Featured Well Said - Arminians listen-up!

Was a Sunday. The first day of a week. Mark 16:1,". . . And when the sabbath was past, . . ." Just a friendly off topic note.

 

The really funny thing is Spurgeon the great Calvinist lied when he said that freewill had been disproven Bragging that only Calvinism is the right theology. I say bunk.
2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
I realize you may not know what the word willing means so here is it's definition.
Willing
WILLING, ppr.
1. Determining; resolving; desiring.
2. Disposing of by will.
WILLING, a.
1. Free to do or grant; having the mind inclined; disposed; not averse. Let every man give, who is able and willing.
2. Pleased; desirous.
Felix, willing to show the Jews a pleasure. Acts 24.
3. Ready; prompt.
He stoopd with weary wings and willing feet.
4. Chosen; received of choice or without reluctance; as, to be held in willing chains.
5. Spontaneous.
No spouts of blood run wiling from a tree.
6. Consenting.

MB

 

Scripture does not lie, MB, and freewill has not been disproven.
The affect that our will has on the purpose and grace of God with regard to salvation, has been put into its proper place.

Romans 3:10-18 is still the truth, even though many ( especially nowadays ) seem to doubt what is written.
1 Corinthians 1:18 is still the truth, even though many do not see the significance of what is written.

Men hating Jesus Christ by default, because of our very natures, has been proven by many passages ( John 15:18, Proverbs 29:27, Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:9, John 7:7, 1 John 3:1, 1 John 3:13 ).
Man being sinners at birth has also been proven by the word of God ( Psalms 58:3 ).

I'm still looking at Scripture, MB.
Not what John Calvin taught.

There is no bragging that I am correct, and all others are incorrect...
or that John Calvin was correct, and John Wesley was not.

To me, anything Calvin may have taught, as well as anything that William Tyndale ( who wrote about much of what is called "sovereign grace" some 8 years before Calvin ever reportedly believed on Christ ) wrote and taught, takes a back seat to the Scriptures and always will.

 

Let's take a look at the verse you've put forth...

Incidentally, I see this verse being used to support the position that, when it comes to reconciling ourselves to God, man's will is not the absolutely rebellious and hard-hearted shambles that the Lord Himself says that it is ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20, Ephesians 4:17-19 and many of the Psalms )...
Please correct me if I am wrong.

Here is the verse you've listed:
" For if there be first a willing mind, [it is] accepted according to that a man hath, [and] not according to that he hath not." ( 2 Corinthians 8:12 ).

On the surface I have to admit that, without any of the context around the verse established, it does indeed appear that man must have a willing mind, and that that willing mind is accepted with God. But let's see what happens when the context of the passage is developed, by bringing in more of the text surrounding the one thing that God has to say here:

In 2 Corinthians 8:1-9, Paul is speaking to the Corinthians about the grace that has come to the churches of Macedonia;
How that in a great trial of afflictions the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty, abounded ( grew more and more ) unto the riches of their liberality...
In other words, despite their suffering for Christ, they were giving to the necessities of their fellow believers around them.
Paul is therefore commending them for their willingness to act in abundance towards their fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.


Now let's widen the text around it for a better look at what you've posted:

" And herein I give [my] advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.
11 Now therefore perform the doing [of it]; that as [there was] a readiness to will, so [there may be] a performance also out of that which ye have.
12 For if there be first a willing mind, [it is] accepted according to that a man hath, [and] not according to that he hath not.
13 For [I mean] not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
14 but by an equality, [that] now at this time your abundance [may be a supply] for their want, that their abundance also may be [a supply] for your want: that there may be equality:
15 as it is written, He that [had gathered] much had nothing over; and he that [had gathered] little had no lack." ( 2 Corinthians 8:10-15 ).

I've underlined and highlighted sections that I think are important and should be emphasized.


So, here I see that the subject is first, believers, and second, their willingness to act in abundance to meet the needs of their brothers and sisters in Christ of other churches in addition to themselves.
Why?
So that the ones who had much, should meet the needs of those who had little, that they all might have enough.
In their grace, the churches of Macedonia were giving of themselves, willingly, so that their brothers and sisters both among them and in other churches might have enough.

Do you not see this when you read the chapter beginning with verse 1?
I'm not sure why, as to me, it really is developed right on the page, and needs no interpretation.

