WHAT ARE SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS?

Steven_15 · May 10, 2020

Particular said: ↑

Wow, talk about ignoring the entire context of the letter to the Hebrews and the faith chapter. You have provided to us a perfect example of a person with an agenda who takes a sentence in the Bible out of context as proof that his agenda has legitimacy. It is an utter waste of energy to argue your foolishness.
Instead, let us observe the whole of Hebrews to see how your sentence fits with what God is saying through the writer. If you refuse to look at God's word in context then there is nothing to discuss.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

Hebrews 11:1-40 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore. These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau. By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones. By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them. By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned. By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies. And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
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You have given example of a foolish person who quotes an entire chapter without stating whether he considers healing as a spiritual or material blessing.

Steven_15 · May 10, 2020

37818 said: ↑

The newbirth through faith in the gospel is a miracle. Romans 1:16, Romans 8:16.
Click to expand...

So healing is spiritual or material/worldly?

Steven_15 · May 10, 2020

Dave Gilbert said: ↑

I don't know...
Why would anyone who knows where healing comes from, consider it to be evil just because God used a man to do it?
But to start with, I'm a "cessationist" in the sense that I do not believe that the sign gifts of an apostle are active today.

For example:

I do not believe that the Gospel needs to be validated by miracles any longer, because I see the need for that validation being done away with.
We now have the written word, so what later became the written word was once the spoken word by the Lord and His prophets...it is right in front of us, preserved by Him for those who would hear it and believe it.

I also do not view healing as worldly or material in the sense that using a man to put me on to something the Lord has either made or allowed to be "discovered" is wrong or a sin, but I do acknowledge Him first and to seek His will for my healing.
When I need healing, I trust the Lord for it.

That includes trusting Him when I go to a doctor...

I am trusting Him to put me in capable hands when I need surgery to correct muscle tears and the like, for example.
I trust Him to guide those hands and to give me the healing that I need from Him, not men.
Barring that, I learn to live with my infirmities until such time as He gives me healing.

All healing I believe, comes from God.
However, God provides such healing not only as miracles, but in the environment around us and in people that He uses for such.

Another example:

Since the Lord made men aware of such things as Penicillin, these things that would not normally be known can be used to fight illnesses.
Therefore, everything good is from God ( John 3:27, James 1:17 ), and the goodness of God leads men to repentance, even though the Bible teaches that men will not repent apart from His grace and mercy ( Acts of the Apostles 5:31, Acts of the Apostles 11:18, Romans 1, Romans 3, John 3:19-20, 2 Timothy 2:25 ).

So, all men enjoy blessings that come from God, who is Spirit.
He makes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust, and provides even the animals their food.
See Job, the Psalms, the Proverbs and the Gospels, as well as the prophets like Isaiah and Jeremiah.
Everything the Scriptures say is inspired and comes from Him, so anything it says about where true good comes from, can be trusted to be 100% reliable and to come from Someone who cannot lie.

His children enjoy even more in the way of blessings...
His eternal favor and salvation, among others.

We have the privilege to come boldly ( and with confidence ) to His throne of grace and to seek help in time of need ( Hebrews 4:12-16 ), because of the work of His Son on our behalf.
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So you believe healing of the physical body to be given in Christ's atonement? Or do you believe medical doctor is your messiah/mediator for physical healing from God?

Dave G · May 11, 2020

Steven_15 said: ↑

So you believe healing of the physical body to be given in Christ's atonement? Or do you believe medical doctor is your messiah/mediator for physical healing from God?
Click to expand...

Neither.

The atonement was for sin, and medical doctors are merely men.
Rather, I believe the Psalms and many other promises to those that the Lord has made righteous by the blood of His Son.

Where did you get the idea that I believed either of those two?

Steven_15 · May 11, 2020

Dave Gilbert said: ↑

Neither.

The atonement was for sin, and medical doctors are merely men.
Rather, I believe the Psalms and many other promises to those that the Lord has made righteous by the blood of His Son.

Where did you get the idea that I believed either of those two?
Click to expand...

If your healing doesn't come from God through faith in Christ's atonement which denotes His merits, does your healing come from God through faith in your merits (good deeds)?

Isaiah 53 talks of Christ's atonement not only for the soul of His elect but also for the physical healing of His elect according to Isaiah 53:4.

Steven_15 · May 11, 2020

Particular said: ↑

Wow, talk about ignoring the entire context of the letter to the Hebrews and the faith chapter. You have provided to us a perfect example of a person with an agenda who takes a sentence in the Bible out of context as proof that his agenda has legitimacy. It is an utter waste of energy to argue your foolishness.
Instead, let us observe the whole of Hebrews to see how your sentence fits with what God is saying through the writer. If you refuse to look at God's word in context then there is nothing to discuss.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

Hebrews 11:1-40 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore. These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau. By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones. By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them. By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned. By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies. And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
Click to expand...

Some of the people of God listed in Hebrews 11 received blessings and some chose to suffer expecting to be blessed at the resurrection. But both the blessings and sufferings were received through faith in the truth that God blesses those who seek Him (Hebrews 11:6). Both groups never denied this faith.

Similarly, faith in Christ's atonement fulfils the desires like either be healed or remain sick expecting healing after resurrection. But if either of the desire is fulfilled apart from faith in Christ's atonement to heal, God is not pleased.

Many use Hebrews 11 to justify suffering but don't see the blessings that were also received by faith. Moreover they deny faith through which people are blessed as they don't see the blessings that were received through faith in Hebrews 11. Why? It is because they wrongly think sufferings please God. But it is faith which pleases God. They don't realise if God was pleased by sufferings, He would have created Adam/Eve with sufferings!

