Hi friends! In a bit of a pickle and need advice

[Derek J]

Hello Baptist Board!
My name is Derek, and I'm excited to join. I've come across this website a few times through google, and the conversations always intrigued me. Figured this would be a better place to spend my time than on social media.

Anyways, here is what I need advice on : Should I stay or go at my church?
I have struggled and prayed over it for a couple months now, and haven't gotten any clear indication on what to do next. About 6 months ago I became a born again christian after many years of false profession (and athiesm at one point). Since then, I have become painfully aware of the error and strangeness floating around my fairly liberal Nazarene church. It doesn't help that we have a local Nazarene college pumping out people who have read every popular "theology" book except the one that matters.

Here is a sampling of some of the things going on:
1. Most (not all) people hold onto a belief of "Jesus' words only"; that is, to say that they pick and choose whatever goes along with their world view. I've been called a fundamentalist more than once for saying I believe everything in the OT actually happened .
2. There has been a heavier push for tithing in recent years. Every other week they mention it in the sermon. Might have to do with the church going from 1000 members to 200 in a few short years.
3. Barely ever bring up the gospel or any challenging topic. Most of the time the sermon is a moral lesson, and they do an occasional alter call. They also employ the famous sinner's prayer.
4. Mainstream christian music, falsely called worship. Hymns are just too lame, apparently.
5. A lot of vision talk and conferences, and very little service to the body and the community.
6. The pastor for many years got brain cancer and died a few years ago. The new pastor also got brain cancer, and beat it; but now is unable to preach due to brain damage. During this time, a group of people in the church, including the pastor's wife, got into prayer healing. In a few services they loudly prayed "You will heal [pastor]! He will be healed!". Whatever happened to the sovereignty of God? Anyways, someone finally shut them down, after a ton of people left the church. The pastor recently stepped down.
7. There is a very "experiential" element to the church; so much so I though I had to have a personal "experience" from God to know I was saved. A lot of people's testimonies included some sort of appearance or revelation from God. It caused a lot of grief for me in my younger years, because I never had the sort of experiences other people said they had.
8. Hypocrites. They praise Jesus with their lips, and deny him with their actions. Lots of divorce, sexual sin, and endless streams of gossip.
9. Lots of feminism. Many of the men in the congregation let their wives wear the pants, and male membership is overall low. I'm worried our next pastor may be a woman or a couple, because there have been rumours.

Thats just some of it. And I don't want to seem like one of those people who endlessly complains and only wants to be served; I serve in whatever ways I can and love them. I'm just starving for some spiritual meat, and to serve under God fearing men. My beliefs are in line with Baptist beliefs, and there are 5 Baptist churches in town (no joke, there are 40 churches in our town of 20k; mostly mainstream and some assorted denoms). I know what I want, but I don't want to supersede God or godly wisdom, so please throw in your two cents. If you have any other questions about the situation ask away.

 

[rlvaughn]

First, Derek, welcome to the Baptist Board. I hope it will be a blessing to you.

Second, I shy away from maybe too strong a pronouncement without knowing both sides of the story, but...

1. have some Nazarene neighbors who are really good folks, but I have a number of theological differences with the Nazarenes, so could not be happy there in the first place.
2. From your list, I could not find much in it that is positive, so that I would want to be part of such a church. On number 7, I would say that I think salvation is a personal experience, but, yes, there can be a problem when people hold up their experiences and use that to measure everyone else's! Sadly, there are hypocrites in all churches, but hopefully in good churches the hypocrites are not proud of and indulgent in their hypocrisy!

May the Lord bless.

 

[Derek J]

First, Derek, welcome to the Baptist Board. I hope it will be a blessing to you.

Second, I shy away from maybe too strong a pronouncement without knowing both sides of the story, but...

1. have some Nazarene neighbors who are really good folks, but I have a number of theological differences with the Nazarenes, so could not be happy there in the first place.
2. From your list, I could not find much in it that is positive, so that I would want to be part of such a church. On number 7, I would say that I think salvation is a personal experience, but, yes, there can be a problem when people hold up their experiences and use that to measure everyone else's! Sadly, there are hypocrites in all churches, but hopefully in good churches the hypocrites are not proud of and indulgent in their hypocrisy!