If there be first a willing mind among believers towards giving from the heart, it is accepted according to what that man or woman has, and not according to what they do not have.
To me, this leads into what 2 Corinthians 9 is developing...

" Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. " ( 2 Corinthians 9:7 )



Note:

The people being spoken of in this passage were already believers in Christ.
As in other threads regarding this subject, their will had nothing to do with them being born again, as Psalms 65:4, John 1:13, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 9:14-18 and James 1:18 so clearly teach.

As believers, God has made us accepted in the beloved ( Ephesians 1:6 )...
We don't make ourselves accepted "in Christ" by a work of our own flesh or our own will.

God is the one who does all the work in the granting of eternal life;
We don't co-operate with His grace in gaining His favor.

 

Agreed.

But the believers being spoken of in 2 Corinthians 8:1-15 were those who were described as willing, by consent, to distribute their wealth among those who were poor in this world's goods.
They abounded in their liberality willingly, towards them who had little... that the body of Christ might have enough.
As I see it, that is the essence of what many today call a "love offering".

Based on what is declared in Romans 8, the carnal mind that is at natural enmity with God was now ( in the lives of these believers, who had been born from above ) changed to not be at enmity ( at odds ) with God.
Therefore, their will was to do the work of God and to love the people of God, instead of being against it...

To show love to their fellow man ( especially their brothers and sisters in Christ ) instead of hating them.


MB, I encourage you to look at your usage of verses, and see that their context warrants it.
If we take something out of context, it can and often does give us an inaccurate view of what the text, as a whole, is stating.
I can tell you that for many years, I too, did this;

But over the years since the Lord called me by His grace, my constant study of His precious word ( and my willingness to heed both 1 Peter 2:2 and 2 Timothy 2:15 ) has gradually enabled me to look at everything contextually, and plug the verses back in to where they rightfully belong.


I wish you well, sir, as always, and may He bless you richly in your studies.

 

Was Charles so uneducated, he did not know Arminian = Calvinist?

Which always made me wonder, "Why was this forum named Calvinist vs. Arminian - especially since no one wants to claim to be either?"

I don't have a will. I plan to have the government figure out where my belongings should go. I always wonder about people who can't ever speak specifically, even when they have an entire week to write it down.

Does he believe in choices? God said he gave humans choices in the Bible. Maybe Charles thought that God was lying?

Really!?! I don't know of anyone who believes they are entirely free. Can you point out this person? Maybe they treat the word entirely like the "Calvinists" treat the words "the world"?

Sounds like a very strange wording - like a Calvinist wording. Oh wait, Charles did say he was talking about Arminians. They wording now makes sense.

Throughout the Bible, God and Jesus present choices. Charles seems to indicate that God is deceitful and that these choices God and Jesus present are merely mirages and not choices at all.

Now this is very curious. Makes me wonder what he actually believed free-will was.

Earlier on this forum I made the mistake in believing that people used the common definition for some of these words.

Truly interesting. He admits he is relying human philosophy and human religion. He announces himself to be an anti-Christ. Did he do this on purpose? A serial-killer begging to be caught? Or did he just make a mistake?

Now he is heading into Gnosticism. He is saying the "Christians" are identified by what secret knowledge or understanding they possess.

I'm really sad you presented this because it makes Charles seem demonic in an insidious way.

 

I realize that your post was directed at Wesley, but I'd like to make a few replies if I may:

Because "Arminians" tend to view anything that deals with God choosing a people for Himself, irrespective of man's choice, as "Calvinism" and they also believe that it mis-characterizes the God of the Bible...who is loving towards all men in their eyes.

"Calvinists" tend to view anything that deals with God's choice of that people being dependent upon something a man does, as "Arminianism" and they believe that it erroneously simplifies the God of the Bible...who is gracious towards all men in this life, but is truly loving only towards His own children eternally.


I could also characterize the sides as "God's Will" versus "Man's Will",
Or " Faith in God's works alone" versus "Faith in Man's works plus God's works".

Those that put God at the very top and see Scripture teaching that every facet of salvation is sponsored by God ( leaving that person nothing to stand on except the Lord's efforts towards them ), are known as "Calvinists".
Those that put God near the top and see Scripture teaching that almost every facet of salvation is sponsored by God ( leaving that person something other than God's efforts to stand on ), are known as "Arminians".

