The Fundamentals -- Torrey, Dixon and others

[agedman]

What you seem to fail to perceive is death of Christ's soul and suffering on the cross for sins is evidence of the eternal sufferring of dead souls in the immersion in the lake of fire.

Prove it.

Use Scripture to support your statements.

In what place does 5he Scripture even allude to the “death of Christ's soul and suffering on the cross for sins is evidence of the eternal sufferring of dead souls in the immersion in the lake of fire.”

 

[Van]

The Blood Atonement (Acts 20:28; Romans 3:25, 5:9; Ephesians 1:7; Hebrews 9:12-14).

Act 20:28 (NASB)
“Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Rom 3:25
whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

Rom 5:9
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Eph 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

Heb 9:12
and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, [fn]having obtained eternal redemption.

Heb 9:13
For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the [fn]cleansing of the flesh,

Heb 9:14
how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse ]your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

I am always worried when I see the word "atonement" without a definition, it might either refer to Christ's substitutionary sacrifice, or to an individual's redemption when placed spiritually by God into Christ.

Another verse also sheds light to exactly what was "purchased" by Christ's sacrifice.

2Pe 2:1 (NASB)
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

This verse makes clear Christ's death purchased more than the church (those called into His kingdom) because it also "purchased" those destined for destruction. He became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all mankind.

 

[37818]

Prove it.

Use Scripture to support your statements.

In what place does 5he Scripture even allude to the “death of Christ's soul and suffering on the cross for sins is evidence of the eternal sufferring of dead souls in the immersion in the lake of fire.”

Isaiah 53:10, ". . . when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, . . ." And again, Isaiah 53:12, ". . . he hath poured out his soul unto death: . . ." Furthermore this was accomplished while He was yet phycically alive on the cross, John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." For which Jesus said just before He physically died, John 19:30, "It is finished." So it is to be understood when He had been forsaken by His Father on the cross, His soul was dead. Remember Jesus had taught both the body and soul perish in Hell, Matthew 10:28. The translators have hid Jesus offered His soul for sin by translating the Greek for soul as life, Matthew 20:28, Mark 10:45, and John 10:11-18. The atonement was finished before He physically died.

 

[agedman]

I ask you to prove in what place does 5he Scripture even allude to the “death of Christ's soul and suffering on the cross for sins is evidence of the eternal sufferring of dead souls in the immersion in the lake of fire.”

You offered this.

Isaiah 53:10, ". . . when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, . . ."
And again, Isaiah 53:12, ". . . he hath poured out his soul unto death: . . ."

Neither place expressed any support for the statement that the "death of Christ's soul and suffering on the cross for sins is evidence of the eternal sufferring of dead souls in the immersion in the lake of fire.”

Furthermore this was accomplished while He was yet phycically alive on the cross, John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." For which Jesus said just before He physically died, John 19:30, "It is finished."

Again, this is not supporting your statement that the "death of Christ's soul and suffering on the cross for sins is evidence of the eternal sufferring of dead souls in the immersion in the lake of fire.”

So it is to be understood when He had been forsaken by His Father on the cross, His soul was dead. Remember Jesus had taught both the body and soul perish in Hell, Matthew 10:28. The translators have hid Jesus offered His soul for sin by translating the Greek for soul as life, Matthew 20:28, Mark 10:45, and John 10:11-18. The atonement was finished before He physically died.

"So it is to be UNDERSTOOD" is your best response.

Youn offered no place in this post to support the statement that the "death of Christ's soul and suffering on the cross for sins is evidence of the eternal sufferring of dead souls in the immersion in the lake of fire.”


Unless you can prove that statement accurate by the Scriptures, it remains pure emotional puffery.

 

[Yeshua1]

I ask you to prove in what place does 5he Scripture even allude to the “death of Christ's soul and suffering on the cross for sins is evidence of the eternal sufferring of dead souls in the immersion in the lake of fire.”

You offered this.



Neither place expressed any support for the statement that the "death of Christ's soul and suffering on the cross for sins is evidence of the eternal sufferring of dead souls in the immersion in the lake of fire.”




Again, this is not supporting your statement that the "death of Christ's soul and suffering on the cross for sins is evidence of the eternal sufferring of dead souls in the immersion in the lake of fire.”



"So it is to be UNDERSTOOD" is your best response.

Youn offered no place in this post to support the statement that the "death of Christ's soul and suffering on the cross for sins is evidence of the eternal sufferring of dead souls in the immersion in the lake of fire.”


Unless you can prove that statement accurate by the Scriptures, it remains pure emotional puffery.

Jesus experienced same separation as lost sinners judged for sins will from God the Father!

 

[evenifigoalone]

The five fundamentals,

1. The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:1; John 20:28; Hebrews 1:8-9).
2. The Virgin Birth (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23; Luke 1:27).
3. The Blood Atonement (Acts 20:28; Romans 3:25, 5:9; Ephesians 1:7; Hebrews 9:12-14).
4. The Bodily Resurrection (Luke 24:36-46; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, 15:14-15).
5. The inerrancy of the scriptures themselves (Psalms 12:6-7; Romans 15:4; 2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20).

I thought these were the basic definitions of fundamentalism. Or, is the The Fundamentals a more in-depth writing?

 

[Jerome]

Yes, the OP is referencing the monumental multi-volume work The Fundamentals, not one of the several simplistic 'Five Points of Fundamentalism' contrivances. Unfortunately a couple of early uninformed posts sent this thread far afield.

