Begotten of the Father before all ages.

[Yeshua1]

None of those verses prove Jesus was born before he was born. Jesus Christ was only known as The Word as presented in the OT. However we do know that the body of the crucified Christ appeared at times to Abraham. Jesus told his disciples, "before Abraham was, I am." It was the post crucified body that ate and talked with Abraham in person. Abraham had faith in the resurrection of Jesus Himself. That is why Abraham obeyed in the task of sacrificing Isaac. Abraham knew the risen Christ in the risen body, and knew that if Isaac died, God would also raise Isaac from the dead, just like God raised Jesus from the dead.

Abraham told Isaac that God would provide Himself as the sacrifice. Abraham did not tell Isaac that Isaac would die, and God would bring him back to life. So if Abraham knew of the resurrection did he get that from pagan activity? No! The only way Abraham had proof of a bodily resurrection was to actually know that Jesus had died and was resurrected. That would not be possible if a pre-incarnate body appeared to Abraham. It was only possible when the Post glorified body having the nail prints and sword wound in the side appeared to Abraham.

Nope, that OT appearance was as the Angel of Yahweh, as he was "just" God the Son appearing in OT, as Him became incarnated and assumed Human flesh and form as Jesus in NT!

 

[Yeshua1]

Thanks for your reply. I can't agree with your dismissal of Hebrews 13:8 and Psalms 2:7. but I need to come back at a later stage when I have considered a little more fully.
For now, may I ask: leaving aside for the moment, the term 'begotten,' do you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ was the Son of God before His incarnation?

In his deity, but His humanity started when conceived and incarnated!
Think he has issue with begotten, as to him implies being created being?

 

[Yeshua1]

Impossible. Sonship only happened once. Jesus only died once. But in eternity it happened before time began, in the beginning. The OT veiled that truth, and even Paul in Ephesians 3 pointed it out.

It was not until the last century and the concept of moving back and forth through time, that humans could even acknowledge such a thing. Eternity is not a long period of time. There is no time at all, because God does not change. That is what it means when it says, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. After Jesus Christ completed the Atonement, Jesus Christ stepped out of time, and could appear any where in time. That is the mystery that has only now been revealed as a truth.

When God the Son appeared to peopled in Ot as pre Incarnate Christ, was always as the Angel of the Lord!

 

[37818]

The sons of God were the humans, . . .

In Job 38:4-7? Prove this from the book Job.

 

[37818]

the Son was eternally begotten by the father, . . .

Nonsense.

 

[Yeshua1]

Nonsense.

So you disagree with the Creeds then?

 

[Van]

All that seems to be stretching and forcing the point, especially when the leaps from a "good kind" of man to a necessary "nobleman" or from some obscure "connected kind" to a necessary "relative" seem more a matter of begging the question merely to make μονογενης take a particular emphasis.

It is far simpler to understand ευγενής as meaning "well-born" (hence a nobleman), and συγγενής as "together born" (hence a relative), while leaving μόνογενης as "only begotten" as per the creeds.

I look at it the opposite way, with your view "stretching and forcing" the point.

The lexicon I looked at indicated eugenes had two meanings, to be well born, and to be noble minded. You picked one meaning which fits your agenda, and I picked the other, also fitting my agenda. "Good kind" of man is therefore not a stretch.

Similarly the prefix "syn" means with or together with or in union with so "connected" does not seem "obscure" as a meaning for syggenes.

In summary, genos refers to being related, as from the same bloodline or family origin, as in the same kind of fish. To ignore "same kind" or good kind or unique kind seems questionable from my side of the street.

 

[Van]

Here are five of the usages of "genos" rendered variously as "nation" (twice) "country," and "born" (twice). All these usages have been rendered "native" to convey common origin.

Mark 7:26 - The woman was a Greek, a native of Syrophenician, and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.

Act 4:36 - And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, a native of Cyprus,

Act 18:2 - And found a certain Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome and came unto them.

Act 18:24 - And a certain Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

Galatians 1:14 - And profited in the Jews' religion above many of my native contemporaries, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

 

[timtofly]

In Job 38:4-7? Prove this from the book Job.

Verse 7: the stars were the created angels, the sons of God were the image of God Genesis 1:27. The stars (angels) were placed in the sky on day 4. The Sons of God (humanity) were created on day 6.

 

[percho]

All that seems to be stretching and forcing the point, especially when the leaps from a "good kind" of man to a necessary "nobleman" or from some obscure "connected kind" to a necessary "relative" seem more a matter of begging the question merely to make μονογενης take a particular emphasis.

It is far simpler to understand ευγενής as meaning "well-born" (hence a nobleman), and συγγενής as "together born" (hence a relative), while leaving μόνογενης as "only begotten" as per the creeds.

Well, together, only......What the heck does, born, mean? Especially if you follow born with the word son.

I know all love, advent.