I think you already know these things, Marty...
But for those who are new to this subject, that is to whom I am speaking when I address your post.

 

I use the Bible's definition, instead of the "common" definitions and recognize that just because the vast majority of men use a term one way, does not mean that those who believe the Bible have to use those same terms the way the world does.

I'm not absolutely sure sure what Charles Spurgeon used, as he's not here to ask...but to me he appears to be using the Bible's definitions as well.

Is that what you see in Luther's quote?
I didn't.

Here's what Luther said:
"If any man doth ascribe aught of salvation, even the very least, to the free-will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright."

Here it is paraphrased in plain English:
" If any man attributes anything of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knows nothing of grace and has not learned Jesus Christ correctly".

Spurgeon did?
No, he did not.

Do you know anywhere that Spurgeon's Gospel preaching was not in accord with John 6, Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Romans 8, Romans 9, Ephesians 1, 2 Thessalonians 2 and Psalms 65:4 for example?

I'm not aware of it.

What are you on about here, Marty?

 

Not in the least.

The words on the pages of the Bible declare that there are a group of people that know and understand God's word when they hear it, and there are a group that, no matter how much they try, they will never come to that understanding:

" But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;" ( 2 Peter 2:12 ).
False teachers, as natural brute beasts made to be taken and destroyed, speak badly of things they do not understand about the Bible.

" For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith " ( 2 Timothy 3:6-8 )

Paul tells Timothy that they are of the sort that leads away foolish people who are laden with sins and led away with their lusts.
They are ever-learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
They resist the truth, as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses when he stood before Pharoah.

Finally, there is a group of people who think that the preaching of the cross is foolishness, and there is a group of people who believe it to be the power of God:

" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).
Them that perish think the Gospel is foolishness, while them that are saved do not.


So, to one the truths of God's word are "gnosticism", and to others is it the grace, power, mercy and wisdom of God ( 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 ).

Have you believed the preaching of the cross, Marty?
Then know that you are one of the ones who is a "gnostic" to those who do not believe it.

There are millions that look at Christians and say, " I don't know how you can believe that fairy-tale stuff"...
To them, we are "gnostics" because they don't understand it.

 

They believe and understand, by faith, the words of their Saviour.
The ones He gave the Holy Spirit to, in order to understand and know the truth:

Please see John 16:13, 1 Corinthians 2:1-16, 1 John 2:20-27.

Strange...

I don't see Charles Spurgeon as being demonic in any way.
Rather, I see that over his lifetime he spoke much truth and I find little in his sermons or writings that I have disagreed with him over the years.

Would you be a bit more specific on what it is that makes Charles Spurgeon "demonic"...
Was it the doctrines that he preached, or the Scriptures that he used?

Was it the fact that he presented the God of the Bible as sovereign and the Lord of all... and men as the rebellious and corrupt sinners that God's word teaches us that we are...or was it something else?

Please show the reader where Charles Spurgeon was a false teacher and an anti-christ using God's word and establishing that he denied that Christ was come in the flesh ( 1 John 4:1-6 ).

 

These things are false. They are made-up as slurs.



Here's a better background. It's even done by a Calvinist. I would hope that people would take the time to learn rather than swallow your propaganda.

No you don't. You make the words mean what you want. Your KJV clearly says unicorn and meant unicorn. However, you have decided to redefine unicorn as rhino even though this is clearly not what the writers of the KJV meant, nor what unicorn meant during the 1500s, and is still not what unicorn means today. You do this because you won't give up your belief in the KJV. The same goes for cockatrice.

You make words mean whatever you want them to mean in order to support your point.

Charles used the terms Free Agent which he said he believed in and Free Will which he didn't believe in. Of course, a free agent without free-will is a dichotomy which I wonder how Charles gets around.

Neither occur in the Bible.

You missed it. Allow me to point it out more distinctly for you.

Allow me to make it bigger in case you have problems reading.

Charles Spurgeon said, "Philosophy and religion both discard at once the very thought of free-will"

What does the Bible say about this? He denies the God and Savior of the disciples of Jesus to embrace the gods of philosophy and religion, of the Stoics and Pharisees. He doesn't embrace the Bible - he embraces philosophy and religion.

Ok, let's use your paraphrase and counter it with what the Bible says.