May the Lord bless.

Thank you Rlvaughn. Nazarenes are wonderful people in general, and many smaller, traditional naz churches are solid. Its just that my church gets the benefit of being next to a college that sends us people indulging in mysticism and ecumenism. Our children's pastor even goes to mass every once in awhile, and no one blinks an eye.

 

[xlsdraw]

This is a really good time to check out other churches' live stream broadcasts. And some churches have archived services viewable as well. Our church does both.

 

[InTheLight]

I am thrilled to hear that you became a true believer recently. Praise the Lord!

Unfortunately the church you are attending is dying. The most concerning things to me are #3, don't preach the gospel and don't preach on difficult subjects, and #5, scant service to the community.

#7 is a definite problem and is likely present because the gospel isn't preached and there is little service to the community. It's almost as if they are saying we don't need to preach the gospel or perform Christian service, so long as we have a personal revelation from God.

As to #8, there are hypocrites in every church, it could be that there are so many in your church because they don't preach the gospel and don't preach on difficult subjects. Sounds like there is little to no leadership from the pulpit so church discipline is lacking.

I wouldn't be too concerned about women wearing pants in church. The part about the children's pastor attending mass really jolted me, though.

I would start looking at those Baptist churches nearby, starting with looking over their websites. Check out their statement of faith, research the pastoral staffs. If they have archived sermons on video I would look at those.

God bless you in your search.

 

[Dave G]

Welcome, Derek.

Anyways, here is what I need advice on : Should I stay or go at my church?

First of all, pray ( a lot ) that the Lord show you what to do.

Secondly, and I can tell you this from experience, God will find you fellowship... but for now, I think that if you stay where you are you will find yourself being looked at strangely, especially if you actually read His words and believe them.

So, pray, and trust Him to show you where to go.

 

[Derek J]

Welcome, Derek.

First of all, pray ( a lot ) that the Lord show you what to do.

Secondly, and I can tell you this from experience, God will find you fellowship... but for now, I think that if you stay where you are you will find yourself being looked at strangely, especially if you actually read His words and believe them.

So, pray, and trust Him to show you where to go.

Thank you, yes, people have noticed I'm different an I have been praying. There was a universalist from our congregation who got pretty angry because I was refuting Brian Zahnd's "Sinners in the hands of a loving God" and sharing the gospel on Instagram. I also met with the discipleship pastor the other week, and I think I shook him up a bit because I quoted scripture he didn't even know. I would like to turn things around for the better, but I am not sure how effective I can be when everything is going to change, because we are in between pastors :/ Time will tell, and I'll keep up the prayer.

 

[Dave G]

There was a universalist from our congregation who got pretty angry because I was refuting Brian Zahnd's "Sinners in the hands of a loving God" and sharing the gospel on Instagram.

I've taken a brief look at that book, and at this point I'll reserve my comments about it for a topic thread, should you be led to start one.
What I will say at this point is, I'm not surprised that someone would get angry with the contents of the Psalms, for example.

I also met with the discipleship pastor the other week, and I think I shook him up a bit because I quoted scripture he didn't even know.

I think I know exactly what you mean.
I recall a story a good brother in the Lord told me some years ago about a very similar situation.

I've also had my own experiences in this area.

I would like to turn things around for the better, but I am not sure how effective I can be when everything is going to change, because we are in between pastors :/ Time will tell, and I'll keep up the prayer.

I'll add my prayers to yours.
Until He answers such, try to be patient and wait on His timing...it's a lesson I have much trouble with, given my hard-headedness "in the flesh" ( Romans 7:18 ).


May you always look to Him in your hour of need, and may you always seek Him in everything, no matter how small it may seem.

 

[Derek J]

I've taken a brief look at that book, and at this point I'll reserve my comments about it for a topic thread, should you be led to start one.
What I will say at this point is, I'm not surprised that someone would get angry with the contents of the Psalms, for example.