Yeshua1 · May 11, 2020

Steven_15 said: ↑

Why are you lusting & avoiding real life situations by seeking medical doctor for healing?

Why are you lusting & avoiding real life situations by not giving all your goods & home to the poor when you who trust in your works ought to give your life for others according to 1 John 3:16?
Click to expand...

if the Lord required me to do such, would do just that!

Yeshua1 · May 11, 2020

Steven_15 said: ↑

The question is:
Why do cessationists who consider healing as material/worldly seek medical doctor for healing?
Click to expand...

God gave them to us for healing purposes!

Yeshua1 · May 11, 2020

Steven_15 said: ↑

So didn't you counter unbiblical thoughts earlier? Does charity mean refraining from countering unbiblical thoughts?
Click to expand...

Your theology. of the WoF are the unbiblcal thoughts!

Yeshua1 · May 11, 2020

37818 said: ↑

The newbirth through faith in the gospel is a miracle. Romans 1:16, Romans 8:16.
Click to expand...

The Holy Spirit can convict and reprove without needing signs and wonders!

Yeshua1 · May 11, 2020

Particular said: ↑

Wow, talk about ignoring the entire context of the letter to the Hebrews and the faith chapter. You have provided to us a perfect example of a person with an agenda who takes a sentence in the Bible out of context as proof that his agenda has legitimacy. It is an utter waste of energy to argue your foolishness.
Instead, let us observe the whole of Hebrews to see how your sentence fits with what God is saying through the writer. If you refuse to look at God's word in context then there is nothing to discuss.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

Hebrews 11:1-40 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore. These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau. By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones. By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them. By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned. By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies. And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
Click to expand...

WoF teach the heresy that God needed and used faith to create the Universe, so we can do the very same things, as we are exact copies of Him"little gods", some like Hagin even see us as much an incarnation of God as Jesus was!

Yeshua1 · May 11, 2020

Steven_15 said: ↑

If your healing doesn't come from God through faith in Christ's atonement which denotes His merits, does your healing come from God through faith in your merits (good deeds)?

Isaiah 53 talks of Christ's atonement not only for the soul of His elect but also for the physical healing of His elect according to Isaiah 53:4.
Click to expand...

All physical healing is promised to us in the resurrection, not here and now!

Yeshua1 · May 11, 2020

Steven_15 said: ↑

Some of the people of God listed in Hebrews 11 received blessings and some chose to suffer expecting to be blessed at the resurrection. But both the blessings and sufferings were received through faith in the truth that God blesses those who seek Him (Hebrews 11:6). Both groups never denied this faith.

Similarly, faith in Christ's atonement fulfils the desires like either be healed or remain sick expecting healing after resurrection. But if either of the desire is fulfilled apart from faith in Christ's atonement to heal, God is not pleased.

Many use Hebrews 11 to justify suffering but don't see the blessings that were also received by faith. Moreover they deny faith through which people are blessed as they don't see the blessings that were received through faith in Hebrews 11. Why? It is because they wrongly think sufferings please God. But it is faith which pleases God. They don't realise if God was pleased by sufferings, He would have created Adam/Eve with sufferings!
Click to expand...

Faith is not a force, as God is not our cosmic bell boy that obeys our positive confessions and spoken words!

Yeshua1 · May 11, 2020

Steven_15 said: ↑

You have given example of a foolish person who quotes an entire chapter without stating whether he considers healing as a spiritual or material blessing.
Click to expand...

God created the Universe period, he did not use faith, as its by faith we realise God is Creators, not that he used faith in creation!

Yeshua1 · May 11, 2020

Steven_15 said: ↑

So you believe healing of the physical body to be given in Christ's atonement? Or do you believe medical doctor is your messiah/mediator for physical healing from God?
Click to expand...

We are promised all spiritual blessings right here and now, not all heath and wealth blessings right here and now!

37818 · May 11, 2020

Yeshua1 said: ↑

The Holy Spirit can convict and reprove without needing signs and wonders!
Click to expand...

The newbirth is miracle, 1 Corinthians 12:10, δυναμεων; Romans 1:16, δυναμις.

Dave G · May 11, 2020

Steven_15 said: ↑

If your healing doesn't come from God through faith in Christ's atonement which denotes His merits, does your healing come from God through faith in your merits (good deeds)?
Click to expand...

No.
I have no merit except God grant me it.

Steven_15 · May 11, 2020

Yeshua1 said: ↑

if the Lord required me to do such, would do just that!
Click to expand...

Don't be a hypocrite by judging others as lusting when they seek healing,
when you lust by seeking medical doctor for healing?

Don't be a hypocrite by judging others as lusting when they have wealth,
when you lust by seeking & clinging on to your wealth by not selling them and giving them to the poor.

You works-truster, the Lord has already required you to do even more by giving your life according to 1John3:16. So don't sit as a hypocrite expecting the Lord to require you to do so while you take the liberty to judge others!

Steven_15 · May 11, 2020

Dave Gilbert said: ↑

No.
I have no merit except God grant me it.
Click to expand...

How does God grant merit for you to be healed except through Christ's atonement as stated in Isaiah 53:4?

Steven_15 · May 11, 2020

Yeshua1 said: ↑

We are promised all spiritual blessings right here and now, not all heath and wealth blessings right here and now!
Click to expand...

So you have reserved the right to define how much wealth and health a christian should have to suit your convenience, you hypocrite?

WHAT ARE SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS?

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