John 3:16 NLT
For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

What?! It doesn't say everyone God zaps with grace?!

Romans 10:9 NLT
If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Hey! It doesn't say you will only be saved if God zaps you with grace!

Acts 17:11-12 NLT
And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul’s message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth. [12] As a result, many Jews believed, as did many of the prominent Greek women and men.

What?! Searching scriptures! Where is the Calvinistic Cosmic Lottery Farce?

James 2:19-20 NLT
You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. [20] How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?

John 14:21 NLT
Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.”

I don't know what is meant by "free-will" but a Christian obviously has to do and believe in order to be saved. The Bible is very clear about that.

Charles' Philosophical lecture is not in accord with

John 6:26 NLT
Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, you want to be with me because I fed you, not because you understood the miraculous signs.

Charles' Philosophical lecture is not in accord with

Acts 13:48 NLT
When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.

Charles' Philosophical lecture is not in accord with

Romans 8:6 NLT
So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace.

You asked for it . . .



Charles' Philosophical lecture is no in accord with

Ephesians 1:1 NLT
This letter is from Paul, chosen by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus. I am writing to God’s holy people in Ephesus, who are faithful followers of Christ Jesus.

Charles' Philosophical lecture is no in accord with

2 Thessalonians 2:1 NLT
Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him.

Charles' Philosophical lecture is no in accord with

Psalm 65:1 NLT
What mighty praise, O God, belongs to you in Zion. We will fulfill our vows to you,

As I pointed out, Charles clearly states that he gets his beliefs from Philosophy and Religion.

 

2 Peter 2:12-16 NLT
These false teachers are like unthinking animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed. They scoff at things they do not understand, and like animals, they will be destroyed. [13] Their destruction is their reward for the harm they have done. They love to indulge in evil pleasures in broad daylight. They are a disgrace and a stain among you. They delight in deception even as they eat with you in your fellowship meals. [14] They commit adultery with their eyes, and their desire for sin is never satisfied. They lure unstable people into sin, and they are well trained in greed. They live under God’s curse. [15] They have wandered off the right road and followed the footsteps of Balaam son of Beor, who loved to earn money by doing wrong. [16] But Balaam was stopped from his mad course when his donkey rebuked him with a human voice.

"there are a group of people that know and understand God's word when they hear it, and there are a group that, no matter how much they try, they will never come to that understanding" is not what is stated in this passage.

Interesting enough, Balaam is commonly quoted by Calvinists.

2 Timothy 3:1-5 NLT
You should know this, Timothy, that in the last days there will be very difficult times. [2] For people will love only themselves and their money. They will be boastful and proud, scoffing at God, disobedient to their parents, and ungrateful. They will consider nothing sacred. [3] They will be unloving and unforgiving; they will slander others and have no self-control. They will be cruel and hate what is good. [4] They will betray their friends, be reckless, be puffed up with pride, and love pleasure rather than God. [5] They will act religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly. Stay away from people like that!

Once again, "there are a group of people that know and understand God's word when they hear it, and there are a group that, no matter how much they try, they will never come to that understanding" is not what is stated in this passage.

1 Corinthians 1:20 NLT
So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world’s brilliant debaters? God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish.

This directly describes Charles. A brilliant debater who embraces philosophy and religion.

Do you believe this?

Luke 18:42 NLT
And Jesus said, “All right, receive your sight! Your faith has healed you.”

Do you believe this?

Luke 19:9 NLT
Jesus responded, “Salvation has come to this home today, for this man has shown himself to be a true son of Abraham."

Do you believe in This?

Mark 5:34 NLT
And he said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace. Your suffering is over.”

Do you believe this?

Romans 1:16 NLT
[16] For I am not ashamed of this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes—the Jew first and also the Gentile.

Do you believe this?

2 Corinthians 4:4 NLT
Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

Do you believe this?

Matthew 16:23 NLT
Jesus turned to Peter and said, “Get away from me, Satan! You are a dangerous trap to me. You are seeing things merely from a human point of view, not from God’s.”

Do you believe this?

John 5:39 NLT
“You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!

Do you believe in this?

Jonah 3:10 NLT
When God saw what they had done and how they had put a stop to their evil ways, he changed his mind and did not carry out the destruction he had threatened.

Do you believe in this?