I think I know exactly what you mean.
I recall a story a good brother in the Lord told me some years ago about a very similar situation.

I've also had my own experiences in this area.

I'll add my prayers to yours.
Until He answers such, try to be patient and wait on His timing...it's a lesson I have much trouble with, given my hard-headedness "in the flesh" ( Romans 7:18 ).


May you always look to Him in your hour of need, and may you always seek Him in everything, no matter how small it may seem.

Thanks for the exhortation, brother. May God be with you and richly bless you.

I may do a full thread in the next few weeks if I get the time; I am considered an essential worker during the virus, so I'm quite busy. I'll drop a quick summary, but it has been a month since I read it, so it might not be complete.

This book is one of the first books I've ever felt the compulsion to burn (I did restrain myself ).
Zahnd props up the Puritan classic "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" as the mean, bad, no good American theology that must be replaced with his own. Next, he dismissed the OT on the grounds that the Israelites didn't have an understanding of who God was, so they misunderstood bad things happening as judgement. The man then applies John saying Jesus is "The Word" as a proof for Jesus' words only being inerrant. This sets up the rest of his poorly imagined "theology" for the rest of the book.

Then he makes arguments against God being just, and that God could not be a "genocidal monster". He goes onto talking about how Jesus' death on the cross wasn't an atonement for sins, because God surely could not kill His own Son. I think he calls it "cosmic child abuse". After that, he lets his universalist flag fly high, as he relates a hypothetical story about a "Pharisaical Christian" and "Good Muslim", and that Jesus would never let a good person go to hell. He expounds, but I don't remember all of it. Finally, he sets the date of Revelation to AD 60, so that he can call it an allegorical drama set in the Roman empire leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem. I believe he ended that portion with "Jesus' second coming is an allegory for us to bring about His earthly kingdom through political means".

One of the most revealing things is in the last chapter, when he brags about his closeness to God's presence through repetitive contemplative prayer. He at last talks about being filled with love, and laughing with God at people who hold a bible thumping theology. This man needs Jesus.

What really made me mad about this book was his his method of writing. It is absolutely laden with rhetoric. He will ask a series of accusatory questions directed at the reader, and then go on long diatribes about politics, genocide, and slavery, in an attempt to shame you into his worldview. Also, Zahnd will occasionally brag about how good of a christian he is, even dedicating a couple pages to stories about how he has worn out countless bibles .

Brian Zahnd is a very crafty smooth talker, and if you don't have a solid foundation in the Bible, he could easily enslave you with his false gospel. I hear he was solid back in the day, but he sure ain't now.

 

[Dave G]

Thanks for the exhortation, brother. May God be with you and richly bless you.

I may do a full thread in the next few weeks if I get the time; I am considered an essential worker during the virus, so I'm quite busy. I'll drop a quick summary, but it has been a month since I read it, so it might not be complete.

This book is one of the first books I've ever felt the compulsion to burn (I did restrain myself ).
Zahnd props up the Puritan classic "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" as the mean, bad, no good American theology that must be replaced with his own. Next, he dismissed the OT on the grounds that the Israelites didn't have an understanding of who God was, so they misunderstood bad things happening as judgement. The man then applies John saying Jesus is "The Word" as a proof for Jesus' words only being inerrant. This sets up the rest of his poorly imagined "theology" for the rest of the book.

Then he makes arguments against God being just, and that God could not be a "genocidal monster". He goes onto talking about how Jesus' death on the cross wasn't an atonement for sins, because God surely could not kill His own Son. I think he calls it "cosmic child abuse". After that, he lets his universalist flag fly high, as he relates a hypothetical story about a "Pharisaical Christian" and "Good Muslim", and that Jesus would never let a good person go to hell. He expounds, but I don't remember all of it. Finally, he sets the date of Revelation to AD 60, so that he can call it an allegorical drama set in the Roman empire leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem. I believe he ended that portion with Jesus' second coming is an allegory for us needing to bring about His earthly kingdom.

One of the most revealing things is in the last chapter, when he brags about his closeness to God's presence through repetitive contemplative prayer. He at last talks about being filled with love, and laughing with God at people who hold a bible thumping theology. This man needs Jesus.