τὸ γὰρ ἐν αὐτῇ γεννηθὲν ἐκ πνεύματός ἐστιν ἁγίου - τέξεται δὲ υἱὸν καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦν·
The for in her being generated out* of* Spirit* is holy - She shall being forth yet son and you shall be calling the name of him Jesus

Out of Spirit? What Spirit?
Is it, out of. Spirit the God spoken of here in John 4:24 πνεῦμα ὁ θεός καὶ τοὺς προσκυνοῦντας αὐτὸν ἐν πνεύματι καὶ ἀληθείᾳ δεῖ προσκυνεῖν who is said to be the Father in verse 23?

 

[37818]

Eternally begotten of/by the father means not created in time, that denotes the deity of Jesus!

That remains a nonsense argument. A special pleading at best. And with zero Biblical support.

 

[37818]

So you disagree with the Creeds then?

Where any statement of faith is CONTRARY to the written word of God. In this case the false notion the Son who is YHWH is eternally "begotten" from the Father who is YHWH. This is nonsense if you really believe the Persons of the Trinity are the one and the same YHWH.

 

[37818]

Verse 7: the stars were the created angels, the sons of God were the image of God Genesis 1:27. The stars (angels) were placed in the sky on day 4. The Sons of God (humanity) were created on day 6.

That sounds like crazy talk. The points of light in Genesis 1:16 are not angels. I am ok with the notion the sons of God are human souls. But I would really like some kind of evidence from book of Job that would rule out the understanding of them being angels and not being humans.

 

[Van]

Here are five more of the usages of genos rendered variously as "kind, kindred, stock (twice) and countrymen. These usages have been rendered "kind" (twice), relatives, and linage (twice). Always a commonality is in view.

Matthew 13:47 - Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

Act 4:6 - And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the relatives of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem.

Act 13:26 - Men and brethren, children of the linage of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

2Co 11:26 - I have been on journeys many times, in dangers from rivers, in dangers from robbers, in dangers from my own kind, in dangers from Gentiles, in dangers in the city, in dangers in the wilderness, in dangers at sea, in dangers from false brothers,

Philippians 3:5 - Circumcised the eighth day, of the linage of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

 

[timtofly]

That sounds like crazy talk. The points of light in Genesis 1:16 are not angels. I am ok with the notion the sons of God are human souls. But I would really like some kind of evidence from book of Job that would rule out the understanding of them being angels and not being humans.

No the stars are angels, as there are no stars. It is crazy talk because you accept Satan's deception that stars are round bodies of energy. That is virtual reality, a movie being played in your mind. The book of Revelation and Job if mentioned use the term angel to show a lot of physical attributes we see as just virtual. The four angels at the 4 corners are God's mechanism of ocean currents and the prevailing winds. That is not some mythological explanation. That is reality, and Satan wants you to think it is just how nature works, without a God in control at all.

Job is the key to Satan's current deception. Just like Satan requested God to allow him to sift Job, to show Job's righteousness was for nought. So God has allowed Satan to deceive the whole world, even the righteous people in the world, for the last 2500 years.

 

[Van]

Here are four more usages of genos, rendered as "offspring" and "generation." Generation has been rendered "kind" to more consistently translate the same meaning in the same or similar way.

Act 17:28 - For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Act 17:29 - Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

1Peter 2:9 - But ye are a chosen kind, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Revelation 22:16 - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

And again we see the common thread of relationship or connection.

 

[37818]

No the stars are angels, as there are no stars. It is crazy talk because you accept Satan's deception that stars are round bodies of energy.

I need to ask you, if you were to explain to someone who is not yet a Christian how to know for sure about having salvation that cannot be lost, what would you explain?

 

[Van]

Here are the last of the usages of genos, with the meaning either kind (s) or relatives.

Mark 9:29
And He said to them, “This kind cannot come out by anything but prayer.”

Act 7:13
“On the second visit Joseph's relatives became known to Pharaoh.

1Corinthians 12:10
and to another kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.

1Corinthians 12:28
... kinds of tongues.

1Corinthians 14:10
There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning.

In summary a review of most of the usages of genos indicates a commonality, rather than birth.

 

[timtofly]

I need to ask you, if you were to explain to someone who is not yet a Christian how to know for sure about having salvation that cannot be lost, what would you explain?

Are they tired of carrying the burden that seems forever laid upon them? If the burden can be lost, there is no need of freedom from the burden being lost. One can always pile labor onto themselves, workaholics. Work can be just as addictive as any other addiction. If sin is a burden, then perhaps morality can be introduced. It is the burden of life that most people want relief from. Work was the punishment given to Adam for his disobedience. Work was passed on to all humanity along with sin as the result of doing both good and bad. Some people may relate to doctrine and theology, but all relate to having to work, and the tremendous burden life can be.

 

[37818]

Are they tired of carrying the burden that seems forever laid upon them? If the burden can be lost, there is no need of freedom from the burden being lost. One can always pile labor onto themselves, workaholics. Work can be just as addictive as any other addiction. If sin is a burden, then perhaps morality can be introduced. It is the burden of life that most people want relief from. Work was the punishment given to Adam for his disobedience. Work was passed on to all humanity along with sin as the result of doing both good and bad. Some people may relate to doctrine and theology, but all relate to having to work, and the tremendous burden life can be.

Again, if you were to explain to someone who is not yet a Christian how to know for sure about having salvation that cannot be lost, what would you explain?