Deuteronomy 30:15 NLT
“Now listen! Today I am giving you a choice between life and death, between prosperity and disaster.

Well? Do you? Without reservation or redefinition? Without adding a cosmic lottery?

I put my faith and trust in a divine Jesus who came in fully human form. Not partially human as the Augustinians believe. I know the Bible states that he was tempted and not fake-tempted like the Calvinists believe. I know he suffered a death he did not deserve to provide me a salvation I do not deserve.

In the first passage, Jesus was talking to all the disciples except Judas.

John 16:13 NLT
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.

"He will not speak on his own" refers to a number of different possibilities but the most likely referring to us is the New Testament we have inherited.

1 Corinthians 2:4 NLT
And my message and my preaching were very plain. Rather than using clever and persuasive speeches, I relied only on the power of the Holy Spirit.

Clever and persuasive speeches like Charles did?

1 John 2:24 NLT
[24] So you must remain faithful to what you have been taught from the beginning. If you do, you will remain in fellowship with the Son and with the Father.

Don't be led into some philosophical belief about a cosmic lottery.

I don't think I've ever seen Charles ever use the Bible. I definitely haven't read all of his speeches, but the ones I have haven't ever quoted or mentioned the Bible.

Charles states in this sermon that salvation is a knowledge test on whether one believes in Calvinism - his philosophical and religious beliefs. Charles denies the cross. Charles denies the real Jesus.

Wesley obviously has his head buried so deep in the sand he doesn't even know who you are talking to.

There is no cosmic lottery in this. Wesley has decided not listen to the Bible while he throws hand grenades over his shoulder at the opposition. He made the choice - no cosmic lottery involved.

If I remember, Wesley has me on ignore because I refused to agree to the slaughter of the Jews by the Muslims.

 

That's just it Wesley You have no scripture that proves God saves men against there wills either. You have no scripture for irresistible grace. None of your doctrines are even listed by name in scripture.
MB

 

I'm not aware of Scripture that says that the person who is the object of God's grace is unwilling when they believe God's word.

But He does save men against their stubborn and rebellious wills, when He opens the heart so that people may "attend" to the preacher's words ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).

John 6:37.
John 6:44.
Ephesians 2:1-10.
Romans 8:29-30.
Acts of the Apostles 13:48.
Acts of the Apostles 2:47.
2 Peter 3:9.
2 Timothy 1:9.
Ephesians 1:3-7.
John 15:16.
Philippians 1:6.
Philippians 1:29.
Philippians 2:13.
2 Corinthians 4:6.
John 6:64-65.
John 17:2.
Romans 9:16.
John 10:28-29.
1 Peter 1:3-5.
1 John 5:1.
1 Thessalonians 1:4.
Romans 9:19.
John 1:13.
James 1:18.

Any Scripture that tells us that God did something even when the sinner was dead in trespasses and sins, shows His grace towards them to be "irresistible", because God has overcome the wicked, God-hating nature that is in all of us, and granted us repentance unto life.

Election is named in Scripture.
That election ( choice ) is clearly stated to be according to His own purpose and grace, not ours as men.

Man being stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart, haters of God, not desiring to come to Christ lest their deeds should be reproved ( "total depravity" ) is named in Scripture.
Christ dying for His people is named in Scripture.
His grace coming upon a person when they are still dead in their trespasses and sins, is named in Scripture.
Christ's sheep persevering in their faith and trust in God and His power, is named in Scripture.

 

No slur intended Marty.
I can't help it if you are hostile to the truth.

If it were intended as propaganda, it wouldn't make you so angry, would it?

You would simply dismiss it out of hand, without getting angry about it.

I'm sorry, sir, but I take the words right off the page, as they are written.

Agreed.

There is no salvation without belief of the Gospel...God does not do the believing for us.
There is no salvation without that believer doing things by faith ( faith without works is dead ).
God does not force a person to do those things against their will.

Then along comes God's perspective and it seems you simply toss that out the window.
That perspective is how and why someone is saved, believes, and has faith...

The reasons behind why we do those things.

No, he didn't.

Allow me to clarify what Spurgeon said, in case you didn't understand it...

He said that "even philosophy and religion have discarded the notion of "free will", so why shouldn't we as believers do the same?".
Read some of his other sermons, and he as much states what the Bible says and calls man's philosophy "vain", in agreement with the Bible.