The Fundamentals - Wikipedia

"The Fundamentals: A Testimony To The Truth (generally referred to simply as The Fundamentals) is a set of ninety essays published between 1910 and 1915....editors: A. C. Dixon, Louis Meyer, and R. A. Torrey....It is widely considered to be the foundation of modern Christian fundamentalism."

 

[Yeshua1]

I thought these were the basic definitions of fundamentalism. Or, is the The Fundamentals a more in-depth writing?

Its was a multi volume set of books, that went into detail each major point of Doctrine!

 

[evenifigoalone]

I'll have to check it out

Sent from my SM-J737T1 using Tapatalk

 

[Yeshua1]

I'll have to check it out

Sent from my SM-J737T1 using Tapatalk

https://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Testimony-Truth-R-Torrey/dp/0801012643

 

[agedman]

Jesus experienced same separation as lost sinners judged for sins will from God the Father!

Can you find Scripture support for this thinking?

At what point was God removed from the atonement sacrifice in rejection, judging, separating?

Certainly, for such to be a key aspect of the crucifixion, then it would be demonstrated in the types, the sacred services, somewhere in the OT and discussed multiple times by the letter writers of the NT.

With out such support, your statement has no biblical foundation.

 

[Yeshua1]

Can you find Scripture support for this thinking?

At what point was God removed from the atonement sacrifice in rejection, judging, separating?

Certainly, for such to be a key aspect of the crucifixion, then it would be demonstrated in the types, the sacred services, somewhere in the OT and discussed at Ctoss!multiple times by the letter writers of the NT.

With out such support, your statement has no biblical foundation.

Jesus was feeling it while crying out on that Cross!

 

[agedman]

Jesus was feeling it while crying out on that Cross!

No biblical evidence.

Such alignment is pure speculation and not Biblically supportable yet by your posts.

 

[Yeshua1]

No biblical evidence.

Such alignment is pure speculation and not Biblically supportable yet by your posts.

Reading thru Berkhof today, up to page 390,and so far he gives excellent defense of the Pst position!

 

[agedman]

Reading thru Berkhof today, up to page 390,and so far he gives excellent defense of the Pst position!

Problem is that you haven’t.

 

[Yeshua1]

Problem is that you haven’t.

The main problem for your understanding is that you seem to think that the Father is just for no purpose unloading wrath upon Jesus, that Jesus is innocent and God is somehow doing a child abuse here... When Jesus took on our sins, he became the sin bearer, and in sight of the Father just as if we were hanging there being judgent for our sins!
Judgement involves wrath and separation from God, and that is what willingly experienced for our sake!

 

[agedman]

The main problem for your understanding is that you seem to think that the Father is just for no purpose unloading wrath upon Jesus, that Jesus is innocent and God is somehow doing a child abuse here... When Jesus took on our sins, he became the sin bearer, and in sight of the Father just as if we were hanging there being judgent for our sins!
Judgement involves wrath and separation from God, and that is what willingly experienced for our sake!

No, my problem is the assumption without ANY Scriptural support that wrath was poured out upon the Son by the Father.

The shedding of blood brought forgiveness of sin, not the cross.

The purpose of the cross was the instrument of death, just as the tomb was the instrument of resurrection.

Do not the Scriptures state that Christ remained sinless while even bearing our sin?

There was no divine judgment to bring upon the Son by God.

Look at the scene from heaven’s perspective given in the revelation.

Look upon the thoughts revealed in psalm 22.

Neither place presents the Father pouring out wrath upon the Son.

Look at when God responded in wrath in the tabernacle/temple. It was never toward the sacrifice but toward one offering the sacrifice from an impure heart.

Search the Scriptures. They do not support the thinking that God poured His wrath out upon the Son, ever!

 

[Yeshua1]

No, my problem is the assumption without ANY Scriptural support that wrath was poured out upon the Son by the Father.

The shedding of blood brought forgiveness of sin, not the cross.

The purpose of the cross was the instrument of death, just as the tomb was the instrument of resurrection.

Do not the Scriptures state that Christ remained sinless while even bearing our sin?

There was no divine judgment to bring upon the Son by God.

Look at the scene from heaven’s perspective given in the revelation.

Look upon the thoughts revealed in psalm 22.

Neither place presents the Father pouring out wrath upon the Son.

Look at when God responded in wrath in the tabernacle/temple. It was never toward the sacrifice but toward one offering the sacrifice from an impure heart.

Search the Scriptures. They do not support the thinking that God poured His wrath out upon the Son, ever!

Jesus death propitiated/appeased wrath of God towards sin and the sinner, correct?

 

[37818]

I ask you to prove in what place does 5he Scripture even allude to the “death of Christ's soul and suffering on the cross for sins is evidence of the eternal sufferring of dead souls in the immersion in the lake of fire.”

Neither place expressed any support for the statement that the "death of Christ's soul and suffering on the cross for sins is evidence of the eternal sufferring of dead souls in the immersion in the lake of fire.”

Again, this is not supporting your statement that the "death of Christ's soul and suffering on the cross for sins is evidence of the eternal sufferring of dead souls in the immersion in the lake of fire.”

"So it is to be UNDERSTOOD" is your best response.

Youn offered no place in this post to support the statement that the "death of Christ's soul and suffering on the cross for sins is evidence of the eternal sufferring of dead souls in the immersion in the lake of fire.”


Unless you can prove that statement accurate by the Scriptures, it remains pure emotional puffery.

I gave the evidence. You deny the evidence is evidence.

Perchance am I to understand you believe in annihilationism?

 

[37818]

Do not the Scriptures state that Christ remained sinless while even bearing our sin?

Yes.