[Yeshua1]

I actually agree with you. I also fail to see the problem and how some struggle with such a very simple (basic and historic) biblical truth.

I suspect it is because of tradition. We have a very long history of Catholic influence so it comes natural to view this as Adam dying spiritually. Some forget that the KJV is not modern English and take it too superficial as well.

But yes, death only comes as a result of sin. Through Adam's sin death came into the world. Adam was the "natural" and Christ the "spiritual" (1 Cor. 15). We have physical life (and death) in Adam and are given spiritual life in Christ.

Christianity hinges on this truth, but you will find over and over again people believing Adam was created "spiritual" and had "spiritual life" until he "died spiritually". That is the type of error we need to kindly point out to believers.

We have both physical and spiritual life now, why not Adam?

 

[AustinC]

You are right and wrong. On this forum and within evangelical baptists (and Reformed doctrine) my position is an outlier. I do not deny this. It is not a standard position on this board (the Baptist Board) or within even my own denomination. BUT that does not mean it is an outlier within Christianity as a whole. It is a very orthodox position, just not YOUR orthodox position.

That is where @Revmitchell made a mistake. He used himself as the standard rather than Scripture and the Christian faith.

For example, @Martin Marprelate teaches that God separated from Jesus on the Cross. I personally hold this as a heresy (it is what I consider a blasphemy) to my standard it is within orthodox Christianity. It is a minority view but it is also a Christian view.

I came to this board to learn about other people's views and to explore my own within orthodox faith. I did not come here to preach to the choir or to change anyone to my view.

With all due respect, everyone here is dealing with scripture. Please don't imagine you are the only person using scripture.
What you have done is actually not use scripture, but instead make the claim that scripture does not say and thus you infer that by not finding the exact word (spirit) this makes your position valid. In truth, your argument is one of silence in scripture, which you take as the impetus to your view having legitimacy. Lack of a specific word in Genesis 2 does not therefore make your position legitimate.

Finally, as a moderator you have a bully pulpit when you argue. You can shut down a thread if it doesn't go your way. I would ask you to recuse yourself of moderator privileges if you are going to drive personal threads. At the very least, recuse yourself of that role in every thread where you join the discussion.

 

[Yeshua1]

With all due respect, everyone here is dealing with scripture. Please don't imagine you are the only person using scripture.
What you have done is actually not use scripture, but instead make the claim that scripture does not say and thus you infer that by not finding the exact word (spirit) this makes your position valid. In truth, your argument is one of silence in scripture, which you take as the impetus to your view having legitimacy. Lack of a specific word in Genesis 2 does not therefore make your position legitimate.

he always state that we are speculating or adding philosophy to what the scriptures say, but he seems to be doing the very same thing that we are claimed to be doing!

 

[JonC]

With all due respect, everyone here is dealing with scripture. Please don't imagine you are the only person using scripture.
What you have done is actually not use scripture, but instead make the claim that scripture does not say and thus you infer that by not finding the exact word (spirit) this makes your position valid. In truth, your argument is one of silence in scripture, which you take as the impetus to your view having legitimacy. Lack of a specific word in Genesis 2 does not therefore make your position legitimate.

Finally, as a moderator you have a bully pulpit when you argue. You can shut down a thread if it doesn't go your way. I would ask you to recuse yourself of moderator privileges if you are going to drive personal threads. At the very least, recuse yourself of that role in every thread where you join the discussion.

Please post the scripture and put in bold where it says Adam was created spirit and died spiritually.

I have but will again.

Also, the "bully pulpit" comment is uncalled for. I discuss as a member, not a moderator. I always allow others to moderate posts where I am an interested party and to be honest I resent the implication as it questions my integrity (something I have not done to you).

 

[Calminian]

Yes. Several times. One would have to be illiterate or lazy not to at least know what I mean by spiritual life and spiritual death.

Or, I haven't been here in a while. I remember you dodging this a while back. But if you've finally defined it, please let me know what you came up with, or point me to a link where you defined it.

 

[Reformed1689]

1st question: Not necessarily. Scripture does not say one way or the other after all it's only important to you. It has no importance to me
2nd question: Perfect
MB

Scripture actually does state we are dead in sin. So was Adam somehow exempt from this statement of Scripture? It's not only important to me. It is directly found in Scripture and the fact that it is not important to you is a little concerning.

 

[Reformed1689]

Please post the scripture and put in bold where it says Adam was created spirit and died spiritually. Thank you.

Dead in sin John. That isn't a physical death since people are physically alive while being dead in sin.

 

[Calminian]

Oh, I see what you mean. You are correct. I can't believe I wrote something so confusing.

I should have said "if Calvinists believe Adam was created spiritually alive, then became spiritually dead when he sinned, that would be a problem for belief in the "P" of TULIP.

Why is that?

 

[Reformed1689]

Why is that?

It's not a problem. It is strawman arguments.

 

[Calminian]

Dead in sin John. That isn't a physical death since people are physically alive while being dead in sin.

Checkmate.

 

[Calminian]

It's not a problem. It is strawman arguments.

I presume they're defining life as having the Spirit. But it's the Spirit that gives us life. Our perseverance and eternal life is guaranteed by the Sprit Himself, not the life he gave us.

At least I'm guessing that's where they're going. I thought this argument was put to rest 1500 years ago.