What really made me made about this book was his his method of writing. It is absolutely laden with rhetotic. He will ask a series of accusatory questions directed at the reader, and then go on long diatribes about politics, genecide, and slavery, in an attempt to shame you into his worldview. Also, Zahnd will occasionally brag about how good of a christian he is, even dedicating a couple pages to stories about how he has worn out countless bibles .

Brian Zahnd is a very crafty smooth talker, and if you don't have a solid foundation in the Bible, he could easily enslave you with his false gospel. I hear he was solid back in the day, but he sure ain't now.

PM ( "Start a Conversation" with ) me if you get time.

 

[tyndale1946]

Welcome to the Baptist Board Derek! ... Brother Glen

Btw... Your situation?... Let me get back to you later when all this self isolation disappears!

 

[Reynolds]

Hello Baptist Board!
My name is Derek, and I'm excited to join. I've come across this website a few times through google, and the conversations always intrigued me. Figured this would be a better place to spend my time than on social media.

Anyways, here is what I need advice on : Should I stay or go at my church?
I have struggled and prayed over it for a couple months now, and haven't gotten any clear indication on what to do next. About 6 months ago I became a born again christian after many years of false profession (and athiesm at one point). Since then, I have become painfully aware of the error and strangeness floating around my fairly liberal Nazarene church. It doesn't help that we have a local Nazarene college pumping out people who have read every popular "theology" book except the one that matters.

Here is a sampling of some of the things going on:
1. Most (not all) people hold onto a belief of "Jesus' words only"; that is, to say that they pick and choose whatever goes along with their world view. I've been called a fundamentalist more than once for saying I believe everything in the OT actually happened .
2. There has been a heavier push for tithing in recent years. Every other week they mention it in the sermon. Might have to do with the church going from 1000 members to 200 in a few short years.
3. Barely ever bring up the gospel or any challenging topic. Most of the time the sermon is a moral lesson, and they do an occasional alter call. They also employ the famous sinner's prayer.
4. Mainstream christian music, falsely called worship. Hymns are just too lame, apparently.
5. A lot of vision talk and conferences, and very little service to the body and the community.
6. The pastor for many years got brain cancer and died a few years ago. The new pastor also got brain cancer, and beat it; but now is unable to preach due to brain damage. During this time, a group of people in the church, including the pastor's wife, got into prayer healing. In a few services they loudly prayed "You will heal [pastor]! He will be healed!". Whatever happened to the sovereignty of God? Anyways, someone finally shut them down, after a ton of people left the church. The pastor recently stepped down.
7. There is a very "experiential" element to the church; so much so I though I had to have a personal "experience" from God to know I was saved. A lot of people's testimonies included some sort of appearance or revelation from God. It caused a lot of grief for me in my younger years, because I never had the sort of experiences other people said they had.
8. Hypocrites. They praise Jesus with their lips, and deny him with their actions. Lots of divorce, sexual sin, and endless streams of gossip.
9. Lots of feminism. Many of the men in the congregation let their wives wear the pants, and male membership is overall low. I'm worried our next pastor may be a woman or a couple, because there have been rumours.

Thats just some of it. And I don't want to seem like one of those people who endlessly complains and only wants to be served; I serve in whatever ways I can and love them. I'm just starving for some spiritual meat, and to serve under God fearing men. My beliefs are in line with Baptist beliefs, and there are 5 Baptist churches in town (no joke, there are 40 churches in our town of 20k; mostly mainstream and some assorted denoms). I know what I want, but I don't want to supersede God or godly wisdom, so please throw in your two cents. If you have any other questions about the situation ask away.

Dont walk, run!

 

[SGO]

What is your situation now, August 25, 2020?

 

[Marooncat79]

Welcome to the BB

Welcome to 21st century Christianity

Sadly

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes welcome! Sounds like you might be in the NE portion of the United States... and I believe you said you have kids. Kids need some scriptural structure as you also do. My brother Tyndale and some others are good reliable people. Be well!