I've seen his use of the Bible in many sermons.
To me, he speaks many things that "become" ( are suited to ) sound doctrine.

 

I believe everything you posted.

Do you?
It appears so...
Now, I encourage you to rely on the Lord to help you put it all together properly, because to me, you're not doing that yet.

Which leads me to a question:
How long have you been a believer, if I may ask?

Do you understand the context of who this is speaking to and why?

Hint:
It has to do with earthly prosperity and earthly disaster to a people who agreed, of their own will, to obey the Law of Moses.

Don't be led into some philosophical belief about God loving all men and desiring their salvation, but that he stands back and lets us make the final decision.

Furthermore, examine what you've been taught, like I did, from a fuller reading of the Scriptures over years...
Then when you have done that, I will believe that you have investigated it thoroughly.

Until then, all I see out of your hostility is you ignoring the words on the page in many places, and over-emphasizing others without identifying the context...
Exactly as I did for many years.

I believe that Wesley has people like you on "ignore" because you are acting in a caustic and angry manner towards the subject matter, and because you keep posting insulting remarks out of that anger.

Rather than act graciously, you hop on your "I hate all things "Calvinist" horse and beat people incessantly with your disapproval of anything that even hints at God being sovereign over His creation, and holding men responsible for not seeking to glorify Him in all things...
Even though we will never come to Him of our own accord because of our love for sin.

When you begin to treat Wesley as a person, rather than as an enemy to be beaten into submission, I imagine he will take you off his ignore list, as will I.
But the reality of it is, I cannot speak for Wesley...
I can only speak for myself.
So I really do not know why he has chosen to put certain people on ignore.

But I know why I have.

Admittedly, the only reason I even look at your posts half the time, is to see if anything in your behavior has changed.
In the two years I've been here, you haven't appeared to change one bit...

You still post inflammatory remarks designed to hurt people personally, instead of politely disagreeing with them.

 

4 chapters back in Acts of the Apostles 13:48 and several times before that.
See Acts of the Apostles 2:39 and Acts of the Apostles 2:47, for example.

Please allow me to post them for you to consider:

1) Acts of the Apostles 2:39: " For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call."
"This promise is to you, to your children, and to those far away —all who have been called by the Lord our God.” <------ NLT


2) Acts of the Apostles 2:47: " praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."
" all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their fellowship those who were being saved. <---- NLT


3) Acts of the Apostles 13:48: " And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
" When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers. <----- NLT

All that's needed is to believe the words, Marty...
Nothing more.

No propaganda, no sleight of hand...
Just God's words, as they are written.

I'm not aware of any "Calvinist" that says that Christ was "fake-tempted"...
As for the rest, so did I, in 1978.
Let us both rejoice together for His great grace and mercy that He has extended to us.

 

Ditto.

No anger here. You failed at mind reading. Let's try again. I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, what is it?

Find an "Arminian" which agrees with this definition. Can you find one?

That's why it is considered a slander. In giving a "neutral" definition, the other side should agree to it. Otherwise, one is trying to tell the other what they believe and one ends up arguing with straw men. People argue past each other and while they may be facing each other, the people they are arguing with are not there.

Ok.

Of course this is the a distinction. You seem to believe that that our actions "seem" free from our perspective but in reality, our actions are controlled. So, even though the Bible discusses choices, the choices really aren't choices. So the question is "What type of determinism do you believe in?"

There is Compatibilism. This basically means that God zaps certain people with a new nature and they behave like people with a new nature, while others don't get zapped and therefore behave according to their depraved nature. This is more or less what Martin Luther believed.

There is true Calvinism. John Calvin believed in "no mere permission". God doesn't just permit the man to murder and rape the boy, God causes him to do that. Now you and other determinists may recoil about the example, but not John Calvin. This is what John Calvin believed.

And there are other variations of determinism and I really can't guess which one you believe in. But one aspect of determinism is basically the same for all the variations - People really don't have choices. People choose a certain way because of their nature, because God influenced them in one way or the other or God actually causes them to do it.

Yes, he did.

Allow me to point out the common Calvinist belief which may not be your belief but was most definitely Charles' belief. Calvinists believe that if one doesn't interpret scripture the way they do, then that person is not saved and is going to hell. That is was Charles is pointing out and that is why I had to attack what he said.

Tucker Carlson explains it here.